Rifle Scopes Scope Reticle Design and Sighting Strategies

[djgleeson]

Hello All,

This is my first post on SH, I've lurked for a while as most do and finally joined a few months ago. Post count will always be an issue for me as this site is so inundated with information and feedback as well as varying opinions and viewpoints that with some exploring I can piece together answers to whatever questions I may have. Post count not being up to par, the best way for me to contribute thus far has been to support the vendors and manufacturers who support this site and the precision rifle shooting sport.

I got very experienced competing in the NRA Long-Range and Palma disciplines before severely aggravating a wrist injury in my sling-side arm that a surgery failed to fix. The ensuing 5 competition-free years have been spent focusing on work and renovating the house and with that latter venture nearly accomplished, my wife is encouraging me to find another shooting venue to pursue so I don't go stir crazy. Reading up on the Precision Rifle Series matches last year captured my interest and got the juices flowing again so I'm headed in that direction this time.

My experiences with long-range known-distance static shooting leave me with a very humble and appreciable respect for the dynamic shooting problems presented at the PRS type matches. Barrels, actions, stocks, rings and slings aside, the two variables I've been researching have been cartridge and scope selection. Based on the feedback from this forum and some other sources, the cartridges were easy enough to choose as well as the scope, but the one question I have for this post is based on shooting strategies as applicable to the scope reticle design.

My question is this: How do shooters approach the changing dope for each shot? For each stage? Let me use two Vortex reticle styles as a general example; their EBR-1C and EBR-2C reticles. One is a hashed crosshair, the other has the inclusion of a "tree" reticle to accommodate more extreme hold-offs and both have very finely graduated marks for target measurement. My first impression was that the tree reticle in the EBR-2C style would be ideal in terms of versatility as it offers what the EBR-1C does and then additional reference marks. That seemed intuitive to me, however, from perusing the SH reticle threads, it seems that reticles of the EBR-1C style are very popular, especially in the S&B scopes.

Without getting into a scope-brand discussion, I'm interested in how shooters approach shooting scenarios in PRS type matches, how much do you dial in the dope and how much do you hold off? Does the tree reticle distract from the field of view? I wish I had the appropriate experience to make my own personal decision, but I don't and these tier-1 level scopes are a significant investment, so I'd appreciate any input anyone is willing to give up prior to making a purchase.

Thanks,

Dan Gleeson

 

[Quickdraw40]

I dial unless forced to hold over by stage description or time constraint.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[RobertB]

I like a tree reticle like the G2 but nothing crazy like some of the horus (just me). I dial and hold depending on the situation. If I have time to dial and its a long shot I almost always dial. But usually still hold for the wind. I have tried both to see what kind of difference there is. I can get the same results doing both I believe. Good luck.

Welcome to the greatest place on the net!!!

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I only adjust my turret for the elevation of the shot. Then, I use the reticle for wind holds and movers. This is where a Front Focal Plane scope comes into its own, since it does not matter which magnification you are using, you will also have the ability to get an accurate read on the actual shot placement.

I have the MSR reticle. I was never a fan of the tree holdover designs since it can get confusion when you are under time stress. Adjusting the elevation on my Schmidt and Bender is very easy and quick. Yes, there are personal preferences. For example, some people really like the Horus line of reticles. After I judge the wind, then I use my data card to determine what my hold over is, then aim and fire, all the while constantly watching the wind conditions for micro adjustments. Was there a sudden wind? Is the mirage changing? Should I need favor one edge of the target over the other?

If I were you, I would try out some scopes and look through some reticles. The simple things like turret design is more important than you think. PM me if you have any more questions. Also, where are you located? Competition is the best way to learn and maybe you can meet some people on here to show you the ropes directly.

 

[djgleeson]

I agree wholeheartedly with dialing in the solution if time permits - that's the perfect scenario. Given my lack of experience in this type of shooting competition, I haven't developed anything more than a theoretical plan for the different shooting problems that would be presented. In the case of multiple UKD targets that need to be engaged within a time limit (does completing the course in less time equate to a higher point count??), does it pay to be deliberate and dial in the elevation for each target if they're spaced far enough apart - or does familiarity with the use of a reticle tree pay dividends in certain situations?

 

[djgleeson]

RobertB - thanks for the welcome! I used to explore SH back in the early 2000's and now more than ever this site is a valuable information source, especially given the talent pool occupying it. I agree with the Horus reticle being a bit busy for my taste - I'd rather not have my field of view cluttered with indicators... unless the indicators prove to be a useful tool, even in just niche situations (i.e. 10% of the time).

 

[djgleeson]

NevadaZeilmeister - my experience is with string-firing in static target/distance situations, mostly with iron sights. With the irons, I'd dial in the elevation and windage and twist the knob as necessary for wind shot-to-shot. With the scope, there was more of a hold-over for wind due to how much reaching all the way forward to adjust the scope knobs would gradually disintegrate the position, i.e. dial in the wind for the predominant, say, 8moa condition and trim as necessary shot-to-shot or hold off from shooting during major wind changes (BTW - MOA is prevalent in NRA shooting due to its correlation with the ring size on the targets - I'm switching to MRAD for this type of shooting).

Ideally, as mentioned in my post above, I'd like to have the luxury of dialing in the correct dope for each shot, but I'm not sure if the course of fire is sometimes graded on time similarly to how IDPA matches are scored (less time = more points), so perhaps the tree would be a useful tool to have to accelerate the engagement times, particularly at 800yds and under. Ballistics seem to get more sensitive past that distance.

May I ask what your approach to shooting multiple UKD targets during a stage of fire from say... 400-1000yds would be for your method of sighting? Would you dial in the elevation for each of those shots - i.e. master the scope turrent manipulation without the need to use a tree?

I'm located in Delaware, a bit far from where the major matches are held, but within 20 minutes of the Bridgeville 600yd/1000yd range, but they are predominantly NRA style shooting.

 

[RobertB]

I ran several little courses we set up the other day out to 750 using nothing but holdover and did it fast for myself. I personally like the tree, it doesn't confuse me at all and actually makes things go smoother and gives me more confidence. I don't have to look at my horizonatal line to see how much wind I got on the hold and trace it back to my POA. I LOVE the G2 reticle for this. Not confusing at all and all you need usually and nothing you don't. One of my biggest mentors in learning LR shooting told me great advice. "Over anything, master your scope, inside and out. Know it like you know the back of your hand. When things get stressfull you need to know what your doing as the scope is VERY important." I see guys all the time put wind on the wrong way or hold while they are already dialed in. And also not knowing where there zero is and getting lost being a rev off. I has happened to me but these days it happens a lot less because I know where zero is and try to always be thinking about whats on the turrets already. Shooting with a reticle only you will never have to worry about that. But, I still dial too, just know where your at. That's all. S&B has a great turret to keep you in line. Zero stops are great to although I personally don't use them. People seem to think they are a must now a days but to me they are a plus. Mastering your scope on the other hand is a must.

Good luck!!!

 

[djgleeson]

NevadaZielmeister - one more salient point you made was regarding time stress. Lets say I spend 90% of my time dialing in the actual solutions for the targets with the turrents, so with say, the 10% of the situations which a tree reticle would be useful, perhaps it is a better strategy to stick with the method that I'm most familiar with? But not having attended a match, I'm not sure how often a tree reticle would be a useful tool? Enough to warrant mastery?

 

[djgleeson]

RobertB - that is excellent advice and very helpful, thank you. It was drilled into me early in my Palma shooting career never to let a shot go downrange without knowing what the windage on the rear sight was, so I can totally relate. To clear up your wind shooting approach - did you mean to say that you hold off for all your wind to remove the need to look at the windage knob?

 

[damoncali]

My brain gets angry with me if I try to hold off too much. Something in there wants me to put the target in the middle of the reticle. Maybe it's from my background shooting high power service rifles where all your effort is placed on keeping everything in the middle. But for whatever reason, I find it really unsettling to hold off.

 

[RobertB]

I usually hold, yes. But really doesn't matter if your referring to getting lost if you always know what you got on the turrets. Whether its wind or elv, just know what you got dialed. I usually hold for wind as its usally changing. Distance usually isn't changing and if it is its probably wont be much. Just always know what you got on it, bottom line. If you have to dial back down to zero to confirm do that. I used to have to do that a lot and it payed off a few times. A data book can be of value at times in that area.

 

[Rob01]

Never used a tree type reticle and have no problems doing holds when needed. It's more about practice. The situation needs to dictate whether you hold or dial. I dial as much as I can and I hold all my wind. I like holding wind as if it changes or dies I can compensate on the fly without having to touch the windage knob. Also it's one less thing you need to do when shooting as you are always looking through the reticle but you have to reach over to touch the windage knob.

You need to go shoot a match and try it as I think you are thinking way too much and confusing yourself a little. There are matches in Maryland, WV, and PA. All easy drives from where you are. I drive to them and I am farther away.

 

[RobertB]

True, practice is 100% the most important thing with your scope. Like I said earlier. MASTER IT!!!

You can use any reticle just about as long as you know it well

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

NevadaZeilmeister - my experience is with string-firing in static target/distance situations, mostly with iron sights. With the irons, I'd dial in the elevation and windage and twist the knob as necessary for wind shot-to-shot. With the scope, there was more of a hold-over for wind due to how much reaching all the way forward to adjust the scope knobs would gradually disintegrate the position, i.e. dial in the wind for the predominant, say, 8moa condition and trim as necessary shot-to-shot or hold off from shooting during major wind changes (BTW - MOA is prevalent in NRA shooting due to its correlation with the ring size on the targets - I'm switching to MRAD for this type of shooting).

Ideally, as mentioned in my post above, I'd like to have the luxury of dialing in the correct dope for each shot, but I'm not sure if the course of fire is sometimes graded on time similarly to how IDPA matches are scored (less time = more points), so perhaps the tree would be a useful tool to have to accelerate the engagement times, particularly at 800yds and under. Ballistics seem to get more sensitive past that distance.

May I ask what your approach to shooting multiple UKD targets during a stage of fire from say... 400-1000yds would be for your method of sighting? Would you dial in the elevation for each of those shots - i.e. master the scope turrent manipulation without the need to use a tree?

I'm located in Delaware, a bit far from where the major matches are held, but within 20 minutes of the Bridgeville 600yd/1000yd range, but they are predominantly NRA style shooting.

DJ,

My local match has a course of fire for Varmint Silhouette as follows: Squirrels at 200 meters, Crows and Woodchucks at 400 meters, Rabbits at 500 meters and Coyotes at 800 meters. I get one shot per target between the 5 different targets. So I am always dialing my elevation when my next target is called. I get 3 minutes to fire all 5 shots. Now of course, those are known distances. In ranges to unknown distances, you are going to have a tough time unless you know landmarks and the distances to those, and then guess. For instance: The coyote is running perpendicular between those two trees and so when I ranged those trees earlier, it was 457 meters. So I dial my scope for a shot range of 450 meters and start my shot mechanics.

Using the tree method works for some, not for others. I cannot say which is best until you actual do it yourself. For example: I used my illumination on my S&B last year as I took a chance shooting after sunset (it is illegal to shoot at night here in Nevada). I thought that one level of illumination would work, like my Nightforce. But quickly found that too bright of an illuminated reticle really obscured the target. I would not have known that at all had I not tried it myself. So you are going to have to try them out yourself and figure out what is best.

I quickly learned in my matches that I need FFP, single or boodle turn turrets, zero stop and adjustable parallax. Once I knew how I liked those things, then I concentrated on a reticle. I did a ton of research and based on my own personal experience, realized that the Horus would have been a nightmare. Doing a hold off at let us say 4.3 milliradians elevation and then 1.2 wind hold, would place my point of impact between dots. This to me seems confusing, and adding to confusion in the fog of war (timed stress) really makes me miss the shot.

As for NRA shooting. I like it somewhat. But the bench resting and other impractical aspects really did not rub me the right way. When you start shooting at angles, across valleys, having to make all of the different allowances for terrain and atmospherics, all the while running around to different spots and having to start all over. This is the essence of practical (tactical?) long range shooting. These types of matches will really expose flaws in your shooting ability, then you will grow and be a MUCH better shooter. Our Long Range Varmint Silhouette matches now draw the biggest crowds (30+) over the NRA 600 and 1000 matches that you mention. Yes, practicing at those ranges is great, but they do not really lend themselves to reality. (i.e. flags, known distance, flat ground, HUGE ASS bench rest, etc.)

Hope this helps.

 

[RobertB]

YEs, I find the Horus WAY too busy. I think the G2 is about perfect. I wish it was offered in more scopes. You can go overboard.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Range it correctly, hold and shoot.
I learned on brackets long ago,... bracket the target hold the wind an shoot and most of the time you owned it.
Later in my shooting I started to dial everything, what a mistake that was when shooting run and guns. With the reticules I now use, I can hold 60 IPHY of up and 40 each way of wind. Now if I could get the X at the top of reticule I've have what I want. (Tired of telling others where the 100yd zero is on my junk) Everyone shoots differently but when pressed for time, holding is the quickest way to tag targets at different ranges over spinning a knob. Very easy to learn but, if you shoot a can make sure your droop is included in your dope, or knob only the droop in and go for broke.

 

[djgleeson]

Thank you all very much for your inputs - the varying approaches to using the reticle were what I wanted to learn more about when I started this thread. I don't want to plan to use a certain strategy before I even start this game as it more than likely will change as I adapt. A part of me believes that I'll find a tree a useful tool just so as long as I take time to master it as some have said. I've been looking at Vortex's Razor scopes so their EBR-2C reticle is my first choice as of now - it doesn't seem to be too obtrusive in the FOV in the event I decide to forgo the tree and stick with dialing. I also believe I'd benefit from the opportunity to experiment with dialing and hold-overs.

 

[djgleeson]

Nevada - I'm on the same page with you regarding the NRA/Benchrest vs. Precision/Practical rifle shooting. I didn't get into F-class or Benchrest after I had to stop sling-shooting in 2009, there's just something about holding the rifle up yourself and the precision rifle sport requires a more complete mastery of your rifle/sighting system and that's very attractive to me in the performance aspect.

 

[Rob01]

Good reticle choice OP. The EBR-2C is not obtrusive and a useful reticle. Have used it's older brother the EBR-2B in the Razor 5-20x50 but never in a match. Plan on getting it in the new 4.5-27.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

OP, let us know how you like the reticle after you get a chance to use it. While I am not a fan of this EBR-2C reticle, I am curious to get your opinion after you have had a chance to actually use it. Meanwhile, let me give you an example of my reticle:



It is the MSR reticle from the fine gents at Finn Accuracy. Here is a really great video showing the reticle in action: Longrange blog 23: MSR reticle - YouTube

I have corresponded with Thomas Haugland and he is VERY experienced, just stuck in Finland.

For unknown distances I can get really good measurements that have proven accurate to within 10 meters based on my previous experience. The battle ranging, however, I have not used that much. I never had to range a human yet ;-)

Good luck and let us know what you finally decide on and how things ultimately turn out!

 

[Rob01]

Nevada the EBR-2C and EBR-1C both have .1 mil marks out on the left, right and upper edges so very accurate miling is as simple as the MSR. Same for holds or corrections especially with the 2C and it's tree marks.

 

[pangelos]

Gonna bring this back up...hopefully you guys can answer some questions for me. I've always dialed both wind and elevation and at the last comp I was at everyone else in the squad was holding wind. My struggle is holding say 0.7mil wind. There is really no reference point in the reticle (using a msr and a p4f) to use to hold that exact spot it's guessing at best. I know that holding wind would be more efficient and less chance of error (dialed wind the wrong way at one station) but I have a hard time getting an exact spot to use as a reference point. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Thanks

 

[Rob01]

Gonna bring this back up...hopefully you guys can answer some questions for me. I've always dialed both wind and elevation and at the last comp I was at everyone else in the squad was holding wind. My struggle is holding say 0.7mil wind. There is really no reference point in the reticle (using a msr and a p4f) to use to hold that exact spot it's guessing at best. I know that holding wind would be more efficient and less chance of error (dialed wind the wrong way at one station) but I have a hard time getting an exact spot to use as a reference point. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Thanks

Practice. Learn to break down the reticle. With a reticle with .5 mil marks .75 mils is exactly between .5 and 1 mil so it should be easy to find. Just like using the reticle for ranging, when using it for holds you need to know how to break the reticle down into .1 mil increments and only practice will do that.

 

[pangelos]

Practice. Learn to break down the reticle. With a reticle with .5 mil marks .75 mils is exactly between .5 and 1 mil so it should be easy to find. Just like using the reticle for ranging, when using it for holds you need to know how to break the reticle down into .1 mil increments and only practice will do that.

Thanks Rob01. Yea it's something I def need to practice going to go work on it today (winds are 15+ right now). So I'm guessing it's more of a getting a "feel" for where to hold the wind than an exact mark or hash on the reticle and that make sense just something that is foreign to me at the moment. I've held for wind but I reference to the target (say left edge of target) and I know that's not as accurate due to different size target. I need to get out of the mindset that the + is where I need to hold for my shot. Thanks again. I'll go give it a whirl.

 

[Lowlight]

There is a definitive value for wind, holding the "edge" of the plate is not a wind call if you don't understand wind calls require a value and that value is based on the bullet used and distance shot.

You can use a ballistic computer to make a chart and then you'll have that actual value necessary or you can use these formulas as well as others to determine your hold. Just like elevation, there is an actual value.

The most common formula used is:


Range in 100 yards x Wind Speed in MPH / Wind Constant = MOA Hold


The MOA Based Constant(s) are:
100 to 500 yards = 15
600 yards = 14
700 to 800 yards = 13
900 yards = 12
1000 yards = 11


Mil Based Constant(s)
<= 500 = 45
600 = 43
700 = 41
800 = 39
900 = 38
1000 = 37




This formula you would use for a 175gr 308, in order to get the constant for other calibers you must work the formula backwards based off the actual hold you used. People will argue that these formulas are good for field use, however in 2012 it’s much easier to derive drift using a computer. In order to determine the correct constant for your actual bullet, you would use the following formula.


Range in 100 yard x Wind Speed in MPH / Corrected Wind Hold = True Constant

 

[pangelos]

There is a definitive value for wind, holding the "edge" of the plate is not a wind call if you don't understand wind calls require a value and that value is based on the bullet used and distance shot.

You can use a ballistic computer to make a chart and then you'll have that actual value necessary or you can use these formulas as well as others to determine your hold. Just like elevation, there is an actual value.

The most common formula used is:


Range in 100 yards x Wind Speed in MPH / Wind Constant = MOA Hold


The MOA Based Constant(s) are:
100 to 500 yards = 15
600 yards = 14
700 to 800 yards = 13
900 yards = 12
1000 yards = 11


Mil Based Constant(s)
<= 500 = 45
600 = 43
700 = 41
800 = 39
900 = 38
1000 = 37




This formula you would use for a 175gr 308, in order to get the constant for other calibers you must work the formula backwards based off the actual hold you used. People will argue that these formulas are good for field use, however in 2012 it’s much easier to derive drift using a computer. In order to determine the correct constant for your actual bullet, you would use the following for

Range in 100 yard x Wind Speed in MPH / Corrected Wind Hold = True Constant

I agree 100% that an edge of plate is not a wind call. It's something that I was taught when I first started long range shooting and has kind of stuck with me. Now trying to retrain myself to use correct way to call and hold wind. I did go out an practice today holding the wind and it was tough but I am slowly starting to get the hang of it. I was holding a 1.8mil wind on a 900 yard target and felt fairly comfortable using a msr reticle. I still need to practice it a lot more though.

I do have the correct tools to make a good wind call (kestrel with AB) it's the holding wind and not dialing wind that I am struggling with. That being said lowlight the formula that you posted is interesting but I'm not understanding it. If I'm shooting at 500yds with a 10 mph wind using the equation for mils I come up with 111 (500x10/45) am I doing this right or am I missing something? And if I'm correct what does the 111 represent. Probably a simple answer and a dumb question but I'm a little lost on it. Thanks

 

[Lowlight]

A 500 yard target with a wind speed of 10MPH is a 1.1 hold in mils.

5x10/45= 1.1

holding is is exactly the same as dialing, the reticle has value exactly the same as a turret. It's a ruler, you match the value of the reticle to target. It's just more dynamic, but works in both the vertical and horizontal plane at once instead of independently like your turrets.

Its the most basic of formulas.

 

[pangelos]

A 500 yard target with a wind speed of 10MPH is a 1.1 hold in mils.

5x10/45= 1.1

holding is is exactly the same as dialing, the reticle has value exactly the same as a turret. It's a ruler, you match the value of the reticle to target. It's just more dynamic, but works in both the vertical and horizontal plane at once instead of independently like your turrets.

Its the most basic of formulas.

Thanks that makes sense now. (On the formula)

So do you feel that you can be just as accurate holding for wind/elevation as you can dialing? That is my struggle is I feel better dialing but due to time constraints shooting in a comp feel that I could do better if I learn to hold for wind.

 

[JL]

Small correction-

Thomas Haugland is Norwegian, and he doesn't have anything to do with FinnAccuracy/Finland or with MSR reticle design.
We borrowed our own scope for hes video years ago, but did not blackmail or bribe him to like it.

It is the MSR reticle from the fine gents at Finn Accuracy.
I have corresponded with Thomas Haugland and he is VERY experienced, just stuck in Finland.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Small correction-

Thomas Haugland is Norwegian, and he doesn't have anything to do with FinnAccuracy/Finland or with MSR reticle design.
We borrowed our own scope for hes video years ago, but did not blackmail or bribe him to like it.

Actually, that is a big correction, especially if you ask Mr. Haugland. He was kind enough to correct me in another forum (youtube).

Great reticle. I love it, as does my squad mate. We both will be using it at the upcoming Sniper's Hide Cup.

 

[Lowlight]

There were bribes available? I missed that memo, cause my competition rifles use the MSR reticle too... One of the best Reticles available to the tactical / competition shooter.