Rifle Scopes Schmidt Bender PMII 5-25x56 MTC/LT Turrets

[Flyboy22]

Looking to upgrade and splurge for a S&B 5-25 with H59 for shooting out to a mile (cry once theory). I've read some opinions that the MTC function is difficult to use. What are your opinions on it? I also read S&B can disable it for a small fee--will the turrets feel just like the non-MTC version if disabled?

Second, do any of you feel the locking feature (LT) is necessary? Especially with the Horus, it doesn't seem like there's a great need for that, and I have heard some people say they interfere with a good grip on the turrets.

I know some of this info is elsewhere, but I'd definitely appreciate a few more opinions on the matter. The older all black version of the PMII without MTC and LT is actually much harder to find, so wondering if these "features" are worth the wait to avoid.

 

[jaycoux]

I have used both, and disliked the locking mtc turrets. I sold that scope, which had a H-59 incidentally. I know the original design had some flaws which the company has addressed. I still dont trust them. I did not use the locking feature and thought that the process was somewhat cumbersome.

I would love a 3-20 but i will not buy another s and b scope until they put the old style turret on them.

Jmo.....

J

 

[hk dave]

I personally like MTC when it's done properly. On my Premier, it's easy to go from the big clunk to the little clunks... little more difficult on my S&B. But I've grown accustomed to them.

Never used the locking turrets but they don't bother me.

 

[hk dave]

I know with the Premier you can have the MTC removed... not sure about S&Bs.

 

[cramey74]

I like my MTC turrets. I really can't see what the fuss is about. Having the hard detent at every 1mil makes quick adjustment a breeze. The .1 mil detents are pretty close together but I still don't mind them.

 

[Clusterfrack]

I like my MTC turrets. I really can't see what the fuss is about. Having the hard detent at every 1mil makes quick adjustment a breeze. The .1 mil detents are pretty close together but I still don't mind them.

Same here. With a little practice, I now can dial the X.1 positions without skipping ahead. I like being able to dial in poor light without having to look.

 

[Dogtown]

I think it's something you either get used to or just don't like right out of the box - I was the latter. I get the point of locking MTC turrets if you're doing night raids in harm's way, but as a civilian now enjoying a good weekend shoot or competition, locking turrets are completely unnecessary for me. And since I'm not dialing under zero illum either, MTC is also unnecessary and kind of annoying. I just wish it were an option instead of the new standard with PMII scopes.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Honestly I don't see what the big stink is over the MTC turrets, but that may be because I have played with them a fair bit on my S&B. Yes, if you are dialing fast you can skip that first one after the big click, but honestly you can do that even with the non-MTC turrets. If I am being deliberate about the adjustment I can make the first one after the big click. In the end it comes down to personal preference and mine happen to be for the MTC.

 

[Falsecrack]

I have the MTC (non locking) on mine. While I do find it a little challenging to dial exactly to the .1 mils, I'm hoping this will change with more use. I don't shoot competitions, so speed (dialing) isn't that big of a deal for me. Honestly, once I'm at the range, I don't even think about it.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I have the full S&B 5-25x56 with MTC, LT and even in tan. I have no regrets.

The locking turrets are more than just the locking feature. They revolutionized the zero'ing process. No longer does one follow the directions in the manual. All you have to do to zero the scope; Mount the scope and then zero the scope after shooting it; Then lock the turrets; Loosen two of the available three set screws; Unlock the turrets and turn the turrets until you get zero stoppped on elevation and back to "0"; Turn the windage knob to the MTC "0" on the windage. Lock the turrets and the retighten the set screws. The scope is zero'd and the zero stop is set. MUCH easier than the earlier versions.

As for the MTC, I love it. I can operate the turrets at night if I need to, and in a hurry, the zero stop for windage is very useful. You just get used to the clicks. Besides, once the scope is mounted, you have a lot more leverage and they are not as distracting. A lot of reviewers have fondled a S&B and complained. People who use it on a regular basis enjoy the feature.

My own opinion regarding HORUS reticles really do not apply to me. I just would never want to count down then over so many times. Better to set the elevation with the turret and then gauge the wind with the reticle. Might I suggest the MSR reticle?

 

[RonboF117]

We've had the S&B PSR with H-59 for a little over a year and it's a solid scope. The individual clicks (at least on ours) is nothing like the Kahles 624i which I feel are probably the best. However, if you're using the H-59 you shouldn't really have to worry about dialing too much. Having the S&B next to the 624i and doing a lot of dialing, you appreciate the MTC function. It makes counting WAY more easy and precise if you have a number of mils to crank. If it's only a few tenths, the Kahles is easier to count with (especially with gloves). There is a reason that S&B is the one to beat because everything about it works well. Jerry had to do some very minor work for us and he was great to work with and very fast.

 

[Flyboy22]

The locking turrets are more than just the locking feature. They revolutionized the zero'ing process. No longer does one follow the directions in the manual. All you have to do to zero the scope; Mount the scope and then zero the scope after shooting it; Then lock the turrets; Loosen two of the available three set screws; Unlock the turrets and turn the turrets until you get zero stoppped on elevation and back to "0"; Turn the windage knob to the MTC "0" on the windage. Lock the turrets and the retighten the set screws. The scope is zero'd and the zero stop is set. MUCH easier than the earlier versions.

Just to be clear, this allows you to reset the zero detent (and thus the 10 mil increments) after you zero the rifle? In other words, you are always working up or down from your zero and the clicks correspond to the correct increments? Is this not possible with the regular turrets?

I honestly haven't gotten to actually use a Horus before, but the concept seems like it would allow quick/accurate holds as well as accurate follow up corrections (as opposed to guesses). Why do you specifically like the MSR?

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Just to be clear, this allows you to reset the zero detent (and thus the 10 mil increments) after you zero the rifle? In other words, you are always working up or down from your zero and the clicks correspond to the correct increments? Is this not possible with the regular turrets?

I honestly haven't gotten to actually use a Horus before, but the concept seems like it would allow quick/accurate holds as well as accurate follow up corrections (as opposed to guesses). Why do you specifically like the MSR?

I am not sure I understand your questions, but let me clarify nonetheless. Once you zero the rifle, then you reset the zero stop. The MTC clicks always correspond to your "zero" mark and then each 1.0 mil radian. The "zeroing" process is much easier with the Locking turrets. If you ever read the instructions for "zeroing", then you will understand how much easier my instructions are.

The HORUS reticle is mostly for preference. It also greatly depends on what type of shooting you will be doing. I use my MSR reticle for competitions, where I know the distance, and then for unknown distances, which will occur when I do some of the sniper competitions. The MSR reticle is REALLY good for ranging purposes. It also is really good for correction of shots. This video is what sold me on the reticle: Longrange blog 23: MSR reticle - YouTube

You can also read a lot of information here: Schmidt Bender MSR special reticle - FinnAccuracy

The HORUS reticle is great I am sure, but I would never use it. I would also dial in my elevation and then do wind hold overs. I would really recommend looking through one of these scopes first if you can. None of the 30 odd competitors in our rifle club use the HORUS reticle.

Hope this information helps.

 

[hk dave]

All your explanations sound difficult.

-Zero S&B Turret: Shoot until you find the proper zero. Lock the turret and loosen screws in the turret then unlock the turret. Turn turret to zero then tighten those same screws. You are done.

So for example... when finding your zero... you shoot and have to make an adjustment to the turret to 1.8 mil... if you are satisfied there, you lock the turret, unscrew the set screws, unlock your turret, turn the turret to zero, then tighten those set screws again. You're done.

The MTC always stays at 0, 1 mil, 2 mil, 3 mil. It will never become say... 1.3mil or 2.7mil. So no matter what ends up being your zero... 0, 1 mil, 2 mil, 3 mil will always have the heavier detents.

Hope this clears it up.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

All your explanations sound difficult.

-Zero S&B Turret: Shoot until you find the proper zero. Lock the turret and loosen screws in the turret then unlock the turret. Turn turret to zero then tighten those same screws. You are done.

So for example... when finding your zero... you shoot and have to make an adjustment to the turret to 1.8 mil... if you are satisfied there, you lock the turret, unscrew the set screws, unlock your turret, turn the turret to zero, then tighten those set screws again. You're done.

The MTC always stays at 0, 1 mil, 2 mil, 3 mil. It will never become say... 1.3mil or 2.7mil. So no matter what ends up being your zero... 0, 1 mil, 2 mil, 3 mil will always have the heavier detents.

Hope this clears it up.

Thank you for clearing that up. Yes, my explanation was confusing. Thank goodness the scope is simple to use. The big reason why bought it, to reduce mistakes under pressure situations.

 

[Flyboy22]

Sounds good, I'm tracking on the zeroing process. But now you have me second guessing my reticle choice... And in this case, I obviously can't get both!

I've seen that video on the MSR, as well as Magpul's Art of the Precision rifle series. You say most guys aren't using the Horus, yet some very good shooters like Todd Hodnett can't seem to stop gushing about it. The MSR seems like a great reticle, but don't follow up corrections get more difficult when you start dealing with 10ths of mils? (ie. 1000 yards plus). I can understand the clutter argument for combat though, especially in high stress. On the other hand, I probably won't be using it for that.

I wish I could find a place in Alaska that has an optic with these reticles. It would certainly be nice to see it for real before committing 4K!

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Sounds good, I'm tracking on the zeroing process. But now you have me second guessing my reticle choice... And in this case, I obviously can't get both!

I've seen that video on the MSR, as well as Magpul's Art of the Precision rifle series. You say most guys aren't using the Horus, yet some very good shooters like Todd Hodnett can't seem to stop gushing about it. The MSR seems like a great reticle, but don't follow up corrections get more difficult when you start dealing with 10ths of mils? (ie. 1000 yards plus). I can understand the clutter argument for combat though, especially in high stress. On the other hand, I probably won't be using it for that.

I wish I could find a place in Alaska that has an optic with these reticles. It would certainly be nice to see it for real before committing 4K!

I respect Todd's opinion, but you have to ask, what is he being paid, if anything, to make those comments. I know only one or two actual snipers, and they like the reticle. I believe that the reticle was used at the 2009 Fort Benning International Sniper Competition. But I never spoke with any of those guys. I am not saying anything bad about the HORUS reticle, just what I know.

In regards to the follow up shots, you can always use the fine reticle scale on the lower left hand corner as well for getting to the nearest .1 Mil radian. That is what I did when I zero'd the scope. The fine reticle scale is really helpful in a lot of situations.

It is a tough choice. Good luck and enjoy the scope, whichever reticle you get. You will like the Schmidt and Bender scope. I love mine, and it is the only scope I will purchase for the next 10-15 years, so the investment is worth it.

 

[Clusterfrack]

I have a scope with an H37 and its a significant advantage when I need to hit multiple targets at varying ranges. Followup shots are so easy, and when my partner uses the same reticle, it speeds his shot calls up too.

I recently got a SB with locking MTC and an MSR. It is excellent--especially on my .260 because my wind holds are so much smaller that I don't need the whole Horus tree if I don't want to dial windage.

I am glad to have put in some time on the Horus system. Is it "better"? No. Just different, and it can be better for some specific situations. MSR is a more traditional reticle that also has a good ranging subreticle. I like it!

 

[Flyboy22]

Alright fellas, I think you convinced me, after some more reading. I'm gonna go with the MSR reticle and press. I also think I'll get the MTC... I suspect the naysayers are actually the minority based on what I'm gathering from here and other places.

So my last point of debate are the Locking Turrets. Is it really that hard to zero with non-locking ones? (I did actually read the PMII manual, but it's kind of hard to visualize without having the scope in front of me). I kind of want the black color (superficial, but whatever), and I also like the extra grip on the non-locking turrets.

Also, does anyone know of any banks with poor security?

 

[Rob01]

Save a couple hundred dollars and get the H2CMR reticle. Does everything the MSR will and the whole reticle illuminates
.

 

[Flyboy22]

Pulled the trigger! Black 5-25x56 MSR w/MTC & the Bobro QD mount. Thanks fellas for the advice, can't wait to start enjoying the investment of good glass.

 

[Clusterfrack]

Congrats Flyboy! Send pics when it arrives.

 

[Flyboy22]

Congrats Flyboy! Send pics when it arrives.

Not the rifle this scope will eventually go on (GAP 6.5 Creedmoor), but still awesome to try out.

My only complaint is the eyebox is remarkably small... At high power it feels like there is literally one exact spot the image can be viewed clearly--almost any movement causes shadowing or distortion. Is this normal for a high power scope?

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

My only complaint is the eyebox is remarkably small... At high power it feels like there is literally one exact spot the image can be viewed clearly--almost any movement causes shadowing or distortion. Is this normal for a high power scope?

The small eyebox is normal for scopes with high magnification. This actually is a good thing, since you do not want to have movement in your point of aim at long distances. Any movement of your head relative to the scope will change your point of impact.

I am glad this is going on a GA Precision rifle. That is a deserving home for such a nice scope. Great job Flyboy. Now what we need is some group shots and your impressions after using the scope for about a month.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Yeah, they do have a pretty small eye box. Honestly I don't notice it when out of the house with the scope though. Good to know that it will fit in a Bobro mount should I ever choose to change scopes around.

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Yeah, they do have a pretty small eye box. Honestly I don't notice it when out of the house with the scope though. Good to know that it will fit in a Bobro mount should I ever choose to change scopes around.

Its been our best selling QD mount. Glad to see everything made it Flyboy22!

If you want to pick one of these up for that X-300 let me know.

 

[Flyboy22]

The small eyebox is normal for scopes with high magnification. This actually is a good thing, since you do not want to have movement in your point of aim at long distances. Any movement of your head relative to the scope will change your point of impact.

I am glad this is going on a GA Precision rifle. That is a deserving home for such a nice scope. Great job Flyboy. Now what we need is some group shots and your impressions after using the scope for about a month.

I'll get back to you on the one month impressions, but here's my first two 5 shot groups @100 yds after switching over to match ammo... My first time shooting sub-moa for 5 shots with this rifle! Also the first time it got to shoot 77gr SMK, which helps.




The 2nd one looks like 4, but I swear it was 5... unless I missed the target completely. I even counted all the other bullet holes from the 20 rnd mag to make sure I wasn't going crazy. Pretty sure 2 shots went through the same hole.

Even though it's not a precision barrel or caliber, sure is awesome to get behind such good glass. Can't wait to stretch out the distance a bit.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

The 2nd one looks like 4, but I swear it was 5... unless I missed the target completely. I even counted all the other bullet holes from the 20 rnd mag to make sure I wasn't going crazy. Pretty sure 2 shots went through the same hole.

I am sure two bullets went through the same hole. When you get your GAP rifle you will get stuff like this:

<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg"/></a>

That is a 4 shot group at 100 yards.

Congratulations and welcome to precision riflery.

 

[JL]

Save a couple hundred dollars and get the H2CMR reticle. Does everything the MSR will and the whole reticle illuminates
.

No it doesent...

 

[Flyboy22]

That's awesome man. When I was zeroing the scope at 25 yards I was thinking to myself... this is what it must feel like to actually be a really good shooter at 100 yds

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

No it doesent...

Thank you Finn Accuracy for chiming in regarding the MSR reticle you designed.

However, I TOTALLY AGREE. The MSR reticle is twice the reticle of the H2CMR. And I speak from personal experience.

 

[MikeD987]

Pulled the trigger! Black 5-25x56 MSR w/MTC & the Bobro QD mount. Thanks fellas for the advice, can't wait to start enjoying the investment of good glass.

Yes I wanted to black one too. However I went with the tan. My plan is to try to get black turret caps from S N B and than spray it with black plastidip. Not sure if it's going to work but that's how bad I want a black one too other than that nasty tan.

 

[JByrd]

I had one of the first locking 5-25 mtc's in h2cmr out in the regular market. I played with that thing for a couple of days solid trying to talk myself into liking the mtc knobs and just couldn't do it. the detents were just tooo heavy to me. I reeeeeeally wish Schmidt would offer to put a reduced spring wt behind the mtc detent or slightly round the deep notch it falls in to make it a lil less heavy of a detent however they choose to skin it. they offer to take the mtc out so im sure they could do it for the same amt. of labor. maby just drop a coil off the spring. just throwin ideas out there JERRY R

the locking turrets are AWESOME and I believe the best in the market hands down no question.

I took robs advice and several other SB owners/local to me match shooters and got the standard double turns when I traded the MTC in. however, I strongly disagree on the h2cmr vs msr. the h2cmr is a royal pain to mil with to me "again my opinion" the MSR is easy peasy to mil with you don't have to break down the circle it give you .1 break down of a mil with a nice definitive mil starting spot in stead of the 1 mil starting point floating in the middle of a circle on the h2cmr. the .2's are great however for movers but I have never ever once said to myself if only ida had the h2cmr I woulda cleaned that mover stage (; no comment from my buds "you know who yall are"

mil a 1.1 on the horizontal line above its freaking annoying try some different numbers and you may quickly get aggravated with the circles as I did or you a white collar office dude and and im a hillbilly and should just take my shoes off and get back to counting.

lastly id go with the 5-25, I can always turn my 5-25 dn to 20x but you can never turn a 3-20 up to 25 and it does make a difference "to me" sometimes.

these are just my personal experiences, I hope this helps ya make your decision. I really really really love my pmII and am very glad I got it while I could still afford one. I would totally buy another one right now if could afford it. they are getting crazy expensive

 

[Rob01]

LOL Yeah it's hard to get 1.1 mil. It's the edge of the circle. It's very easy. Reticles are personal preference but after using the H2CMR for a feew years now I can do anything with it you can do with any other reticle and alot of stuff much easier. You mentioned movers and some people do miss due to not finding their proper mil hold. The first time I shot the H2CMR at a 500 yard mover on a 6" plate I almost felt like I was cheating. When the plate dropped in between the two .2 marks in my hold I pressed the trigger and hit every time. Like you this is my opinion.

JL, sorry when I said the whole reticle I meant the whole usable part as in the 5 mils. Not the small .5 mil center like the MSR. I have used the P4F with this illumination to try and shoot night movers at a match and it was very difficult. The illumination on the H2CMR is much easier to use if you need illumination. The MSR reticle is good as is the P4F and gives more hold over than the 5 mils of the H2CMR. The mil "L" in lower left quadrant is nice and will allow for accurate miling of targets but it breaks down to .1 mil which you can also do with the H2CMR and the H2CMR will allow you to use those fine break downs to make shots as well as miling. The rapid target stadias in the lower right are nice for military snipers but most of the people here buying the reticle won't use them. The P4F has had them for years and people didn't use them.

I am just giving my opinion and we don't shoot for S&B any longer and I don't get a dime no matter what anyone buys. Just trying to help people making a decision. Doesn't hurt my feelings if someone wants a MSR over a H2CMR. I didn't design either. Just use it.

ETA an actual picture of the reticle. The diagram above is horrible to get an idea of what it looks like. As you can see from the pic the breaking down of the reticle is fairly easy.

25x at 400 yards. 8" round steel


20x


15x


10x

 

[JByrd]

top picture, far left rectangle. talk through milling it where it is positioned, and what is your mil read on it


my point is the middle notches are .2's and at the end notches by the circle are .1's unless your start measuring point is beginning from floating in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the circle and your adding all this up under time on multiple targets instead of

MSR put edge of target at beginning of milling grid counting .1,.2,.3,.4 and splitting the last and getting a very quick , very fast , very accurate mil

with out having to brake down am I on the inside or outside of the open circle and taking into accout that the other edge of the target is either floating hopefully in the dead center of the open circle "beginning of the 1mil" or if you are at the edge of the circle to have a soild starting point backing out that the first hash is only .1 not .2 all this under time of course on multiple targets. again... my opinion

24" target x27.78 div .9 equals 740 yds
24" target x 27.78 div .95 equals 701 yds 40 yds difference just by a .05 error , I want the easiest tightest measuring tool I can get, I don't wanna have to mess with having to break down the circle.
the list of comps with a night mover is a very very short list.

we've had this debate before and I still stand by my original opinion.

 

[MikeD987]

LOL Yeah it's hard to get 1.1 mil. It's the edge of the circle. It's very easy. Reticles are personal preference but after using the H2CMR for a feew years now I can do anything with it you can do with any other reticle and alot of stuff much easier. You mentioned movers and some people do miss due to not finding their proper mil hold. The first time I shot the H2CMR at a 500 yard mover on a 6" plate I almost felt like I was cheating. When the plate dropped in between the two .2 marks in my hold I pressed the trigger and hit every time. Like you this is my opinion.

JL, sorry when I said the whole reticle I meant the whole usable part as in the 5 mils. Not the small .5 mil center like the MSR. I have used the P4F with this illumination to try and shoot night movers at a match and it was very difficult. The illumination on the H2CMR is much easier to use if you need illumination. The MSR reticle is good as is the P4F and gives more hold over than the 5 mils of the H2CMR. The mil "L" in lower left quadrant is nice and will allow for accurate miling of targets but it breaks down to .1 mil which you can also do with the H2CMR and the H2CMR will allow you to use those fine break downs to make shots as well as miling. The rapid target stadias in the lower right are nice for military snipers but most of the people here buying the reticle won't use them. The P4F has had them for years and people didn't use them.

I am just giving my opinion and we don't shoot for S&B any longer and I don't get a dime no matter what anyone buys. Just trying to help people making a decision. Doesn't hurt my feelings if someone wants a MSR over a H2CMR. I didn't design either. Just use it.

ETA an actual picture of the reticle. The diagram above is horrible to get an idea of what it looks like. As you can see from the pic the breaking down of the reticle is fairly easy.

25x at 400 yards. 8" round steel


20x


15x


10x

Rob,

When are you coming out with a YouTube video on how to use the H2CMR?

 

[Flyboy22]

So I made the drive to a 300M range today It's my first time ever shooting at >100 yards, but after a few growing pains (and 600M walks to inspect my targets), I had some success!








Definitely proud of that last one, especially out of a semi-auto AR with a CHF barrel. Made possible by my new PMII

 

[Flyboy22]

I'm sure you experienced guys will laugh... but since I'd never shot at >100 yards I wasn't too sure about how to get a firing solution at 300M. I downloaded Litz's Applied Ballistics app for Android and entered the data for my rifle and ammo to the best of my ability. After about 10 expensive rounds of match ammo and no visible hits, the range was closing for the day. As I picked up my targets I realized they had hit about 9 inches low, off my target entirely. After a little pondering, I came to the conclusion I must have given Applied Ballistics some bad data. The fact is, I haven't chrono'd the match grade ammo, so I "guestimated" muzzle velocity based on the specs on the box. Later that night, I decided to adjust the zero muzzle velocity and powder temp until the correction it provided matched my real world results. Essentially, I did some bastard math to "true" the solution, packed up my stuff, and hit the range again today. Evidently, it worked

But yes, I will be purchasing a chronograph. And a Kestral, laser rangefinder, and spotting scope. Eventually. You know, this hobby is expensive.

 

[Rob01]

Rob,

When are you coming out with a YouTube video on how to use the H2CMR?

It's a simple but effective reticle. Not really a need as long as you know the sub tensions and know how to break down the reticle.

Pro glad you are happy with the MSR. Enjoy. You are happy with it is all that counts. The pics weren't set up for miling but for showing reticle only. The target you mentioned would be pushed into the verticle crosshair and the mil reading read off the .2 mil marks if i was actually miling it. Simple and fast. Using a reticle is all about breaking it down to it's smallest sub tension. I can break the H2CMR to .05 mils simply as I have practiced with it. No need for another graph off the reticle. Also makes much more accurate shots when using the reticle for holds for wind or movers.

 

[JByrd]

Fair enough, so as a general you try to stick to the center and work off that and where ever the other edge falls it falls?

I just always found myself tryin to trap at least one edge by a .1 section and would just get frusrated.

The staggered left/ rt .1's on the vert are perfect and i wish a section of them was included in every optic for LR on vert and horiz

 

[Rob01]

Generally but if I want to be very specific I will use the area broken into .1 mil marks and set bottom of target on the top of the dot. Works very well and very accurate.

 

[varmint slayer]

You have me thinking hard about the H2CMR Rob. I like the idea of .2 mil wind holds. .5 mil (like on the MSR and other reticles) to me just seems like it would be tough to try and guess .2, .3 mil holds at distance on MOA sized targets and be accurate and repeatable. I may be over thinking that but I haven't shot a mil reticle with .5 mil sub tensions. What say you [MENTION=70]Rob01[/MENTION]

 

[Rob01]

The .5 mil marks work and with practice you can be pretty accurate with them in breaking down the reticle but with the way the H2CMR is broken down it just makes life easier for the shooter. My first scopes were the old mildots and nothing in between and you really had to work. The .5 mil marks are much better but I feel the .2 mil marks matched with the hollow dots are about perfect. It's such an easy reticle to use for holds, which is most important or miling, which lets be honest is is going the way of the dodo with LRFs being so prevalent. Still a good skill to know and practice though.

 

[varmint slayer]

The .5 mil marks work and with practice you can be pretty accurate with them in breaking down the reticle but with the way the H2CMR is broken down it just makes life easier for the shooter. My first scopes were the old mildots and nothing in between and you really had to work. The .5 mil marks are much better but I feel the .2 mil marks matched with the hollow dots are about perfect. It's such an easy reticle to use for holds, which is most important or miling, which lets be honest is is going the way of the dodo with LRFs being so prevalent. Still a good skill to know and practice though.

Yeah I figure with some time a guy could get good at guessing where .2, .3 ect is as there are a lot of top guys using reticles with only .5 sub tensions.

So looking at your pictures Rob it appears that the .2 sub tensions are still pretty defined even at lower mag. Is that a fairly true statement and the pics aren't playing any tricks on my eyes?

 

[Rob01]

Yeah they are pretty visible even at lower magnification. Also that's one of the reasons I like the hollow dots as well as they stick out more to the eye than the lines at lower magnification. I always liked the hollow dots in the NF scopes but they didn't offer any marks between them.

 

[varmint slayer]

Yeah they are pretty visible even at lower magnification. Also that's one of the reasons I like the hollow dots as well as they stick out more to the eye than the lines at lower magnification. I always liked the hollow dots in the NF scopes but they didn't offer any marks between them.

Cool. Well thanks for the input Rob. I think I'm going to order up a 5-25 with H2CMR here soon. If I don't like it it's your fault lol

 

[Rob01]

LOL Well I have gotten blamed for worse but I think you will like it. Practice with it and learn it.

 

[Flyboy22]

LOL Well I have gotten blamed for worse but I think you will like it. Practice with it and learn it.

Hijacker! lol

 

[MikeD987]

It's a simple but effective reticle. Not really a need as long as you know the sub tensions and know how to break down the reticle.

Pro glad you are happy with the MSR. Enjoy. You are happy with it is all that counts. The pics weren't set up for miling but for showing reticle only. The target you mentioned would be pushed into the verticle crosshair and the mil reading read off the .2 mil marks if i was actually miling it. Simple and fast. Using a reticle is all about breaking it down to it's smallest sub tension. I can break the H2CMR to .05 mils simply as I have practiced with it. No need for another graph off the reticle. Also makes much more accurate shots when using the reticle for holds for wind or movers.

I'm a total noob still trying to figure it out. The manual is confusing. Just figure you could share some of your expertise.

 

[Rob01]

I'm a total noob still trying to figure it out. The manual is confusing. Just figure you could share some of your expertise.

Sorry Mike. Biggest thing you need to do is learn to break down the reticle. With the H2CMR it makes it easy. The .2 mil marks on the horizontal make it easy to break down into .1 mils and with practice to .05. The hollow dots are .2 mils across so the center is the full mil mark. either end is .1 mil so if you need .9 mils for a wind hold the center of target will be on the edge of the dot.

On the vertical there are the same hollow .2 mil dots as well as .5 mil marks. For fine measurements between 2 and 3 mils there are .1 mil marks. The easiest way to use these are to set the bottom of target on the top of the 2 mil dot so you are actually at 2.1 mils and then just use the marks to measure. Between the marks is .05 mils so you can see how accurate it can be.

It might sound a little confusing when starting using a mil based reticle but go to the range and practice. You don't need long ranges or even UKD targets to learn how to use mils and break down the reticle. You can do it at a 100 yard range. Put up different suze pieces of cardboard and then mil them. Do the formula and if you are off go back and look where your mil reading was off. Maybe you thought it was .4 mils and when you go back and look you see it's .3 mils. You learn how to break the reticle down by doing this. It's not exciting and you don't even fire shots but it's important not just for ranging targets but knowing how to break the reticle down for wind, mover or elevation holds.

Here are some pics of the cardboard I keep in my truck to use for practice. Nothing fancy.