Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender PM II Ultra Short: 3-20x50 vs. 5-20x50?

[Jayjay1]

Hello guys,
I´ve tried to search this topic, but I became no results.
So, I´m wondering what the difference between this two scopes is, they seem pretty much the same for me.

Ok, there is a difference in Zoom, slightly in weight and length.
Is there anything else what is different between this two scopes, or do I get something wrong?

Please teach me.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

5-20x50 comes with ILL or NON ILL

3-20x50 only with ILL


5-20x50 more compact on the gun which allows more space on rail for night vision etc

Good for target shooting as not as heavy

German special forces use this


3-20x50 good for police units as it has 3x wider Filed of view than 5-20

3-20x50 less weight

I hope this helps

 

[Jerry R]

I'm running both so I can give you first hand the biggest differences that I've noticed.

Overall length - not a great deal of difference, 3-20 is only 40 mm longer (same length as a 3-12x50 PMII)
Weight - 3-20 is around 73 g heavier (roughly 2.6 oz)

Field of view measurements are substantially different on the low end.
FOV on 3-20 13.0 m - 2.1 m
FOV on 5-20 7.8 m - 2.0 m

Another very noticeable and important difference is how far forward the turret housing is on the 3-20. On a 5-20 this is not an issue but the 3-20 ultra short shares the same distance from the ocular to front ring mounting area as a 5-25. This could create mounting issues on some platforms.
Offset or cantilever mounts will of course alleviate this issue.

 

[Hostile_SS]

great info @Jerry R . I picked up a razor hd for my scar. .. ok . it seemed like a good idea. ended up grabbing a 308 bolt gun and tossing it on there. More scope then it needs. lol.. at I think it weighs more. lol.. (not going hunting.. running, chasing things with it)

looking at a 3-20 or a 5-25. in reality a 4-14 would do ok.

thanks for the insights!!!

 

[Ravenyzf-r6]

In the two I’ve used the 5-20 mag ring was a lot stiffer and the MTC turrets were too stiff to take advantage of the harder click every mil. I like the feel in all regards of my 3-20. If you don’t use rings the 5-20 might need a special mount due to the illumination knob. Only reason to get the 5-20 is if you have to have the shorter overall length. My .02 anyway. Good luck.

 

[Jayjay1]

Hello guys,
thank you, great infos there!

Yes, the 3-20 seems to be the "better" scope, especially the VOV is a word.

The accelerator is a Tikka T3x CTR, 24" in 6.5 Creedmoor.
So the length of the 3-20 would be quite ok, just I don´t like heavy or bulky scopes and do want to be able to shoot it freehand also.

The 3-20 is round about 600 bucks more expenisve over here.
I have to think about if this is worth it for me.


THANKS!

 

[Jerry R]

With regard to the stiff MTC knobs they should all feel the same and that is something that can be taken care of here at the service center.

If a massive FOV is not required the 5-20 is a great scope for a compact system and the non illuminated version poses no mounting issues at all. I found the H59 reticle nearly disappeared in the 3-20 on lower powers and in low light situations. However, the addition of an MSR reticle resolved that problem significantly.

The single turn knob on the 5-20 offers 16.5 mil which in most cases is plenty. Also offered on both models are the 27 mil and 35 mil double turn options. The 27 mil knob has 14 mil on first rev and 35 has 18 on first rev with somewhat finer clicks.

 

[Jayjay1]

Great infos to have, Jerry.

I´ve read elswhere that guys with the 3-20 mention to get an illuminated version, because the dot is necessary for aiming on lower magnification.


P.S.:
After realizing that the 3-20 US and the normal 3-20 PM II are almost the same in length and weight (why is that?), I throw in the normal 3-20 as well, because it is a bit cheaper than the shorter version.

 

[wigwamitus]

I was looking at the 3-20x but reading this makes me think I should add in the 5-20x to the list. I'm look for the ever ellusive "dual purpose" scope, that can be used for hunting as well as long distance shooting as well as dots at 100yds.

So the 3x I like because for hunting I like 3x due to FOV. And most of my hunting/critter control is a night with NV/thermal clipons so the 3x more FOV even more important, since I can't see around the scope with my MK 01 EB as well.

But the weight and length, differences between the 5x and the 3x were not on my radar, now they are. And while I would prefer the 3x for the FOV, I might be able to live with the 5x and gain the 2.6 oz. As one use case would mount this on a "light" .308WIN rifle were every oz counts.

As to dots, 15x is not enough for me to "quarter" the 3/4 or 1/2 dots at 100yds. I can barely do it with 18x, but prefer minimum of 20x for dots. Hence the initial interest in the 3-20x.

==

So thanks a zillion for the data !!! The 5-20x is now on the list as well !!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Jerry let me check his out side by side earlier this year when I was debating which way to go. I left with the realization that they're both great options and it's more about what it's going on. Both had generous eyeball's and similar performance all around, the 3-20 obviously has a FOV advantage on the low end but that's because of the 2x lower magnification on the bottom.

Tossing the low end FOV out because who needs to go below 5x on a precision rifle anyway, the advantage I see to the 5-20 is a little less weight and shorter package, and the 3-20 is mount compatibility.

The 3-20 will work in most any mount as will the non illuminated version of the 5-20, but the illuminated 5-20 you do have to consider mounting if you go one piece. You can't just buy any mount and toss it in it because of the short mounting length. For one piece the only two I'm aware of is the Spuhr SP-4036 which is 1.35" height and the Era Tac Ultra Short which is available in a standard and cantilever and both available with bolts or QD levers. The Era Tac's are all 20moa and around 1.5". If you use standard picatinny rings on a rail then anything will work. Either way not a big deal but just something to consider.

You can't go wrong with either, you just have to decide if one is more right for your application than the other.

 

[Jerry R]

Jayjay1, keep in mind the knobs are also different between the 3-20 and 3-20 ultra short. Standard 3-20 has regular locking MTC and the ultra short has the low profile locking MTC with optional 27 and 35 mil double turn.

Regarding a dual purpose hunting scope, I have an illuminated 5-20 with an MSR on my 338 Edge elk rifle and have had hunted with it quite successfully with never one issue. A non-illuminated 5-20 with H2CMR sits on my 223 Ackley short bolt gun and shots as close at 50 yds can be made with ease.

 

[wigwamitus]

I'm in the T3 reticle camp and yes on my L&S mk6 3-18x T3, the reticle is tough to see at 3x, though I can see the center of the cross hair usually, which is usually enough and the illumination adds a red dot there and then I can see it for sure. And I use the illumination when using a thermal clipon.

But now I am hearing I need to consider mounting issue factors. Cool ! So, my active rifles have spuhr mounts (on 2) and badger mounts (on 2) and those give a lot of flexibility with mounting various NV and thermal clipons and other gadgets. The spuhr actually wins the flexibility battle. So let's say my spec is to be able to use the SP-4006. So I need to study up on whether the illuminated 3-20x T3 and the illuminated 5-20x T3 (both ultra short) will work with the SP-4006. Got it !! Greats details

 

[redneckbmxer24]

the illuminated 5-20x T3 (both ultra short) will work with the SP-4006. Got it !! Greats details

It won't. SP-4036 or the SR-4000 rings only for the 5-20 illuminated.

The SP-4036 is 1.35" height and 0MOA just like the SP-4006, the difference is the rear being portion is modified to clear the illumination housing of the 5-20.

So long as the heigh works for you I would not let buying a new mount be the deciding factor. Spuhr's hold their value very well, you'll be $75 at most out of pocket to get a SP-4036 and sell the other one. When we're talking $4K optics $75 to swap out a mount is a fart in the wind. Also consider that a 5-20 illuminated T3 retails for $150 less than the same 3-20 model.

 

[wigwamitus]

... The SP-4036 is 1.35" height and 0MOA just like the SP-4006

Ok thanks !!

... that height works ... ok the SP-4036 is on the list !!!
The height is critical for me because for some reason the UTCx center is 1.31 whereas the bulk of the rest of the clipon world is closer to 1.5 center. So for me, between 1.3 and 1.4 is ideal then I can play in both directions. So 1.35 height works, like for PVS-30.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Guys, just a heads up, if you need any tech info on S&B Jerry is the go to guy

 

[Jayjay1]

Just because I´m curious.

My accelerator will be the Tikka T3x CTR.
What if I´m deinstalling the Pica-rail and want to use the prism rail (don´t know if this is the correct term), then I could use any single rings and place them wherever the scope tells me to.

Would´nt that work?