Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

[60BDriver]

So I'm trying to decide which Schmidt & Bender to buy to run primarily on my Steyr SSG 08 (.308) and also on my Steyr Pro Hunter Stainless (7mm Rem Mag).

I've decided on the following options for sure:

MTC (Non-locking USMC style tall turrets)
CCW
MRAD

The problem is two fold. Which reticule to get and which power to get because even though I want the 5-25x56, I don't know if I want to haul that one through the bush, while hunting.

My shooting will primarily be out to 1000 yds with them both for fun and proficiency.

I've considered the 3-20x50 but I just don't like the locking turrets, with the ridge. I know the USMC uses the 3-12x50, which is nice, but I'm not sure that will be enough out to 1000 yds (even though they use theirs out that far). Also, considering the 4-16x50, which might be best as it doesn't have that huge objective lens of the 5-15x56.

Reticules I'm considering now are:

MSR
H2CMR
P4 fine

Mount will be the 34mm Spuhr 1 piece with 0MOA (SSG 08 .308 has a 20MOA pic rail for scope), height TBD.

Please help with decision to go 5-25x56, 4-16x50, 3-12x50, for range shooting out to 1000 yds and then move the scope over for hunting out to 500 yds most likely. Range/Hunting reticule of MSR, H2CMR or P4 fine for both purposes.

I've read a lot on these here. Now I'm fishing for the thoughts on these particular items.

Thanks in advance guys!

'Driver

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Personally, I am running both a 3-12 and a 4-16 PM II on my hunting rifles that aren't wearing Klassiks. The 4-16 reticle choices currently would limit you to the P4F of the choices you have listed. It is about as big as I want to go on any hunting rifle but the image quality is far worth the extra ounces.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

3-12X50 PMII, single turn. This scope is going on my next hunting build. I've had really good luck running straight 10X PMII's as well. Rugged, light, and compact, they work well for 95% of the terrain I hunt out west.

Buck I shot in November with a GAP .260 and 10X42 S&B PMII at 470 yards.

 

[buckey]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Pat,

Did you just recently purchase that 3-12x50 PMII ?? I have been looking for that exact scope for awhile - have been told its a special order item and could take up to a year to get!!

Any info who has these for sale?

Thanks!!

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Those 3-12s are very hard to find. Had one just like it but my gunsmith now has it. Made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

For reference that is just a PMII, not a PMII/LP, PMII/L or PMII/P.

 

[buckey]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Jerry,

Put the word into headquarters - we need more of these 3-12x50 PMII's!!!!!

 

[ccoker]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

I am running a Kahles 3-12x50 K312 II on my 308
Mildot reticle

That power range / size is a good balance point for a dual use gun.

With the great glass of S&B or Kahles you are good at 1K no problem on steel plates..

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

I like the 3-20, lots of magnification, locking turret, same size as the 3-12/4-16, with the good old p4 fine

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Go with the 3-20. You don't have to lock the locking turrets. Just leave them unlocked and its the MTC turret you want. The locking is nice though when you are carrying the rifle slung over your back and dont want to worry about the dials spinning on you.

For reticle get the H2CMR. Get reticle and for the hunting needs the whole reticle illuminates. Not just the center like the others mentioned.

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buckey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jerry,

Put the word into headquarters - we need more of these 3-12x50 PMII's!!!!! </div></div>

If the demand was there you would probably find more of them available. Honestly, the 3-12x50 Klassik is just as good a hunting scope as the PMII with just a little less internal adjustment and the same quality glass.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buckey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pat,

Did you just recently purchase that 3-12x50 PMII ?? I have been looking for that exact scope for awhile - have been told its a special order item and could take up to a year to get!!

Any info who has these for sale?

Thanks!! </div></div>

I picked that scope up used from my bud, Alex Roy. I lucked out.....not a mark on it. It's going on my new GA Precision Extreme Hunter 6.5 SAUM.

 

[buckey]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Great snag Pat!!

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Thanks, Jerry. This is why I asked this. Now I am aware that the reticle choices are limited in some models.

Since you work at SB USA, do you know if the new German Army SB 3-20x50 with the nice magnification ring ridges and that new style locking turret, which moves up and down as a whole, and which shows green dots exposed when the turret is up and unlocked, will ever be available to the public? I presume it is limited due to the laser protective coating on the objective lens.

Is it possible to order a current 3-20x50 with different turrets? Not a fan of the locking "rings". But I see Rob and Opticsspecialist both say go with it.

Is the MSR reticle available in the 3-12x50? On the 3-20?

Also, I understand the "L" is illuminated. No problem. What is "P"/Parralax? I would like FFP and I don't think that is Parralax.

Thank you everyone for the info!

 

[ziggy88]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Here is a good review of the S&B 3-20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itav5Ukpb5Q

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Yes, thank you for the video. Thomas Haugland has great videos. If you aren't hooked on it after watching those, you should be!

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Thanks, Rob. Do you know if the MSR is available in the 3-20?

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Actually, the 3-20s for the German Bundeswehr have an 800 metre single turn BDC elevation and a low profile non-locking windage. The single turn with the green indicators are what I have seen on the 1-8's indicating the unlocked position.

The MSR is available in the 3-20 but not the 3-12 and yes, the "P" does stand for parallax adjustment.

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Ok,

I'm sorry. I knew what parallax was as I have it on my 4-16 varmint. Just haven't shot it in a while.

This Bundeswehr scope is what I was referring to. I watched this YouTube video where he states that it is military only but I like this style of locking turret and magnification ring. If there were an update to the new 3-20 with this locking system I would prefer it. Any chance well see it after the Mayan calander is over?

There was some talk of the illumination adjustment knob being moved to another location for left hand shooters? Is this to happen soon?

Man, this scope decision has proven to be an epic saga. I've gone from...

5-25x56 Horus 59 (meant for gas guns for quick follow up adjustments and not really suitable for bolt guns where recoil is a factor for this second shot)

To

5-25x56 P4fine, which was a good setup but moved to MSR per Thomas Haugland's recommendation (YouTube Norway hunter).

Then was told this big 5-25 was not really ideal for hunting due to the size, so moved to the 3-12 or 4-16, but realized there is a limited reticle choice, back to

The 3-20, which I didn't like due to the ridges on the locking turrets, but which really is an ideal setup based on magnification and 50mm objective!

Geeze!

Maybe I'll just get a 5-25x56 FFP L/P MTC MRAD CCW MSR for the SSG 08 .308 and worry 'bout the hunting rifle later, especially if we see any changes to the 3-20x50 turrets down the road. Any chance of that?

'Driver

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

You're killing yourself man!
I recently put an H58 in one of my 4-16s and it is one of the most practical scopes I could possibly use for both situations you're speaking of. Low profile knobs, great glass and 13.2 MRAD of adjustment if you need to dial. In fact, it's going on my 280 Ackley hunting rifle when it gets it's new barrel and makes it back to me. It could have gotten a 3-20 but its not.

If you're concentrating more on a scope for comps and target shooting you may be better suited with a 3-20 with a P4F or H2CMR which is also a great reticle for hunting. That decision is completely up to you.

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

So, Jerry, you think the Horus is not wasted on a bolt gun? I was very intrigued by the H59 and it was my initial favorite. Many people steered me away from it though, claiming it was really only well suited to the gas guns and was too cluttered for hunting. I really liked the quantitative data in space for holdovers. I was told most will dial in elevation and hold over windage so this wasn't very useful anyway. It seems like a quick reticle if you don't want to dial elevation.

Also, do you know if this is available for order from SB, Germany:

4-16x50 L/P, FFP, CCW, MRAD, MTC (USMC style "tall" dt? with the pup up ring) in an MSR reticle

If this isn't available, I might go with the 3-20. I think the 5-25 is just too much for what I'm going to do.

'Driver

PS Oh, by the way, I spoke to Phil today briefly. I guess you were down-doppler on your way home. Nice guy and fellow ManU fan!

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

The configuration you are asking about is not available anywhere. There is far less internal travel to justify a double turn MRAD knob on the 4-16 considering there is only 19 total.
There is a locking MTC for the 4-16 but is unique in design, unlike the new LT/MTC and again only in single turn.

If Horus reticles don't work on bolt guns I wish someone would have told me. I have them on five bolt guns and have used them for banging steel, punching paper and hunting different species of game.
I have a 58 in a 4-16 on my 22-250 Ackley and made a 663 yd first round hit on a groundhog this past summer. Two days after that another one at 659 with a 243 AI at the same hole with another 58 in a 5-25. My skepticism and concern was always with small targets but I gained confidence quickly after putting time behind them.
Regarding the 59, my 338 has a 5-25 with a 59 and watching impacts are not an issue so second round corrections aren't a big deal. It certainly is not for everyone but works well for others.

They work for me.

 

[stickbow46]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Jerry can you tell me other than the turrets what the difference optically between the Zenith & the PMll's.I didn't want to wait & that's the reason I purchased the 3-12x50 FD#9 Zenith,thanks....Ernie

 

[TorF]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

If you are going to shoot at game offhand in addition to off a bipod I recommend a symetrical reticle. It's easier to get a good shot offhand with a symetrical reticle (regular mildot) compared to a asymetrical reticle like a p4. Only exception is the old no.1, 3 post reticle.

An expert bigbore silhouette shooter, who on a regular basis shoot 30+ hits out of 40 possible, will on average score higher with a mildot scope compared with a p4fine all else being identical. If the scopes have a daylight visible red center dot these differences are eliminated

In Olympic style moving target all top shooters use twin post scopes wich is directly comparable to the old no.1. The reason for this is the psycological effect the reticle have on the shooter. All wobble seems to "calm down" with a heavy post and then you automatically "calm down" even more and it is easier to get off a good shot.

My advice would be to get a regular middot with a redot or red cross center.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

I have found my 3-12 Hensoldt with lit mil-dot reticle to be a very good hunting/tactical combo scope. 3-4 power is nice in the woods and 6-8 power is a nice setting in the open. It also has very good low light performance! I think you would be very happy with the S&B in the 3-12 or 3-20. It would be interesting to compare the low light performance of the two scopes.

 

[Ramius]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

I like the 3-12 S&B. If you are hunting consider looking at the P3 reticle. I find it easier to pick up visually (P4F can get lost).

Used a 3-12 P3 for years at 1000 no problems.

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Jerry,

Can the 3-12x50 PMII be ordered in a P4f or is that the same issue as the MSR?

Latest I got from a SB retailer is the MSR comes in "thick" on the 3-20. Anyone agree with this?

Also, is 3-12 enough for a .308 out to 1k? The USMC Scout Snipers use it but I've heard their new contract is for the 5-25?

Thanks,
'Driver

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go with the 3-20. You don't have to lock the locking turrets. Just leave them unlocked and its the MTC turret you want. The locking is nice though when you are carrying the rifle slung over your back and dont want to worry about the dials spinning on you.

For reticle get the H2CMR. Get reticle and for the hunting needs the whole reticle illuminates. Not just the center like the others mentioned. </div></div>

That's the exact scope my lady just got me for Xmas. It definitely looks like the locking feature could be completely ignored if someone didn't want to use it. The range of magnification is why I wanted this model: I can dial it down to 3x for close surprise shots in the woods, or pump it up to 20x for shooting past 1,000. I chose the H2CMR reticle at the last minute when we got the scope (was originally going to go with the P4F. I went with the H2 since I figured it would be easier to do wind holds with the 0.2 mil hashes, and I liked that more of the reticle was illuminated than with the P4F.

Granted, the P4F and H2CMR can both appear as pretty fine reticles when dialed down to 3x, but that's the price you pay if you want a reticle that isn't overbearing at 20x. A thicker hunting reticle would be decent for a single purpose hunting rifle, but that thicker reticle would bother me for extended range precision shooting. And, again, the illumination feature can help you find the reticle during the twilight hours.

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Thanks, Cop. I love the magnification of the 3-20. Wish I could get that mag in the 3-12 tall turrets. Oh well. H2 looks nice. I still may do the H59 in either the 5-25 or 3-20. I'm limited with rets on the 3-12.

'Driver

 

[MK75]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

The Marine Corps uses the 10x S&B, there may be something to that...

 

[60BDriver]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Does anyone know what the H2CMR stands for anyhoo? My google has come up empty.

MSR is M Sniper Reticle or something, right?

Thanks!

 

[XTREM HTR16]

I managed to find and snag one of the mentioned PMII 3-12x50’s with P3 reticle, no parallax. Still new, unused in box. Weighs 26 oz. I may just replace the 10x42 on my Extreme Hunter with this one.
It has a serial number of 374,xxx. Anyone have an idea of the manufacture date?
Thanks!

 

[lancetkenyon]

Re: Schmidt & Bender for both range and hunting?

Go with the 3-20. You don't have to lock the locking turrets. Just leave them unlocked and its the MTC turret you want. The locking is nice though when you are carrying the rifle slung over your back and dont want to worry about the dials spinning on you.

For reticle get the H2CMR. Get reticle and for the hunting needs the whole reticle illuminates. Not just the center like the others mentioned.

This is the exact scope I have on my 7RM hunting rifle. I love it. Shot my bull elk last year @ 662 with the rifle. I have used it to shoot out to 1656 easily.

 

[Graywolf.260]

I managed to find and snag one of the mentioned PMII 3-12x50’s with P3 reticle, no parallax. Still new, unused in box. Weighs 26 oz. I may just replace the 10x42 on my Extreme Hunter with this one.
It has a serial number of 374,xxx. Anyone have an idea of the manufacture date?
Thanks!

Looks like they still make them? (http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/3-12x50-pm-ii.html)
I picked up an older NIB 3-12x56 Hensoldt a few months ago from Alex that I really like. It's about the same weight as your S&B, with parallax adjustment, illuminated, FFP. It is a bit heavy to haul in the mountains but it's so nice I don't mind.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

I like the 5-20 Ultrashort instead of the 3-20. I shoot the Tremor3 reticle, but if you don't like the clutter, go for the H2CMR. I shoot the T3 in competition, and this combo in the bolt/gas gun swap works great. The scope is short, has lots of magnification range and is my current favorite. With the massive 35 MIL of elevation travel, it will handle anything you throw at it. The 5-20 is around 4" shorter than the PMII 5-25, and would be great for hunting as well as competition.