Rifle Scopes Scope Cant Rant, Hey I can rhyme, Dr. Dre better sign me before he fines me...

[ND Precision Rifle]

Okay, Let me set the mood...

It was a cold and dark afternoon. The weather has the ability to wear down a mans soul. A customer came into the shop with a brand new $2500 scope. His heart was filled with joy and excitement. This was the day he has been waiting for. Putting his new scope on his brand new LWRC Valkyrie.

As I gathered my tools to perform this delicate operation, badger dead level check. Scope, Check, More levels, Check, Levels for the more levels check. Plum bobby thingy ma do. CHECK!

As soon as the operation began it was over.....Leveled the badger, leveled the scope, and a quick peek through the glass at the plum....

The reticle was canted. Not just a degree or two, but noticeably CANTED. Checked, and Rechecked and oh noes. Quality Control skipped this little baby.


It was bad enough that I could't go further. I needed to go back to the scope factory where magic and witchcraft happens.


The customer was upset, The company said that they've NEVER had a canted reticle, well I have three RMA's to prove otherwise, same model, same company.

The scope was boxed up, and sent off. About 8 days later, it was back in our shop. Same process, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand CANTED, not as severe as before. I checked the serial number, it was a different scope, with a different serial than before. hmmmmmmm


So I spoke with the customer, he asked me to level the scope, to the rifle, and to level his level to the reticle. I'm not a huge fan of scope levels, but I did what he asked.


Question:

1. How are you guys leveling your scopes, plumb and a dead level? Or just using a level, I felt I had pretty good redundancy to get everything as perfect as I can. I've been doing this a while so I have a pretty good method, I think.

2. I've seen people use playing cards and leveling off the bottom of the scope, not a bad Idea, but i've never attempted it. Does it work? We have a wedge thing that we got and I've used that a bit and it works great. I can't remember where we got it, spuhr maybe?

3. What are you guys doing when you get a canted reticle, advising customer and sending it back? Asking them what they want leveled? or just mounting it and sending them on there way?

I understand the QC control and what they allow to leave the shop but WOWZA this scope should have never left the shop. Curious how some of these high end companies install the glass to get it straight.


Oh yeah. Leupold Mark 5 HD 5-25 TREMOR 3 Reticle.

And that's why I shoot NF.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

I use feeler gauges to level between rail and bottom of erector housing. After verifying that things are as close to mechanically lined up as my eyeball can calibrate I do try a scope tracking test.

 

[Huskydriver]

Lol aaaaannnnd que the gold ring fan boys....

 

[spife7980]

I use a plumb bob so that the retice is level, I don’t care about the body. BUT you also need to make sure it’s path of travel is inline with the reticle. That’s what really matters.

 

[ND Precision Rifle]

I use a plumb bob so that the retice is level, I don’t care about the body. BUT you also need to make sure it’s path of travel is inline with the reticle. That’s what really matters.

Yeah, this is what I do. I've had some that were maybe a degree or so off, not that big of a deal, I usually will level so that the turret is straight, and the reticle travels "north and south" and not NE to SW so to speak.

I use to be a huge Leupold fanboy, that ended when the Mark 4's went away. I can honestly say, I've never had a problem with the Mark 4's. Maybe I got lucky, the 6's were terrible IMHO.

I look at the QC this way, Leupold is huge into the hunters and have a bazillion scopes, with countless options.

Quantity over Quality here.

where look at NF, they have a few scopes, but nothing compared to Leupold.

So far we've seen 5 Mark 5's with the Tremor Reticle, and 3 of them were sent back...due to extreme reticle cant issues....I wish i took a picture to show how bad it was..

 

[hk dave]

I level my reticle with a plumb bob and scope or rifle mounted level, then shoot a tracking test to confirm.

 

[flyer]

I use a plumb bob so that the retice is level, I don’t care about the body. BUT you also need to make sure it’s path of travel is inline with the reticle. That’s what really matters.

It would be one hell of a QC issue if the turrets don't move the reticle square to the scope housing. Add reticle cant and the tracking will never really be right if you ever use anything beside the crosshair. If you cant the scope to level the reticle, every time you dial it's going to be at an angle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It always amazes me how companies have “never had that problem.”

But they forget you already sent them something back before with a problem.

I level with wedge, cards, feeler gauges, whatever. Then I check with plumb line and adjust if need be.

Then perform tracking test.

If the reticle is only slightly canted in the optic and will track true when leveled, I don’t worry about it.

If it’s canted enough the optic looks all galiwompus on the rifle, or it doesn’t track, it goes back to factory.

 

[ND Precision Rifle]

It always amazes me how companies have “never had that problem.”

But they forget you already sent them something back before with a problem.

I level with wedge, cards, feeler gauges, whatever. Then I check with plumb line and adjust if need be.

Then perform tracking test.

If the reticle is only slightly canted in the optic and will track true when leveled, I don’t worry about it.

If it’s canted enough the optic looks all galiwompus on the rifle, or it doesn’t track, it goes back to factory.

Its frustrating being someone who offers a service to make all their expensive shit work. I called Leupold and our Rep and chewed some ass. I get a scope here and a scope there, but the same shop 3 scopes? WITH PAPERWORK IN HAD THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM????? WTF M8.

We used a welding dial to show the degrees of cant to leupold compared to our bob/compared to where the scope body says level is. The latest one was 6 degrees off. Now that doesn't sound like much, until you put it on a calibrated tool and you say, wow.

I hope a rep sees this and gets their shit together. It would be interesting how many other shops have this issue, We can't be the only one. Unless they send all their shit scopes to North Dakota?

 

[Badfinger]

I use Spuhr mounts and their wedge to level.

 

[Huskydriver]

It always amazes me how companies have “never had that problem.”

But they forget you already sent them something back before with a problem.

I level with wedge, cards, feeler gauges, whatever. Then I check with plumb line and adjust if need be.

Then perform tracking test.

If the reticle is only slightly canted in the optic and will track true when leveled, I don’t worry about it.

If it’s canted enough the optic looks all galiwompus on the rifle, or it doesn’t track, it goes back to factory.

+10 points for using galiwompus correctly in a sentence

 

[plong]

Started reading... "canted reticle..." "company said they've NEVER had..." but "three RMAs... same model..." and I'm thinking 'well, doesn't look like he's gonna tell us, but I'd bet bottom-dollar its a Leupold...' and then, there it is.

 

[Rekkr870]

Well, the way I do it is by a plumb line and a rail mounted level. A scope mount level like the Spuhr will work too. I level my gun, then I level my scope with the plumb line. When my gun is level, my reticle is true to gravity.

This is all depending on your reticle not being shit. It must be level.

Leveling off the bottom of the scope is a great way too. The Arisaka tool and the Spuhr mounts are really nice. Unfortunately, some mounts dont have enough room to successfully use the arisaka tool. There just isn't enough clearance.

Another thing, say your reticle is level to gravity but it's still physically canted. You can use your reticle to shoot distance and be successful, however, when you start dialing is when the shitshow begins. You'll be dialing at an angle.

 

[168Grainer]

I level the reticle to the fall of gravity. I do not trust bubbles or scope leveling tools that I have access to in the gun shop I work for. I take time and look through the scope, check, adjust, check, adjust, and triple check everything. I also check with the customer to insure they feel that it is correct (eye relief, level, etc.). Bottom line is that if my customer is happy, I am happy.

On my personal scopes I set a plumb line. Then I will track the adjustments at known distances.

 

[MCHOG]

I (1) use Wheeler Engineering's leveling system to get the scope body level with the rifle, (2) then check the reticle with a plumb bob, and then (3) use a home made poster to do a turret tracking test. Maybe I've gotten lucky, because I've been beginning to wonder if the plumb test was just me being overly-cautious.

 

[168Grainer]

Maybe I've gotten lucky, because I've been beginning to wonder if the plumb test was just me being overly-cautious.
[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that double checking your work is overly-cautious.

 

[Sheldon N]

1. How are you guys leveling your scopes, plumb and a dead level? Or just using a level, I felt I had pretty good redundancy to get everything as perfect as I can. I've been doing this a while so I have a pretty good method, I think.

Step 1: Hang a plumb bob, level the reticle to plumb bob, attach bubble level to scope.

Step 2: Check for a canted reticle by running the turret up and down when indexed against plumb line. (scope held in fixture, rifle in sturdy tripod, whatever to hold it stationary. Alternate option is to shoot a tall target test). If the tracking of the reticle follows the plumb line you do NOT have a canted reticle.

IMO it doesn't matter what the outside of the turrets line up at. Only thing that matters is that 1 and 2 above match. If they do, then....

Step 3: Mount scope on rifle in a position that matches shooter NPA.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I’ve spent lots a time dicking around leveling scopes and finally broke down for a Shpur mount. I’m never going to mount with rings again. One piece mount with a bubble in the mount and a mechanical leveling device is so easy and reliable.

 

[Sheldon N]

I’m never going to mount with rings again. One piece mount with a bubble in the mount and a mechanical leveling device is so easy and reliable.

Unless your scope housing doesn't match up with your reticle... then the Spur and all the wedges and tools do you no good.

And if you want to match your scope alignment to your shooter NPA that also does you no good.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

Unless your scope housing doesn't match up with your reticle..

In this instance, my OCD would kick in and I’d be a hot mess until that was un-fucked.

 

[patriot07]

I recently sent in a scope for being off 1.5 degrees. It was .3 mils off over about 14 mils of travel. All in all, I shoot 1/2 MOA targets out to 800 yards in matches and that's enough to take me totally off the 1/2 MOA and 3/4 MOA target at that range. IMHO, for anything over $1000+, the reticle should be well under a degree. There is no "perfect", but I'd say within .1 mils over 15 mils of travel is close enough for me to not worry about it. With .3 mils over that same range, it was barely noticeable visibly. When I leveled the reticle, the turret was just a hair off. When I leveled the turret, the reticle was just a hair off. I'm more OCD than most, but it would have bothered me forever even though I'm willing to bet most shooters would never have even noticed, much less cared. The replacement scope I got is dead-on perfect over 15 mils of travel. Zero perceivable error - goes right down the vertical stadia.

All that being said, if a $300 Athlon was off 1.5 degrees, I probably would have leveled the reticle to my FOV and called it a day. Quality expectations change with price.

 

[ND Precision Rifle]

I've seen some bad stuff, most of it came from Trijicon with the ACOGs being canted badly. We did a "tracking" test, in our store and it failed. I think im more annoyed that its happened 3 times and Leupold still denies anything is wrong.

 

[ND Precision Rifle]

UPDATE:

So They fixed it. They said that nothing was wrong, and that it met their "standards" here is the thing.

If a customer is paying 2k for a optic, You would think that they get 2k worth of optic, and QC.

Got another Mark 5 in, TREMOR 3, and guess what.....

Now the turret is messed up. The rev counter doesn't work. We are done with Leupold. We've been pushing TT, Kahles, and even Vortex HD line. If a Leupold Rep is on this forum they really need to have a sit down meeting and figure this crap out.

So far thats 4 out of 5 scopes in the Mark 5 HD Tremor 3 that have been broken out of the box.

 

[WB300]

There was a lengthy "discussion" about this over on the 24 hour campfire forum in the optics section. Leupold did a live feed to address customers concerns. They basically thumb their nose at end users. Sealed it FOR ME that i will NEVER own another Leupold. As you can imagine, users were as split as red and blue politics.

Sorry OP, not trying to sidetrack, but educate.

 

[garandman]

Yes a plumb bob.

And whatever else might be Leups faults, none of my dozen Leups ever had canted reticles.

And yes. Im sure someone else has.

 

[Kristian_Jensen]

I just did this for the first time the other day

 

[candyx]

No two plumb bobs are actually vertical so each scope level with them are different.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

If you’re doing it right and find true level, it should feel similar to this.

 

[garandman]

No two plumb bobs are actually vertical so each scope level with them are different.

??? Gravity works different ways in different places?

 

[garandman]

If you’re doing it right and find true level, it should feel similar to this.
View attachment 7123697

You play with yourself on the internet?

 

[garandman]

The dumb is strong in this thread.

 

[supercorndogs]

No two plumb bobs are actually vertical so each scope level with them are different.

What?

 

[candyx]

??? Gravity works different ways in different places?

Because earth is a sphere when you hang 2 plumb bobs and you measure the distance between the two they are not parallel. Measurement at the bottom is less then it is at the top between the two which means they are angled and not 90 degrees to each other.

 

[RTH1800]

Cannot imaging paying 2500 for a Leupold.
Lot of quality scopes in that range.

 

[supercorndogs]

Because earth is a sphere when you hang 2 plumb bobs and you measure the distance between the two they are not parallel. Measurement at the bottom is less then it is at the top between the two which means they are angled and not 90 degrees to each other.

I bet if you hang two plumb bobs twenty feet apart you can't measure the distance they differ with micrometer.

 

[RTH1800]

Because earth is a sphere when you hang 2 plumb bobs and you measure the distance between the two they are not parallel. Measurement at the bottom is less then it is at the top between the two which means they are angled and not 90 degrees to each other.

You must be hanging them too far apart.

 

[supercorndogs]

How much earth curvature is one foot? Here you go.

How much does the Earth curve over a one foot distance - Math Central

 

[garandman]

Because earth is a sphere when you hang 2 plumb bobs and you measure the distance between the two they are not parallel. Measurement at the bottom is less then it is at the top between the two which means they are angled and not 90 degrees to each other.

^^^ worrying about things that don't matter. The human eye will have more error in it than that variation in the two plumb bobs.

Also... you can't aim at two PoI at one time. So the curvature of the earth at a spot 20 feet from where you are presently aiming is irrelevant. Only your present location and immediate PoA matters. Sure.... the plumb bob at the equator will be 90 degrees to the plumb bob at tha North Pole.

So what?

BTW.... I think you meant "parallel to each other." 90 degrees is a right angle.

 

[RTH1800]

Note to self. Get boots with earth curvature feature built in. How have I missed that all my life??

 

[garandman]

Note to self. Get boots with earth curvature feature built in. How have I missed that all my life??

You also need to shoot off a platform that has a self levelling gyroscopic feature in all your PRS matches.

 

[garandman]

There was a lengthy "discussion" about this over on the 24 hour campfire forum in the optics section. Leupold did a live feed to address customers concerns. They basically thumb their nose at end users. Sealed it FOR ME that i will NEVER own another Leupold. As you can imagine, users were as split as red and blue politics.

Sorry OP, not trying to sidetrack, but educate.

My personal expereince with Leupold (more than 10) > internet rants. Newsflash: People are often unreasonable / ignorant, and often display this on the world weird web.

I wouldn't make ANY decision based solely / largely on the 'net.

 

[hk dave]

Because earth is a sphere when you hang 2 plumb bobs and you measure the distance between the two they are not parallel. Measurement at the bottom is less then it is at the top between the two which means they are angled and not 90 degrees to each other.

This got to be trollin’... there’s just no way...

 

[candyx]

This got to be trollin’... there’s just no way...

Just slap the friggen scope on and shoot the sucker !! If the plumb bobs were truly parallel then the earth would be flat.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Just slap the friggen scope on and shoot the sucker !! If the plumb bobs were truly parallel then the earth would be flat.

Yea but can one tell the difference between perfect a a few ten millionth of an inch? I would say, likely not.

 

[hk dave]

Just slap the friggen scope on and shoot the sucker !! If the plumb bobs were truly parallel then the earth would be flat.

Prove it! Prove the earth is round! I double dog dare you!

 

[LawnMM]

I cannot believe this debate continues 10yrs later. If it's canted, send it back.

It matters where the turrets line up. The erector assembly moves the etched reticle up and down PROVIDED the assembly is plumb with gravity.

If you plumb the reticle with gravity and the elevation/windage assembly is canted, guess what, when you dial either you get both.

Why live with an overly canted reticle when plenty of companies get it right. Fuck that shit, send it back, get a refund, and buy something that doesn't suck.

 

[candyx]

Prove it! Prove the earth is round! I double dog dare you!

Every history class I ever had growing up showed the earth flat and rectangular, the classes that had a globe were progressive liberal teachers so I never brought their shit about the earth being round. Beside if the earth was round it would stand to reason all the water would of fell off but it hasn't , its more like a pool with walls.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

This thread has something for everyone!

 

[_Windrider_]

Every history class I ever had growing up showed the earth flat and rectangular, the classes that had a globe were progressive liberal teachers so I never brought their shit about the earth being round. Beside if the earth was round it would stand to reason all the water would of fell off but it hasn't , its more like a pool with walls.View attachment 7123771View attachment 7123771View attachment 7123771

You are either a master troll or one of the dumbest mother fuckers out there.

 

[_Windrider_]

Actually I have to agree with him. You ever poured water on a coffee table? Falls right off the edge. That's proof enough for me the earth is a flat rectangle with raised edges

I see what you did there.