Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender or NightForce??

[beb0541]

I would really appreciate some advice. I am looking at purchasing either:

1. Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC/LT - Mil-Radian w/ F1 "Klein" Reticle.

or

2. NightForce BEAST F1 5-25x56 Mil-Radian w/ "MIL-R" Reticle.

I am torn on what to do... NightForce is a little less expensive and frankly harder to find, but other than that they seem very comparable. I have several NF scopes and love them. I have never owned or looked through a Schmidt & Bender optic. I would really love some feedback, preferably from people who have used / looked through both optics.

Also, I see Schmidt & Bender offers a tan coating on their optics for an up charge. Is this merely a Cerakote esque paint job or does it improve the performance / longevity / durability of the optic in anyway?

Please advise and thank you in advance.

 

[beenjammin]

The tan paint definitely does not improve anything beyond matching the color of your rifle which in many cases does not match the tan of other rifles like AI.

 

[cramey74]

Out of the two I would choose S&B. I have nothing against the Nightforce, just my personal preference. If you like the tan color of the S&B just have your rifle painted to match and it won't stick out like a sore thumb..

 

[270Win]

I would really appreciate some advice. I am looking at purchasing either:

1. Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC/LT - Mil-Radian w/ F1 "Klein" Reticle.

or

2. NightForce BEAST F1 5-25x56 Mil-Radian w/ "MIL-R" Reticle.

I am torn on what to do... NightForce is a little less expensive and frankly harder to find, but other than that they seem very comparable. I have several NF scopes and love them. I have never owned or looked through a Schmidt & Bender optic. I would really love some feedback, preferably from people who have used / looked through both optics.

Also, I see Schmidt & Bender offers a tan coating on their optics for an up charge. Is this merely a Cerakote esque paint job or does it improve the performance / longevity / durability of the optic in anyway?

Please advise and thank you in advance.

I am NOT an expert but the S&B PM II is a tier one scope the NF Beast is not... the S&B is a superior scope ...they are not in the same league... you might want take a look at the S&B with the MSR reticle

 

[Lowlight]

I am NOT an expert but the S&B PM II is a tier one scope the NF Beast is not... the S&B is a superior scope ...they are not in the same league... you might want take a look at the S&B with the MSR reticle

and how many BEASTs have you used, you guys are comical and I highly doubt you have the first clue. No expert then why are you giving out advice.

Do you just talk to read what you wrote, because other than that I can't make heads or tails out of what you think you know ?

 

[Toast]

I LOVE my BEAST. I don't have a S&B to compare it to though. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Rob01]

Save a $1000 and get the Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56

 

[Lowlight]

Save a $1000 and get the Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56

when they ship...

only cool guys guys like you have them right now.

 

[Rob01]

when they ship...

only cool guys guys like you have them right now.

Well only cool guys like you have BEASTS and Razor IIs

 

[JC Steel]

Well only cool guys like you have BEASTS and Razor IIs

He got you there frank!!!...

I actually think the two are comparable, I had the same exact question of what scope to get. I looked at about every detail. Only thing I dont like is that NF lever and the .2 mil knobs. But in all honesty, that is a training issue more than anything else. It will just take time to master it like anything else.

Man tough question, I like the NF better, and like the reticle options better on the S&B. The h2cmr and msr reticles are both pretty nice.

No answer from me.

 

[USMCCOMBATVET]

I just got a beast a couple weeks ago. In the short time I've had it I have been impressed. I don't have any benders so I can't compare the two but from what I've seen out of the beast I don't think you would be upset with getting it. MIL-R reticle is nice and has a thinner main crosshair than the MSR. Both are reputable companies so you can't go wrong w either. There is a guy selling a beast new on the optics and just dropped the price to $3100. Good luck w your decision. You will have a winner either way.

 

[KWilson]

Save a $1000 and get the Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56

He can spend the spare grand on a gym membership to get massive enough in order to lift the Vortex

 

[Rob01]

He can spend the spare grand on a gym membership to get massive enough in order to lift the Vortex

Yeah the extra 9.5 ounces will probably kill him LOL

 

[Toast]

He can spend the spare grand on a gym membership to get massive enough in order to lift the Vortex

You're just taunting Frank aren't ya? I'm sure you saw his post on the lugging it from the cab of the truck to the firing line of the range and the comical complaints of the extra weight carrying it that far. I'm starting to see Frank's frustration. Although it is amusing!

 

[KWilson]

You're just taunting Frank aren't ya? I'm sure you saw his post on the lugging it from the cab of the truck to the firing line of the range and the comical complaints of the extra weight carrying it that far. I'm starting to see Frank's frustration. Although it is amusing!

Just taking the mickey. I quite enjoyed Rob's writeup on the Vortex and I am also keen to see Frank's writeup on the March 3-24x52. Here in Australia the Vortex enjoys roughly a $600 price advantage over the Beast and about $1500 over an S&B depending on reticle choice. I think for what the Vortex is designed for, the weight disadvantage won't make buggerall difference for what most people will use it for.

 

[sib1948]

I have never been disappointed by any S&B I have owned or used, but cannot say that about any other brand. Nightforce comes in a close second. Really personal preference and budget are most peoples deciding factor, when you get right down to it. Both would probably suit your needs well. Really don't like anything with 0.2 mil clicks-Beast and March FX 5-40X only two I know of. Choice is really yours and you could sell either one, if it turns out you change your mind!

 

[oldfatguy]

No experience with NF or Vortex, but I have used the S&B MSR and H2CMR reticles. Either of those would be my choice over the Klein.

That said, I'd look at the Beast and Razor II.

OFG

 

[ahhshoot]

Sounds like a question with two right answers to me.

 

[00bullitt]

I am NOT an expert but the S&B PM II is a tier one scope the NF Beast is not... the S&B is a superior scope ...they are not in the same league... you might want take a look at the S&B with the MSR reticle

Why is the BEAST not a Tier 1 scope? How are they in a different league?

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I would really appreciate some advice. I am looking at purchasing either:

1. Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC/LT - Mil-Radian w/ F1 "Klein" Reticle.

or

2. NightForce BEAST F1 5-25x56 Mil-Radian w/ "MIL-R" Reticle.

Also, I see Schmidt & Bender offers a tan coating on their optics for an up charge. Is this merely a Cerakote esque paint job or does it improve the performance / longevity / durability of the optic in anyway?

Please advise and thank you in advance.

The tan paint definitely does not improve anything beyond matching the color of your rifle which in many cases does not match the tan of other rifles like AI.

Here is a photo of my RAL-8000 Schmidt and Bender by way of comparing it to the Flat Dark Earth from the boys at GA Precision:

<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/IMG_3214_zps00139dd3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/IMG_3214_zps00139dd3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_3214_zps00139dd3.jpg"/></a>

Yes, it does not match, but then again neither does my sling match my skid plate nor does my skid plate match my ammo card and neither does my ammo card match my shooting mat… and so on a so forth.

I have not been able to compare the Nightforce BEAST to the Schmidt. I have used the Nightforce NXS line and was happy with it, until I got lost in the turrets. But that is really not a fair Nightforce vs. Schmidt and Bender comparison.

I would, however, really recommend the MSR or the H2CMR reticle choices as Jake has. They seem to be the two most popular choices right now. Both very versatile.

 

[270Win]

Why is the BEAST not a Tier 1 scope? How are they in a different league?

I think that the NF Beast is a great scope and I know a lot of research and development has gone into that scope... The Beast could well be a tier 1 scope depending on how an individual defines that label. I withdraw my comment that it isn't a tier I scope.. My apologies to NightForce..

The in a different league comment: I only meant to say that the Schmidt and Bender PMII series was started back in the 90s and has been around and has been tested and proven for years. Schmidt and Bender scopes are used extensively by militaries world wide where as the NF Beast is a new scope and has yet to extensively used and tested and proven.

 

[00bullitt]

I think that the NF Beast is a great scope and I know a lot of research and development has gone into that scope... The Beast could well be a tier 1 scope depending on how an individual defines that label. I withdraw my comment that it isn't a tier I scope.. My apologies to NightForce..

The in a different league comment: I only meant to say that the Schmidt and Bender PMII series was started back in the 90s and has been around and has been tested and proven for years. Schmidt and Bender scopes are used extensively by militaries world wide where as the NF Beast is a new scope and has yet to extensively used and tested and proven.

I will agree that the S&B PMII 5-25 has been the Gold Standard for the past several years and has pretty much been unchallenged......until recently. There are several companies stepping up to the plate with equal or better quality and performance and all will be compared to the S&B 5-25 PMII

 

[jaycoux]

I have compared both, and they are very similar as far as the glass goes. I prefer the MSR reticle to the Mil-R, and I like that the approximate meter is marked as a reference on the SB parallax. Both scopes tunnel, but it is slightly worse on the SB. the BEAST has more elevation than the SB, and this should be noted if you plan on shooting your rig to its limits. That said, with the exception of one 3-12 pmII, I have replaced all my SB scopes with nightforce. I feel like they have the best track record from a reliability standpoint and that is number one in my book.

Not tier one? Give me a break.....

 

[pawprint2]

Based on a Lot of conversations at the shooting club I belong to, I want to throw something into the mix, that may or may be true, as the total sample may not be large enough, but it is held by many shooters that the NF scopes are much less likely to break/need warranty repair etc. Both are undoubtedly top quality, but for me the "works every time" is very a most attractive feature.

 

[beb0541]

Zero clue how Vortex turned up in this thread, as that was not the question I raised. Anyway, HUGE thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to provide your insights! Please keep all the relevant feedback coming!

 

[cramey74]

Based on a Lot of conversations at the shooting club I belong to, I want to throw something into the mix, that may or may be true, as the total sample may not be large enough, but it is held by many shooters that the NF scopes are much less likely to break/need warranty repair etc. Both are undoubtedly top quality, but for me the "works every time" is very a most attractive feature.

The Schmidt & Bender is not reliable? The only valid argument against a Schmidt is cost. All these optic companies coming out with scopes that supposedly compare to a Schmidt always cost less.. Price the Beast or Gen 2 Vortex for 4k and I wonder how many they would sell. I'm not saying I wouldn't own any of these just stating my perspective. A corvette is almost as good as a Ferrari and in a lot of ways it is as good. It is still not a Ferrari.

 

[Rob01]

Zero clue how Vortex turned up in this thread, as that was not the question I raised.

Sorry that was me trying to help you out a little in saving money and getting a great scope at the same time. So you know I speak from experience with one of the scopes you asked about as I have owned 4 S&B 5-25s and a few other 4-16s and 3-12s and find the Vortex glass right there with the S&B and like the features, as in knobs/locking knobs, zeroing and illumination position, better on the Vortex. The only thing the S&B has over the Vortex is the ability to adjust parallax down to 10 meters. The Vortex is down to 32 yards so it's not bad. If you haven't given the Razor II a good look then you might want to as it is right with the two scopes you are looking at.

 

[Jäger Wilhelm]

I'm glad we are still entitled to our own opinions, and we still live in a country where we are free to believe what we what without being attacked for our opinions. Regardless of how some others might view those opinions as uninformed or ignorant And that we still have a free market where we can buy what we want. This 'I am more enlightened than you' smacks of the ideology of those people in the White House right now.

Which scope company is chasing which scope company? To some "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is a pretty strong statement.....

My advice is to do some research, listen what others say and evaluate based on your own needs and resources, hang out at the range and check out the ones you might be interested in, visit a quality shop like EuroOptic, and check them out firsthand. Make up you own mind. Isn't this how many buy other expensive items?

 

[pawprint2]

The Schmidt & Bender is not reliable? The only valid argument against a Schmidt is cost. All these optic companies coming out with scopes that supposedly compare to a Schmidt always cost less.. Price the Beast or Gen 2 Vortex for 4k and I wonder how many they would sell. I'm not saying I wouldn't own any of these just stating my perspective. A corvette is almost as good as a Ferrari and in a lot of ways it is as good. It is still not a Ferrari.

By no means am I saying that a SB is not reliable, however; many believe when it comes to "toughness" and overall reliability the NF is more so. And as I stated, 10-12 guys (owners) is not a large enough sample to make a conclusive judgment with, however; I've heard this from guys I know that aren't "fan boys" ( you know the kind, as they own one they must be the best type idiots) but rather have come to their opinions over a number of years of ownership, and a lot of shooting.

 

[cramey74]

John Snead shot this 10 shot group today @ 1000yds. Short Action Customs rifle and a good ol' out dated Schmidt & Bender. Good job John

 

[pawprint2]

That settles it! I must be mistaken the NF is not as tough as the SB, please disregard any statements to the contrary, and as for rifles, short action customs can not be beat either-all others are second place. Thanks for the post Cramey74!

 

[cramey74]

By no means am I saying that a SB is not reliable, however; many believe when it comes to "toughness" and overall reliability the NF is more so. And as I stated, 10-12 guys (owners) is not a large enough sample to make a conclusive judgment with, however; I've heard this from guys I know that aren't "fan boys" ( you know the kind, as they own one they must be the best type idiots) but rather have come to their opinions over a number of years of ownership, and a lot of shooting.

I certainly am not a "fanboy" nor am I an idiot. I own and have owned a # of Nightforce optics. I sold three on this forum this month. While I love Nightforce and most everything I have purchased with their name attached, I still acknowledge they are not Schmidt and Bender. I don't think that anyone has owned a Beast for years to make a comparison. Anyone who says they are more reliable is a fool.

 

[DT1]

Frank, you have more experience with The Beast than just about anyone. You also have more experience with S&B's than most of us. I'd love to hear specifics as to pros and cons of Beast vs PMII. You have been kind enough to provide us with previews and feedback on The Beast since you received one several months ago but don't believe I've read anything comparing it directly to the PMII.

Rob, same with the new Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56. You have had many years of extensive S&B use before moving to Vortex. Everything I've heard about the new Razor is that it's a player. How does it compare specifically to the S&B PMII?

Maybe these are questions for seperate threads?

 

[pawprint2]

Frank, I took some time and read through a number of post regarding scopes, I saw where you posted 3 of your 4 SB (new) and one old were returned to repair. In your experience which of the two brands NF or SB are more reliable (given the same amount of use etc.)? I know they are both top end scopes, but the probability that they are identical in the reliability dept. is very small.

 

[thrusty]

John Snead shot this 10 shot group today @ 1000yds. Short Action Customs rifle and a good ol' out dated Schmidt & Bender. Good job John

That didn't take long for John's "99" to show up. lol

It was a pleasure watching his scores show up on the laptop while I RO'ed. But in all honesty, John was 110% in the zone for those 2 minutes during that stage. He could have done it with a BSA scope as long as it had enough elevation and actually tracked perfectly.

 

[beb0541]

Frank, you have more experience with The Beast than just about anyone. You also have more experience with S&B's than most of us. I'd love to hear specifics as to pros and cons of Beast vs PMII. You have been kind enough to provide us with previews and feedback on The Beast since you received one several months ago but don't believe I've read anything comparing it directly to the PMII.

Rob, same with the new Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56. You have had many years of extensive S&B use before moving to Vortex. Everything I've heard about the new Razor is that it's a player. How does it compare specifically to the S&B PMII?

Maybe these are questions for seperate threads?

That would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Rob01]

Rob, same with the new Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56. You have had many years of extensive S&B use before moving to Vortex. Everything I've heard about the new Razor is that it's a player. How does it compare specifically to the S&B PMII?

Both have equal glass from not just my eyes but that of 3 other Hide members I have let look through them. Both track dead on, which is most important.

I like the Vortex knobs better. Size, click spacing and the fact they lock. Have had the windage on my S&B turn more than once at a match and cause a missed shot when pulling it off my back. You can get locking S&B knobs but I believe they cost more and they come with an MTC, which I don't care for. Zero stop is set at .5 mils below zero on the Vortex and .6 mils on the S&B. The Vortex zeroing is better in that when you zero you are not using the clicks so you can get a dead on zero and not be a hair high or low. It does involve taking the top cap off and using a screwdriver or the small multi tool provided but it's worth the few extra steps to be right on.

Vortex has 33 mils of internal elevation. The S&B has 26 mils. When zeroed at 100 on my rifle I have 22 mils of up elevation with the Vortex and around 17 mils with the S&B. Both have plenty but if someone was wanting an ELR set up more is better.

The placement of the illumination on the Vortex is also better for lefties and I actually like it better as it's out of the way unless needed.

Size is similar and we all know the Vortex weighs about 9 ounces more but like I have said it doesn't feel any different on the rifle when mounted.

Something people didn't like is the tunneling at the lower end of the S&B power range. Never bothered me but the Vortex doesn't tunnel at all down to 4.5x so you get a good FOV.

As mentioned, the parallax goes down to 10 meters on the S&B, which is nice, and the Vortex goes down to 32 yards. Usually not a problem for most people as most scopes only go to 50 yards.

Reticles, I like the H2CMR .2 mil marks as they make wind and mover holds easy but the .5 mil marks on the Vortex reticles are still very usable as that is what is on the MSR as well. .1 mil marks on the outer edges for ranging on the Vortex reticles is a nice feature, which you also get in the H2CMR between 2 and 3 mil mark only though and on the "L" in the MSR but you also pay more for the MSR.

All in all the only thing i wish the Vortex had that the S&B does is the 10 meter parallax but that's such a small thing I don't worry about it. Any more specific questions just let me know.

Some pics of the Vortex Razor II, S&B and the original Razor i had posted before when getting the scope but the OP might want to see for size comparison. Top to bottom in first pic: Razor II 4.5-27x with 4" sunshade on it, S&B 5-25x with 2.5" sunshade and Razor 5-20x.

 

[Nik H]

Rob,

Do you believe that the weight of the Vortex Gen 2 would shift the balance of my tOBR? It has a 16" barrel. The actual weight doesn't concern me at all. I am picking up my rife next week and have also been pondering what I should put on it. I wanted to be < $3K for scope and mount but know I may have to end up spending more. No dealers that I know of in RI.

BR,

 

[Rob01]

Rob,

Do you believe that the weight of the Vortex Gen 2 would shift the balance of my tOBR? It has a 16" barrel. The actual weight doesn't concern me at all. I am picking up my rife next week and have also been pondering what I should put on it. I wanted to be < $3K for scope and mount but know I may have to end up spending more. No dealers that I know of in RI.

BR,

Shoot me a PM and maybe we can hook up and you can see the scope for yourself and set it up on the rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

If you are asking, "How do they compare" I guarantee your priorities are wrong and you're looking for a solution to problem that is between your ears.

You can't tell the difference, and in today's market it comes down to personal choice and dollars spent. Some feels spending more gives them a greater sense of themselves or shortcuts any potential questions as to "why did you buy that' or when your wife has a dinner party and you're showing your unused Safe Queens to your friends you can proudly proclaim you spent more, otherwise you're not really getting it.

Sure people want to compare stuff for a variety of reasons, but i have found most don't have an idea what those reasons really mean when it comes to their shooting. There is no shortcut, the glass is not gonna make you shoot better as it's 2014 and we have better optics than ever before. Once you can say there was a difference between a $1200 Leupold and a $2400 S&B, but now that exact same S&B is $3600+ and they didn't change the glass. (My first S&B 5-25x cost me $2350 from Tac Pro)

it's all subject to change, just like boots, socks, or jackets, what works for one situation is not enough or overkill for another:

The BEAST on the AX308MC (260)

March on the Gladius

Vortex on a MCM Alias

S&B on a PSR

The bottom line is, get out and shoot... I have a picture of a student last weekend comparing a S&B to NF BEAST and he can't tell the difference... so he wanted the MOAR Reticle as that is what he is using now and made that choice based on "SHOOTING" and not price, name, etc. Sure he looked at both, only because he never saw a BEAST but he knew the NF was the right choice thanks to their reticles.

Glass is highly subjective and if you are gonna look at something designed for 5600k under Fluorescent Light well no shit it will look "off" or dark or whatever. They design the optical prescription for outdoors, not inside SHOT or, well you get it.

 

[STLSteve86]

Schmidt & Bender or NightForce??

You said lowlight.... I chose the atacr with the moar reticle and does everything I need it to do. Now I wish I had the thin reticle when I'm at full mag. I would like to see nightforce have ffp option on existing scope line up but that's just me. Can't go wrong with any NF or S&B

 

[BassSlinger]

I can mail you a quarter... It will help you decide.


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[beb0541]

Beast it is

 

[BassSlinger]

Good choice.


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[fnfan]

Glass is highly subjective and if you are gonna look at something designed for 5600k under Fluorescent Light well no shit it will look "off" or dark or whatever. They design the optical prescription for outdoors, not inside SHOT or, well you get it.

This is very true. The only problem is that there are/were no other options for evaluating the scopes at the time. TT, Beast and Vortex Razor Gen II were all new at SHOT, and there were no outside opportunities to evaluate them. They may have been available at range day, but most people do not qualify for that experience.