What is happening to Schmidt bender in the USA? I see a lot of vendors are not carrying them just checked on a few sites like midwayusa etc.
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Rifle Scopes Schmidt bender
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It seems S&B are taking a giant waste deposit in the bed of their vendors & customers, but nobody in the know seems to want to come out and say exactly what the aroma is...
There are several threads going about it.
There are several threads going about it.
Oooh I wonder if someone is blowing out 5-20 ultra shorts. I’ve been wanting one for sometime.
If you find someone, let me know. I need one for a hunting rifle.......at a great price of course.
873-911-962-F1-E8 5-20X50/P4F CM CCW BLACK NON ILL ULTRA SHORT $2,385.00
I saw that. Hoping for a different reticle. 
thanks for checking in though Doug.
thanks for checking in though Doug.
Maybe their price hike has finally got to them. I have always wanted one but the prices were insane. Ended up with a ATCR for way cheaper. Money I save went to ammo.
You think their bad now....have you seen how far into the stratosphere Hensoldt has gone
If that is true, expect the pricing to be even worse than it is now. Scheels isn't exactly famous for their low prices. Although, I think they do have some type of internet price match deal where they will give you the same price if you find it for cheaper on a legitimate innerweb site.
I’m pretty sure euro optic is now the sole distributor.
This move isn’t that surprising, or even a bad thing. All sorts of manufacturers have dedicated distributors, especially international manufacturers.
There’s a guy that works for S&B his name is Jerry I don’t remember exactly what his screen name is I am sure somebody else does maybe he could chime in and shed some light.
Jerry is one of the many reasons S&B is still a good choice here in the States. If it wasn’t for him and the US service center, S&B would be a spec of dust here.
His username is Jerry R
He wouldn’t particularly need to shed light on this though as any of the vendors can confirm the same I believe. They know when their supply chains get altered!
His username is Jerry R
He wouldn’t particularly need to shed light on this though as any of the vendors can confirm the same I believe. They know when their supply chains get altered!
We have been S&B dealers for over 2 decades and as of this morning we are returning all in stock inventory and ending our long relationship with S&B. (All existing special orders will be filled)
S&B has decided to give sole USA distribution to EuroOptics and expect all USA authorized dealers to buy from Euro. We, and most other S&B dealers, have decided to cut ties with S&B and let them see how badly they have shot themselves in the foot with this decision to give 1 retailer control of their brand and a monopoly.
To the best of my knowledge, at least for now, S&B is keeping their tech guys in VA. Hopefully they will see how important it is for them to directly support the product.
S&B has decided to give sole USA distribution to EuroOptics and expect all USA authorized dealers to buy from Euro. We, and most other S&B dealers, have decided to cut ties with S&B and let them see how badly they have shot themselves in the foot with this decision to give 1 retailer control of their brand and a monopoly.
To the best of my knowledge, at least for now, S&B is keeping their tech guys in VA. Hopefully they will see how important it is for them to directly support the product.
Thanks for the update.
So I'm guessing their plan may be to basically give one party a sales monopoly in exchange for forcing higher prices and not giving any discounts and seeing if they can squeeze the civilian market for anything they can to make up for less military sales?
I really like S&B scopes, but a big part of my like for them was value for the money and once upon a time they were head and shoulders quality above the rest & at a decent cost. Now they are more in the middle of an expanding pack of similar quality brands, so I'm not sure how their huge price hike ideas will go for them.
I guess this would be a better question for the guys over at EuroOptics on the board here, to see what their plans are and what they have agreed to do in order to get the sole vendor position. I wonder if @jb1000br has any insight into what they plan to do price/inventory wise now that they are the only game in town for new S&B scopes? I bought my last S&B scope, the 5-45x56 from them and they had a pretty competitive price at the time, based on the 4 main reliable folks that stocked them.
(I still kick myself however that I wasn't able to grab the one @gr8fuldoug was selling cheaper on special several months earlier when I was broke).
So I'm guessing their plan may be to basically give one party a sales monopoly in exchange for forcing higher prices and not giving any discounts and seeing if they can squeeze the civilian market for anything they can to make up for less military sales?
I really like S&B scopes, but a big part of my like for them was value for the money and once upon a time they were head and shoulders quality above the rest & at a decent cost. Now they are more in the middle of an expanding pack of similar quality brands, so I'm not sure how their huge price hike ideas will go for them.
I guess this would be a better question for the guys over at EuroOptics on the board here, to see what their plans are and what they have agreed to do in order to get the sole vendor position. I wonder if @jb1000br has any insight into what they plan to do price/inventory wise now that they are the only game in town for new S&B scopes? I bought my last S&B scope, the 5-45x56 from them and they had a pretty competitive price at the time, based on the 4 main reliable folks that stocked them.
(I still kick myself however that I wasn't able to grab the one @gr8fuldoug was selling cheaper on special several months earlier when I was broke).
That's an interesting choice. I wonder where it will go for the consumer.
S&B has something new coming out at SHOT, so I'll go play with whatever new stuff they have during range day and chat with them a bit while I am there.
In principle, Europtic has always had good prices on S&B scope. I am pretty sure they have been selling more S&B scopes than anyone else in the US. Probably more than everyone else combined, but it is just a guess.
I suppose it will come down to where the pricing goes from here. For Europtic, it will be interesting in that they are effectively becoming a sole source for both S&B and Hensoldt scopes in the US.
ILya
S&B has something new coming out at SHOT, so I'll go play with whatever new stuff they have during range day and chat with them a bit while I am there.
In principle, Europtic has always had good prices on S&B scope. I am pretty sure they have been selling more S&B scopes than anyone else in the US. Probably more than everyone else combined, but it is just a guess.
I suppose it will come down to where the pricing goes from here. For Europtic, it will be interesting in that they are effectively becoming a sole source for both S&B and Hensoldt scopes in the US.
ILya
Yes, but they have been creeping back up quite a bit compared to that.
Just now I checked their website; Europtic has a 55% off sale on those leica magnus scopes that you like. pretty fantastic deal.
For the prices that S&B commands I agree with above that the value isn't so high. I speak from a deer hunter's perspective, maybe in the tactical realm it's still a clearer choice.
I've looked at their Polar T96 and Stratos scopes. They are great, but not greater than Zeiss or Leica. Their illumination system, in my opinion, leaves something to be desired as well. They are heavy. The Posicon dials on my T96 weren't properly aligned (meaning at mechanical zero the arrow was point at some funky angle).
Maybe this is all fallout from the fact that US markets seem to be going more and more tactical/long range, a point I have raised before. It means the vendors see lagging sales in what used to be their bread and butter. It's harder for the average retailer to move specialized scopes and it's hard in general to communicate a complex value prop. S&B's value prop is becoming complicated in a world of simpler choices.
This is how big companies die. They start to believe that their market relevance is vastly higher than it is due to historical market strength. Failure to really innovate or keep up with competition slowly erodes sales. Senior leadership, still utterly convinced of their continued product supremacy, blames the sales channels. The resulting reorganizing and shifting of sales causes a further rift in the customer base. Revenue declines further. This is followed by layoffs, product consolidations, new leadership that knows even less about the market conditions, and ever declining morale amongst the sales teams.
It's sad to watch.
-Stooxie
I've looked at their Polar T96 and Stratos scopes. They are great, but not greater than Zeiss or Leica. Their illumination system, in my opinion, leaves something to be desired as well. They are heavy. The Posicon dials on my T96 weren't properly aligned (meaning at mechanical zero the arrow was point at some funky angle).
Maybe this is all fallout from the fact that US markets seem to be going more and more tactical/long range, a point I have raised before. It means the vendors see lagging sales in what used to be their bread and butter. It's harder for the average retailer to move specialized scopes and it's hard in general to communicate a complex value prop. S&B's value prop is becoming complicated in a world of simpler choices.
This is how big companies die. They start to believe that their market relevance is vastly higher than it is due to historical market strength. Failure to really innovate or keep up with competition slowly erodes sales. Senior leadership, still utterly convinced of their continued product supremacy, blames the sales channels. The resulting reorganizing and shifting of sales causes a further rift in the customer base. Revenue declines further. This is followed by layoffs, product consolidations, new leadership that knows even less about the market conditions, and ever declining morale amongst the sales teams.
It's sad to watch.
-Stooxie
Even if EuroOptic has a monopoly on S&B in the states, it doesn't mean they can indiscriminately increase the prices. There are way too many good options in the market. Like ATACR. You may see fewer sales, etc, but EuroOptic's prices have always been very competitive, and I would be surprised if they suddenely raised S&B prices significantly.
There was a time when S&B were head and shoulders above the rest, and could practically charge whatever they wanted. That day has passed.
There was a time when S&B were head and shoulders above the rest, and could practically charge whatever they wanted. That day has passed.
I have said it before all S&B has to do is come out with a PM3 with turrets comparable to ATACR, RAZ GEN2, or the holy grail TT at a similar price point. They wouldn’t be able to keep up with demand.....IMO
bingo! Still some of the best glass out there.
The new DTII turrets look pretty awesome... Low profile, locking, user selectable mtc or no mtc, and revolution indicator, all in the same turret. A few users here already have them and seem to really like them.
Probably just to simplify distributor channels for themselves. Most of the gun manufacturers, even U.S. ones, primarily deal with distributors rather than directly with retailers.
They are based in Europe and have no relationship with US Distributors so I do not see anything changing on that front.
Hi,
As much as this is going to cause some "pains" in the optics industry, IMO it makes perfect sense in regards to a few things in relation to International Business, licenses and regulations.
Easy for Euro Optics to submit for export license for xyz products (Whether they need to export them back to S&B or not)..basically they automatically submit for large annual type export permit for everything being imported. That way EO does not have to wait for export license and such just in case they need to send something back.
Also from the insurance side of business....much much safer for S&B to have a dedicated insurance carrier with EO import insurance policy(s).
It also helps reduce the risk of import tax non payment on S&B products because they have a single entity responsible for such.
Really no different than other industries having "exclusive" distributors for the USA market instead of dealers being able to purchase direct from mfg...
How many firearms dealers here on SH can buy a rifle direct from AINA?
Sincerely,
Theis
As much as this is going to cause some "pains" in the optics industry, IMO it makes perfect sense in regards to a few things in relation to International Business, licenses and regulations.
Easy for Euro Optics to submit for export license for xyz products (Whether they need to export them back to S&B or not)..basically they automatically submit for large annual type export permit for everything being imported. That way EO does not have to wait for export license and such just in case they need to send something back.
Also from the insurance side of business....much much safer for S&B to have a dedicated insurance carrier with EO import insurance policy(s).
It also helps reduce the risk of import tax non payment on S&B products because they have a single entity responsible for such.
Really no different than other industries having "exclusive" distributors for the USA market instead of dealers being able to purchase direct from mfg...
How many firearms dealers here on SH can buy a rifle direct from AINA?
Sincerely,
Theis
Wow, this was very unexpected! So Doug, does this mean that if you want to sell Schmidt & Bender scopes, you now have to purchase them through eurooptic.com, and assuming that to be the case, are you still offered the same dealer pricing or has that now changed as well?
I am a bit surprised they have done this, but more importantly, "why" did S&B feel they needed to do this? I agree with some of the above posts with regard to the market being flooded with better and better options, some even better than what Schmidt & Bender produces. I highly doubt we'll see a demise of S&B but certainly market pressure is causing them to rethink the USA market. We're seeing other manufacturers beginning to do similar and I'm sure Schmidt won't be the last. Minox has kind of alienated their retailers by offering the 50% off special through Blaser/Mauser/Minox USA instead of through retailers (which they should have done). I find that a lot of foreign companies just don't understand the USA market and how things are done here. Those companies who learn to adapt can do very well, but those who are stubborn and used to doing things a certain way in their own countries may struggle. Especially now that the market has many options and options that come from the USA or at least serviced in the USA.
Sporting events like PRS and NRL have changed the landscape of sport optics in the USA, as these events become more and more popular and shooters become more and more educated as to which types of scopes can help them, we are beginning to see a shift in priorities as shooters are beginning to realize the value of higher end optics and changing budgets (or using credit cards) to purchase these scopes. One area that has been slow for manufacturers to invest in is with reticle design, Schmidt & Bender is a great example of a company who arguably offers the most options for reticles; however, the vast majority of their reticles have very little appeal to this new market of shooters. Meanwhile we've seen companies who were relatively unknown rise up in the ranks because they were smart enough to invest in good reticles (Kahles is the first that comes to mind). For the longest time it seemed like Nightforce was just dragging their feet, the ATACR F1 series is relatively new and it wasn't until 2018 that they finally came out with a compelling .2 mil hash tree reticle. What Schmidt really needs is something similar, of course an update to the now dated PM II 5-25 with tunneled FOV would be nice as well, but a good .2 mil hash Christmas tree reticle similar to the SKMR3, MR4, MPCT2, Gen III XR et al is something that should have been first priority for them several years ago.
ILya mentions a new scope coming from Schmidt at SHOT 2020, that will be very interesting to see if it's one that meets the market needs or is priced out of the stratosphere or... I guess we'll have to wait and see.
To us this means we will not handle S&B as we do not purchase product from other retailers and count on other retailers to want to help us make sales (with rare exception. There are guys like Scott at Liberty Optics who we would always help out and who has helped us out in the past). According to the way it was explained to me I would be buying directly though EO. I can still speak with my rep at S&B to place orders for me and my cost would still be a dealer price but all transactions would be handled through EO.
Last time something similar went down, when Zeiss turned USA distribution of Hensoldt over to EO, everything I ordered was on perpetual back order. I will not go through that again.
I have always had an amazing relationship with S&B and will miss working with them. I would say that if you're hard set on buying a S&B product then EO is the only option. I know that my Nightforce, Kahles, Tangent and Steiner reps are thrilled with S&B's decision to do this.
If anything changes I'll let you know.
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That really stinks Doug, for you and the others affected by this. I have no issue with EO as they have always served me well, but I'll be curious to see how this affects Schmidt in the long run. I think the most telling point you make is "I know that my Nightforce, Kahles, Tangent and Steiner reps are thrilled with S&B's decision to do this." It sounds like it will open a door of opportunity for some of the other players.
I think a point that some are missing is EO is not only a distributor, but they are also a dealer. If they were a distributor only selling to other dealers I could see it being fair.
Recent experience.
Camera Land (Doug) was about $500 cheaper than EO on a S&B Dual CC in Pantone.
Took a long time for S&B to make a run of that particular scope but that’s not Camera Lands fault.
Doug came through and his brother, Joel finally got me a new Leica M-E I had pre ordered with a small discount.
In short Camera Land took $500 deposits, came through.
Camera Land has my business.
-Richard
Camera Land (Doug) was about $500 cheaper than EO on a S&B Dual CC in Pantone.
Took a long time for S&B to make a run of that particular scope but that’s not Camera Lands fault.
Doug came through and his brother, Joel finally got me a new Leica M-E I had pre ordered with a small discount.
In short Camera Land took $500 deposits, came through.
Camera Land has my business.
-Richard
And EO also now charged tax for hawaii
Pretty much everyone will be charging tax in very state soon.
The only states that don’t require tax are ones that haven’t passed legislation, and it’s only a matter of time. After the SCOTUS ruling, it would be crazy for a state not to collect on internet sales.
Tax free online shopping is all but a thing of the past now.
Yeah just got a Leica Magnus through them and was surprised on check out.And EO also now charged tax for hawaii
This has been happening in a lot of industries. John Deere has been forcing buyouts on many of their chains to consolidate under single owners. It allows them to price set and eliminate competition between dealers.
This is never good for the buyer.
This is never good for the buyer.
And EO also now charged tax for hawaii
You can thank the government for that. EO nor any other shops have a say so.
Hi,
But yet MHSA sells AI at both distributor and dealer level and it clearly seems to be working out for AINA and MHSA.
It has already been mentioned that "dealers" could still place their orders through their S&B rep so there really would be no way for EO to raise the prices to the dealers. It appears that just all shipment and service would be going through EO but pricing structure and ordering structure remains as it is currently.
Sincerely,
Theis
I think there is more to it than that. For AI and MHSA it is working out, but what about all the other dealers who would like to sell AI, they would have to purchase from MHSA and then be in competition with them, "how is that working out" would be the question.
Maybe it's a wash in the end, but making a dealer purchase from their competition is not a model a lot of businesses appreciate, at least here in the States. Look at Doug's point above about when Hensoldt went to sole distributorship through EO, Cameralandny still wanted to sell them but found that stock was on perpetual backorder, but available from EO I am assuming, so what will the customer do? They will choose to buy from who has it in stock.
So you’re saying EO is going to sell them to other dealers for the same price S&B is going to invoice EO. EO is going to process the orders and act as a free shipping hub for S&B. Hmm that’s interesting. I just don’t think you can be a distributor and a dealer and not have an advantage over a dealer only.
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