Rifle Scopes School me...

[Wins10runsacp]

So I’ve made a commitment to get a scope. My problem is I don’t have money to burn; by that just throw it at a brand and realize it’s crap. I see a lot of things being thrown outside of just glass, like “track”. How do I find a good “tracking” scope by definition? what is zero stop? How does that benefit me?
I mean for now I’m looking for FFP, MRAD type scope. Illuminated reticle, else?

budgetwise... approx $600-$1200

Even links would help...

 

[TrevK]

The Vortex viper pst gen 2 sounds right up your alley

 

[moaorbust]

Agreed. PST2 is what I would pick in that range.

 

[aljones_315]

ask your self do you need illumination? are you set on new or will used suffice the pst gen2 does have pretty clear glass but im not sure it weighs better than a gen2 razor which i have seen on here for 1350 used still under a lifetime no bs warranty if you dont need illumination look at a leupold mk5

i would also study perticular reticles amongst the top few choices and see which one would suit you best i have run the ebr2c mrad for a few years but am now transitioning to a tremor3 you may prefer something else and most of these scopes new or used carry a full no bs warranty against anything save for minor cosmetic junk

 

[rtB]

How are you going to use it, what rifle is it going on? Lots of questions...

 

[nn8734]

So I’ve made a commitment to get a scope. My problem is I don’t have money to burn; by that just throw it at a brand and realize it’s crap. I see a lot of things being thrown outside of just glass, like “track”. How do I find a good “tracking” scope by definition? what is zero stop? How does that benefit me?
I mean for now I’m looking for FFP, MRAD type scope. Illuminated reticle, else?

budgetwise... approx $600-$1200

Even links would help...

There is literally tons of information on the “track” record of various scopes in that price range; most are well made and track just fine. Most have zero stops these days...I’d be researching reticles from offerings from Nightforce, Leupold, Vortex to start.

Depending upon how often you use the rifle (and how much fun you have with it) you will likely find yourself upgrading. With that in mind, SWFA also makes decent glass for the price may let you explore your rifles capabilities without braking the bank (at least initially). You can decide to transition from something like that to an ATACR, Schmidt Bender or Razor once you are confident the usage will justify the investment.

My two cents based on lessons learned when initially getting into long range target shooting.

 

[SanPatHogger]

I would say DO RESEARCH

What kind of shooting are you going to be doing? What distance?
Do you know anybody who shoots and has a FFP scope?

I say this because I bought my first "nice" scope a few years ago without knowing much. I knew I wanted mil dots and a big objective and lots of zoom. I ended up with a 5-30x56 SPF. Its very nice but after shooting out to 400 I realized I out grew it kind of quick.

FFP is the way to go. A buddy of mine lent me a FFP and I fired my first round at about 30 yards, ended up very low and a hair left. I stood there for a minute trying to figure in my head.... How far am I? How many clicks for 5 inches at 30 yards? How do I convert 30 yards and 5 inches to 0.1 mil clicks...
Then it clicked in my head "You have a ruler in your face that matches the turrets"
I lined up my cross hairs on the bull, looked at the reticle, dialed what it said and put my second shot in the bullseye. Friggin sweet.

Before you go spending a bunch of money ask what your goal is. How much scope do you need?

My buddy and I both just bought new scopes. I got an Athlon Argos 6-24 CHEAP. My buddy bought a Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25. Both have similar reticle. Both are MIL reticle and MIL turrets. Both have zero stops, the Athlon is plastic washers you stack in, the Vortex has a disk thingy you put in. Vortex turrets lock, you wont accidentally spin them. The Athlon turrets click much crisper and the lines on the knob and the body line up. The Vortex has mushy turrets and the lines don't match up. I may have gotten the only good Athlon Argos out there and my buddy might have gotten a crappy Strike Eagle.

Anyway, go look at some first. Maybe shoot one.

 

[SanPatHogger]

And the Athlon has a warranty. Its $250 on Amazon right now. You would have $950 of your budget left for ammo to go shoot it till it breaks. Then get it fixed or traded for a new one, then sell the replacement to me for $100 and be back up to a budget of $1,050

 

[arrow179]

My recommendation- Spend as much as you can and get the best optic you can afford. I’ve bought a lot of cheap scopes in the past before I knew what “good” glass and tracking was all about and they were pretty much junk.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

NF SHV 4-14x50 F1 would fit the requirements and budget.

 

[Rebels010]

Call Doug at Cameraland and ask for the SH deal on the Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18. I have one and a couple 3-12’s. One of the better scopes in your price.

 

[patriot07]

What are you going to do with it?

For beginners, it's just hard to go wrong with a used SWFA 5-20 HD. They work well, they're easy to use, they have good glass, and they're affordable. Not the most modern optic, but that kinda stuff doesn't really matter when you're just learning. What matters is that it works perfectly, all the time, and that it's easy to use.

 

[Jsmith2631]

SWFA is a good scope in your price range. Not long ago I was in your shoes and ended up with an SWFA 5-20. Then I got another one. I have purchased some “upgraded” scopes in the last couple of years but I am still rocking both SWFA’s on 2 rifles with no complaints. The reliability is always there. Reticle is plain but it gets the job done.

 

[Wins10runsacp]

ask your self do you need illumination? are you set on new or will used suffice the pst gen2 does have pretty clear glass but im not sure it weighs better than a gen2 razor which i have seen on here for 1350 used still under a lifetime no bs warranty if you dont need illumination look at a leupold mk5

I want illumination; may never use it - but if I need it... you know the adage. I don’t mind buying used as long as the company has a lifetime warranty. At least I can sleep at night. I’ve been thinking a used RAZOR is my best bet if I just sit and wait it out.

How are you going to use it, what rifle is it going on? Lots of questions...

What kind of shooting are you going to be doing? What distance?

I would be punching paper first. Ultimately go for coyote - I have a buddy who has some land and has Coyote problems from time to time and asked if I’d like to help out... it’s going on a Knights LPR - 5.56
Never thought distance - maybe 600 max. I do have a 1000yd range. But I have no business going there.

What are you going to do with it?

For beginners, it's just hard to go wrong with a used SWFA 5-20 HD.

I’ve been looking for used SWFA even a fixed SWFA to start and understand the basics... they sell quick used, and I never see variable HD on the used market. When I try and justify new... then I go to... looking at other options.

I’m looking at used Razor, Bushnell DMRHD, NF SHV - I guess that’s where I’ve kind of settled after throwing around suggestions... knowing myself I’ll end up with used SWFA since that’s what seems logical with money to burn on ammo/range fees to practice

 

[Austinjunks]

Call @gr8fuldoug, he will talk you through everything and help you pick whats right for you.

I would recommend looking at vortex pst2 or razor, athlon ares, steiner p4xi and (my personal fav) bushnell elite tac. Good luck.

 

[WB300]

Steiner P4xi 4-16x56. $850 at Cameraland. This scope continues to impress me at this price.

 

[b6graham]

save up $400 more and get a new razor gen 2 from liberty

 

[patriot07]

I’ve been looking for used SWFA even a fixed SWFA to start and understand the basics... they sell quick used, and I never see variable HD on the used market. When I try and justify new... then I go to... looking at other options.

I’m looking at used Razor, Bushnell DMRHD, NF SHV - I guess that’s where I’ve kind of settled after throwing around suggestions... knowing myself I’ll end up with used SWFA since that’s what seems logical with money to burn on ammo/range fees to practice

Nothing wrong with a Razor or SHV (I'm not a big Bushnell fan). But I shot my SWFA HD out to 1,100 yards with zero issues. There just isn't that much that a Razor offers to an entry-level shooter that an SWFA HD doesn't. It'll be a long time before the scope holds you back.

 

[Andrew863]

I have to say i'm in the same boat as you. I make good money but with so many hobbies with USPSA,3 gun, long range, reloading and building trucks I can't always toss 2500 at a scope. I did a lot of research and bought the Vortex viper PST gen 2 5-25. I picked it up a year ago and love it. The glass is easily clear enough to do 12 to 1500 yrd shots and for me the tracking has been on point. The only thing I wish it had was a 34mm tube. I don't care about illumination so now i'm looking to pick up a Arken optics 6-24. I haven't layed my hands on one but the retical seems to be just what I need, it don't have illumination so for me that is a plus, everyone say the turrets and the tracking are great and it has a 34mm tube. So if all this is true it will be a step up form the Viper. It has big shoes to fill so we will see.

 

[b6graham]

I have to say i'm in the same boat as you. I make good money but with so many hobbies with USPSA,3 gun, long range, reloading and building trucks I can't always toss 2500 at a scope. I did a lot of research and bought the Vortex viper PST gen 2 5-25. I picked it up a year ago and love it. The glass is easily clear enough to do 12 to 1500 yrd shots and for me the tracking has been on point. The only thing I wish it had was a 34mm tube. I don't care about illumination so now i'm looking to pick up a Arken optics 6-24. I haven't layed my hands on one but the retical seems to be just what I need, it don't have illumination so for me that is a plus, everyone say the turrets and the tracking are great and it has a 34mm tube. So if all this is true it will be a step up form the Viper. It has big shoes to fill so we will see.

check the new strike eagle 5-25

 

[Wins10runsacp]

save up $400 more and get a new razor gen 2 from liberty

Nothing wrong with a Razor or SHV (I'm not a big Bushnell fan). But I shot my SWFA HD out to 1,100 yards with zero issues. There just isn't that much that a Razor offers to an entry-level shooter that an SWFA HD doesn't. It'll be a long time before the scope holds you back.

That’s my predicament. Settle for SWFA... or save and find a nicely priced used Razor. I threw around NF and Bushnell options. it seems that people prefer the razor over an entry level NF. The Bushnell is a hog and gets too heavy...

 

[Andrew863]

check the new strike eagle 5-25

I have seen them but haven't got my hands on one in person. My local gun shop is supposed to be getting a few in the next week or so. I have been told that the turrets are mushy compared to the Viper gen 2. My Viper has no play at all between clicks and my Diamondback tac has a lot of mush and I hear that its closer to the diamondback tac then it is the viper gen 2 as far as the turrets are concerned. Again that is just hear say at this point.

 

[Andrew863]

That’s my predicament. Settle for SWFA... or save and find a nicely priced used Razor. I threw around NF and Bushnell options. it seems that people prefer the razor over an entry level NF. The Bushnell is a hog and gets too heavy...

I would much prefer the Razor over the NF lower end models. Boils down to with one your getting there top of the line and one your getting there bottom. Just my opinion.

 

[Wins10runsacp]

The Vortex viper pst gen 2 sounds right up your alley

Do you know the difference in the MRAD02C and the MRAD07C
I actually have local deals sub $600. 6-24x or a 3-15x - so I’m wondering if the 6-24 may be too much or the 3-15 may be too little...

 

[supercorndogs]

6-24 would be the mag range for the gen 1 PST.

 

[TrevK]

Do you know the difference in the MRAD02C and the MRAD07C
I actually have local deals sub $600. 6-24x or a 3-15x - so I’m wondering if the 6-24 may be too much or the 3-15 may be too little...

Major difference looks like numbers on the inside of the tree vs outside. The pst gen 2 is 5x25.

 

[RTH1800]

With a good reticule you will never use illumination. Day or night. It fixes a problem that no longer exist and causes a few of it’s own.

From about 1990 and back small reticules often faded from view in poor light but target was still visible. It could be darn frustrating.

At some point someone fixed it with illumination and at same time better reticules were introduced. Either would have fixed the problem alone.

Now the reticules can be seen all night and if you turn on illumination to lowest setting it blows your NV by shutting your pupil and you cannot see target.

Net effect is that you are adding weight, bulk, expense for no gain.

 

[arrow179]

With a good reticule you will never use illumination. Day or night. It fixes a problem that no longer exist and causes a few of it’s own.

From about 1990 and back small reticules often faded from view in poor light but target was still visible. It could be darn frustrating.

At some point someone fixed it with illumination and at same time better reticules were introduced. Either would have fixed the problem alone.

Now the reticules can be seen all night and if you turn on illumination to lowest setting it blows your NV by shutting your pupil and you cannot see target.

Net effect is that you are adding weight, bulk, expense for no gain.

I very seldom use my illumination. Only on the brightest of days when on very low magnification with FFP scope.

 

[Rob01]

Illumination is something people don’t realize it will help them until they try it. Shooting into darker spots on shot up steel, shooting darker targets or even shot up stuff or anytime you need the reticle to pop more to give contrast. I usually use it a few times during a match. I wouldn’t buy a scope in the $1000 and up range that didn’t have it. No reason for them not to.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Just stay away from the Chinese garbage people on here are suggesting. lots of good options at the top of your price range.

 

[long range sponge]

I've not looked used a ton of scopes but here'smy advice. @gr8fuldoug has some great deals on Bushnell LRTSi. One of the best values in my limited knowledge opinion. I regret selling both of my LRHSi. EuroOptic has good deals on Gen2 PSTs. Next step up for me would be a Gen2 Razor. I'd contact Scott @LibertyOptics for a Razor.

 

[Steel head]

save up $400 more and get a new razor gen 2 from liberty

OP
At your current budget a used Cronus is a lot of bang for the buck but the above advice is solid.

 

[JINKSTER]

Just stay away from the Chinese garbage people on here are suggesting. lots of good options at the top of your price range.

^^THIS^^...I own and actually really like (2) Vortex products but?...I'm ashamed to admit I do...that said?...

I recently did much research in an effort to select a better scope than my 3-9X50 Baush & Lomb 3000 sitting on top of my completely re-done M77 30.06 where the top contenders were the ridiculously Lotta scope for the buck Weaver (which is Jap glass)...

Weaver Tactical Rifle Scope - 3-15X50mm 30mm SF Illum FFP EMDR Reticle 33.9-6.8' FOV 3.98" ER Black Matte

Weaver is proud to offer rugged riflescopes designed specifically for tactical applications. As part of the Super Slam™ series, these tactical scopes are manufactured to the strictest tolerances in order to perform in the harshest environments. Powerful 5x magnification Fully multi-coated...

www.natchezss.com

or something in the Zeiss Conquest or Nightforce SHV series (which are both towards & at the highpoint of your price range) but in MRAD?...dunno what to tell ya...sorry.

 

[R_Swanson]

I love how in these threads people always quote used Razor G2 4.5-27s at 1300-1350.

Yes, one comes up a month for that price, and sells in about 15 mins. Literally. So if you don't have time to scour the forum every waking second of your life to save 200 bucks, really you're looking at 1500-1550 used for that scope.

Besides... What's the value of your time vs getting a rock bottom price on a used Razor G2? There's a shit ton of nice scopes available these days.

 

[b6graham]

I love how in these threads people always quote used Razor G2 4.5-27s at 1300-1350.

Yes, one comes up a month for that price, and sells in about 15 mins. Literally. So if you don't have time to scour the forum every waking second of your life to save 200 bucks, really you're looking at 1500-1550 used for that scope.

Besides... What's the value of your time vs getting a rock bottom price on a used Razor G2? There's a shit ton of nice scopes available these days.

brand new. every day $1600. ebr-7c.

 

[R_Swanson]

brand new. every day $1600. ebr-7c.

Thought the low end was 1700 right now. Where are you paying 1600?

Regardless, I agree. The compression on prices on the G2 razors between new and used makes new the logical choice for me right now as well.

 

[spife7980]

Thought the low end was 1700 right now. Where are you paying 1600?

Regardless, I agree. The compression on prices on the G2 razors between new and used makes new the logical choice for me right now as well.

The same forum vendor who gets mentioned every time razor comes up and has already been mentioned in this thread in post 31, that’s 3 posts before yours.

Liberty Optics

 

[R_Swanson]

The same forum vendor who gets mentioned every time and has already been mentioned in this thread in post 31, that’s 3 posts before yours.

Yeah... Someone posted it was 1700 there a few days ago. Guess I can't keep track or read bad info, lol.

 

[db2000]

I have 2 Nikon Black FX1000 6-24 x 50 mrad. They illuminate but I never use that option. Eurooptic bought out Nikon when they got out of the scope business. They are on clearance currently. I compare to my Leupold VX3 and the glass is extremely comparable at full magnification. 10x power is fine for 1000 yrds. 24x is nice though for 100-300 yrds and seeing a paper target your shooting w/o referencing a spotting scope. This is a good reticle and not too busy. Made in Phillipines.

Nikon BLACK FX1000 Riflescope 6-24x50SF Matte IL FX-MRAD FFP 16516

Nikon BLACK FX1000 Riflescope 6-24x50SF Matte IL FX-MRAD FFP 16516

www.eurooptic.com

Nikon BLACK FX1000 Riflescope 4-16x50SF Matte IL FX-MRAD FFP 16514

Nikon BLACK FX1000 Riflescope 4-16x50SF Matte IL FX-MRAD FFP 16514

www.eurooptic.com

 

[b6graham]

The same forum vendor who gets mentioned every time razor comes up and has already been mentioned in this thread in post 31, that’s 3 posts before yours.

Liberty Optics

and in post $17 where i mentioned price and vendor the first time haha

 

[R_Swanson]

and in post $17 where i mentioned price and vendor the first time haha

You said save up to 400... As I said, I thought it was 1700 from them. My bad for being off 100 bones.

Either way... It's a sweet price!

 

[Wins10runsacp]

Besides... What's the value of your time vs getting a rock bottom price on a used Razor G2? There's a shit ton of nice scopes available these days.

That's the problem shit ton of nice scopes.
All tier levels from competitors are 1-200 differences. If I get A, well B looks good, well C is in reach.... doh!

 

[CrabsandFootball]

The same forum vendor who gets mentioned every time razor comes up and has already been mentioned in this thread in post 31, that’s 3 posts before yours.

Liberty Optics

Dude I swear like clockwork someone comes in every thread a razor for $1600 where, I don't believe it. Not like it's mentioned in every fucking thread here

 

[wade2big]

@Wins10runsacp

I’ve been looking for used SWFA even a fixed SWFA to start and understand the basics... they sell quick used, and I never see variable HD on the used market. When I try and justify new... then I go to... looking at other options.

I’m looking at used Razor, Bushnell DMRHD, NF SHV - I guess that’s where I’ve kind of settled after throwing around suggestions... knowing myself I’ll end up with used SWFA since that’s what seems logical with money to burn on ammo/range fees to practice

I have a couple Razor gen II and a couple SWFA 5-20. I can hit anything using the SWFA as I can with the Razor.

The Razor has a better field of view and a higher mag range for spotting. Some shoot that high I guess. The SWFA is right there with it and is actually much better in the lower mag ranges than the razor. The swfa is extremely usable in the midrange of the scope. The Razor is not. Anything below 15x and it gets less user friendly due to the thin reticle. Below 10x is a joke. Yes hits can be made there but with greater effort. Of course the scope is geared for high mag usability and is better there than the SWFA. Always trade offs. The SWFA shines at the 10-12x range and does really well up to about 18x.
I would have a hard time deciding which I like best. For a purely target scope the Razor takes it. For a combination scope the SWFA takes it. Don’t pay more than $1450 for a used razor gen ii and don’t pay more than $850 for an illuminated 5-20 swfa.

A zero stop is not necessary with any 10mil per revolution turret. Most have them though. They do give a piece of mind but I have never bumped my zero stop in any scope I own either accidentally or intentionally. Even my 5 mil turret scopes with no zero stop have lines under the turret. Note which rev your scope is zeroed on and you will never be lost. I never understood the must have of the zero stop. That being said any modern scope should have them I guess.

 

[Enough Said]

Based upon the tracking LL and I have done, the NightForce SHV’s track very well and have served students newer to the sport very well.
They also hold their value for when you are looking to upgrade.

Get and F1, MIl SHV and put this thought to rest.

 

[FLIGHT762]

SHV 4 -14X50 F1 IlluM. MiL R - DEMO $1064.00 https://www.eurooptic.com/Nightforce-SHV-4-14x50-F1-.1-MIL-illuminated-Mil-R-C557-Showroom-Demo.aspx

You better be fast.

 

[Rob01]

^^THIS^^...I own and actually really like (2) Vortex products but?...I'm ashamed to admit I do...that said?...

Just to educate you, not all Vortex products are made in China. Only the lower lines mostly.

 

[Rob01]

@Wins10runsacp


I have a couple Razor gen II and a couple SWFA 5-20. I can hit anything using the SWFA as I can with the Razor.

The Razor has a better field of view and a higher mag range for spotting. Some shoot that high I guess. The SWFA is right there with it and is actually much better in the lower mag ranges than the razor. The swfa is extremely usable in the midrange of the scope. The Razor is not. Anything below 15x and it gets less user friendly due to the thin reticle. Below 10x is a joke. Yes hits can be made there but with greater effort. Of course the scope is geared for high mag usability and is better there than the SWFA. Always trade offs. The SWFA shines at the 10-12x range and does really well up to about 18x.
I would have a hard time deciding which I like best. For a purely target scope the Razor takes it. For a combination scope the SWFA takes it. Don’t pay more than $1450 for a used razor gen ii and don’t pay more than $850 for an illuminated 5-20 swfa.

A zero stop is not necessary with any 10mil per revolution turret. Most have them though. They do give a piece of mind but I have never bumped my zero stop in any scope I own either accidentally or intentionally. Even my 5 mil turret scopes with no zero stop have lines under the turret. Note which rev your scope is zeroed on and you will never be lost. I never understood the must have of the zero stop. That being said any modern scope should have them I guess.

And you can hit anything with a Razor that you could with a TT or ZCO or S&B. LOL

You are the only person I have read that can’t use the Razor in mid power. Most march shooters use it in mid power and have no issues hitting targets or using the reticle for holds. I do it all the time and can see and use the reticle down to 8x. Below that it gets tougher.

Zero stops are helpful for knowing where you are even on 10 mil per rev scopes. Have seen many people be a rev off. Having it is better than not I agree

 

[wade2big]

SHV 4 -14X50 F1 IlluM. MiL R - DEMO $1064.00 https://www.eurooptic.com/Nightforce-SHV-4-14x50-F1-.1-MIL-illuminated-Mil-R-C557-Showroom-Demo.aspx

You better be fast.

Call optics planet. Paid $1100 brand new about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago for that exact scope. That was before the sales tax bullshit though.

 

[wade2big]

And you can hit anything with a Razor that you could with a TT or ZCO or S&B. LOL

You are the only person I have read that can’t use the Razor in mid power. Most march shooters use it in mid power and have no issues hitting targets or using the reticle for holds. I do it all the time and can see and use the reticle down to 8x. Below that it gets tougher.

Zero stops are helpful for knowing where you are even on 10 mil per rev scopes. Have seen many people be a rev off. Having it is better than not I agree

I can use it at 10x. It just sucks. I made that clear in my post. Compared to a .5 mil thick reticle at the same mag ranges the vortex blows. Take away good lighting and its worse yet. My opinion is its not good there. You can disagree as its opinion. A larger reticle is easier to see and use than a thinner one. That is factual and cant be argued. Where that crossover is can be argued.

The Razor is a great scope. One of my two favorites. It is not THE GREATEST scope in the world for every mag range and/or application like you want it to be. Sorry. Im not paid by them.