Second thoughts on first scope

[thelaststraw]

I'm pretty new to rifles still. I threw together as it turns out a pretty decent small frame AR but went a bit cheap on the glass. The gun was just to have a platform to refine rifle handl ioading and to take a class or two on fundamentals.

While at a recent class I discover how little I prioritized clarity when buying my first scope. It appears to track true enough for a sub $1k scope (Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25) but the clarity sucks, even at 16x. It's not unusable by any means but i saw trace for the first time at the class and it was hit or miss after that, even after knowing what to look for. That's not so important to me yet but the scope is like looking through goggles underwater.

My question is about upgrades such as the Tract Toric s or Burris XTR II/III which I've never seen. Would I be missing much compared to a Mark 5HD which I have looked through (3-18x)?

Is it a very big step up to the Kahles or Zeiss, or is this where the diminishing returns really come in? I imagine the Burris and Tract would be a sizeable upgrade for me to grow into and move to a bolt rig in the future. Would the extra grand net $1k worth of value to me with the Kahles/Zeiss while learning?

I plan to hit some local PRS with current gasser and same with a bolt rig next year hopefully and some field matches like NRL hunter and such. I'm committed to the sport at this point but can't go ZCO/TT yet AND build a real rifle come spring time.

 

[Steel head]

Even the best scopes don’t guarantee seeing trace as environmental factors are a big contribution.

Going from a cheaper vortex to something like the Razor 2, tract, Mk5 or similar scope is a nice jump in glass.

Possibly the biggest gain for the $$$.

I went from years with a vortex HS-T to a Cronus and was really impressed with it and still use it for my ELR rifle.

Beyond that I see smaller gains for the $$$ but the gains in clarity are certainly there.

I use an ancient Horus scope on my 260, glass is Meh but reticle is decent and it’s reliable, out to 1000ish it absolutely doesn’t hold me back.

 

[thelaststraw]

I appreciate the info to gauge the upgrade. I have an idea of the Mk5 to what I have but didn't have mine to do a side by side. I may just stick to that G2 Razor/Tract/Mk5 range and have coin for components and a rifle. I want an upgrade for sure since I underspent too much initially. At least it will be a serviceable backup to whatever I get.

 

[264win]

Solid advice above, the gen2 razor, mk5, DMR 2 pro, etc are the biggest improvement for the $$.

 

[thelaststraw]

Interesting you add a Bushnell, I didn't even consider them. Is there a reason you say DMR II Pro vs the XRS? I don't ever read or hear much on them, is Bushnell just a commonly overlooked brand?

 

[b6graham]

i dont really think trace is any harder to see with a strike eagle versus a razor gen 2 or even a 7-35 atacr.

it's not always even present first off due to environmentals. bullet mass and speed make a difference too.

if it feels like you're looking through water that makes me feel like there's something else going on. i can see impacts on steel out pretty far with a 22lr and same for centerfire out to distance too

 

[thelaststraw]

It's kind of foggy looking or hazy almost. I wasn't aware of the environmental conditions being as big a factor. I don't feel drawn to needing to see trace as much as impacts. One hole can look like a one inch group of three at 100. I was actually very surprised when I did see trace in my scope. Maybe there is something wrong with mine.....idk. I just thought that was sub $1k glass.

 

[Birddog6424]

The XTR3 is a solid comparison in glass to the MK5, with a better eyebox and FOV. Its nicer than both DMRII Pros I've compared to. Like the MK5 its made in America with Japanese glass.

The XTR3 is one of the most overlooked great value optics on the Hide, in spite of the multitude of great reviews. Its pretty hard to find someone who doesn't like theirs. Its even harder to find someone who has had to send theirs in for warranty work in the last year, and I have yet to hear of anyone who has had one that didn't track. Glass is excellent, FOV is the best amongst its peers.

And a new version of the XTR3 with some VERY cool features is getting ready to drop very soon.

 

[beetroot]

The XTR3 is a solid comparison in glass to the MK5, with a better eyebox and FOV. Its nicer than both DMRII Pros I've compared to. Like the MK5 its made in America with Japanese glass.

The XTR3 is one of the most overlooked great value optics on the Hide, in spite of the multitude of great reviews. Its pretty hard to find someone who doesn't like theirs. Its even harder to find someone who has had to send theirs in for warranty work in the last year, and I have yet to hear of anyone who has had one that didn't track. Glass is excellent, FOV is the best amongst its peers.

And a new version of the XTR3 with some VERY cool features is getting ready to drop very soon.

I don't think hide members have over looked it, most of us are still waiting for the illuminated version.

Burris is just lucky all the competition in the XTR3 price range has a bunch of glaring issues.
If the NX8 wasn't such a turd (glass wise), the Mark 5 charged so much for illumination and had decent reticle, the DMR2 didn't tunnel like a mo-fo and the Gen 2 Razor wasn't so damn heavy, there would be very few reasons to pick the Burris.

 

[Rob01]

It's kind of foggy looking or hazy almost. I wasn't aware of the environmental conditions being as big a factor. I don't feel drawn to needing to see trace as much as impacts. One hole can look like a one inch group of three at 100. I was actually very surprised when I did see trace in my scope. Maybe there is something wrong with mine.....idk. I just thought that was sub $1k glass.

If it looks like googles looking underwater then something is wrong. Either that or it was the environmental conditions with heavy mirage. I have had heavy mirage where I had to turn a S&B 5-25 down to 10x to make a shot.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

What Rob said. I've looked through the 5-25x56 Strike Eagle and it was great for a sub-$1k scope. Also, as mentioned, if you don't have experience with heavy mirage, it's like looking through a lens with grease smeared on it - but everything in the image is moving. Bad glass wouldn't look that way - the image would be still and blurred instead of bubbling and blurred.

Do you have knowledgeable buddies who could take a peek and offer an opinion? Sounds like a call to Vortex could be in order. If you send the scope back, do yourself a favor: Stay Away from the franchise UPS/FedEx/etc stores, because they will overcharge you even if they don't refuse your package because it's a "gun part" (if you say it's a rifle scope instead of a telescope). Rather, go to the UPS or FedEx sites, figure out how to create and pay for your own label, and drop the package at a pickup point (again, found on the UPS/FedEx/etc web site). For example, I use UPS most of the time because there's a pickup point at an auto parts store very convenient to my home.

My $.02.

 

[thelaststraw]

I'm familiar with mirage, had a trial by fire deep in Louisiana with a 20" barrel and suppressor. I'm usually in 12-16x range and only turn up on occasion. Since I've been strictly working positional stuff it gives me better results for some reason.

I almost jumped on that K624 in the PX. I appreciate the help and I guess I may have unconsciously trying to buy hits. From what people have said here, I think I may be better off just practicing more and eventually I'll know better what I 'need' when I need it.

 

[Secant]

IMO, best bang for your buck optics will be in the mid teens for price (Gen 2 Razor, Mk5, etc). The Kahles, Tangent, ZCO are obviously better in my experience, which is reflected by the increase in price. While a better scope won't make you a better shooter, there's something to be said about a reliable scope with a more enjoyable viewing experience that makes it easier to spot your hits/misses. I think I would recommend buying a ZCO, and then focus on slowly obtaining parts for your "real" rifle down the road. You can always upgrade a rifle, but you can't upgrade your optic.

However, the good news about slowly working through the optics ladder is that if you pay attention, you can sell an optic for about what you pay for it (buy used, look for sales, understand the secondary market, etc.). Not to mention, everybody should own at least one Gen 2 Razor LOL.

 

[smoothy8500]

Sounds like a call to Vortex could be in order.

Probably was mirage as you said.

On a side note: If it does go back, what are the betting odds that Vortex uses the standard CS response "the rings were too tight"?

 

[fdkay]

I'm pretty new to rifles still. I threw together as it turns out a pretty decent small frame AR but went a bit cheap on the glass. The gun was just to have a platform to refine rifle handl ioading and to take a class or two on fundamentals.

While at a recent class I discover how little I prioritized clarity when buying my first scope. It appears to track true enough for a sub $1k scope (Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25) but the clarity sucks, even at 16x. It's not unusable by any means but i saw trace for the first time at the class and it was hit or miss after that, even after knowing what to look for. That's not so important to me yet but the scope is like looking through goggles underwater.

My question is about upgrades such as the Tract Toric s or Burris XTR II/III which I've never seen. Would I be missing much compared to a Mark 5HD which I have looked through (3-18x)?

Is it a very big step up to the Kahles or Zeiss, or is this where the diminishing returns really come in? I imagine the Burris and Tract would be a sizeable upgrade for me to grow into and move to a bolt rig in the future. Would the extra grand net $1k worth of value to me with the Kahles/Zeiss while learning?

I plan to hit some local PRS with current gasser and same with a bolt rig next year hopefully and some field matches like NRL hunter and such. I'm committed to the sport at this point but can't go ZCO/TT yet AND build a real rifle come spring time.

Sightron make a dandy scope that @gr8fuldoug has on sale right now.
It is a 6-24, which may not be what you're looking for, but it falls in the same category as your current 5-25 with much better glass and internals:

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

 

[Neurotic]

The XTR3 is a solid comparison in glass to the MK5, with a better eyebox and FOV. Its nicer than both DMRII Pros I've compared to. Like the MK5 its made in America with Japanese glass.

The XTR3 is one of the most overlooked great value optics on the Hide, in spite of the multitude of great reviews. Its pretty hard to find someone who doesn't like theirs. Its even harder to find someone who has had to send theirs in for warranty work in the last year, and I have yet to hear of anyone who has had one that didn't track. Glass is excellent, FOV is the best amongst its peers.

And a new version of the XTR3 with some VERY cool features is getting ready to drop very soon.

I can't wait to find out what my XTR3 is missing!!!

 

[Birddog6424]

I don't think hide members have over looked it, most of us are still waiting for the illuminated version.

Burris is just lucky all the competition in the XTR3 price range has a bunch of glaring issues.
If the NX8 wasn't such a turd (glass wise), the Mark 5 charged so much for illumination and had decent reticle, the DMR2 didn't tunnel like a mo-fo and the Gen 2 Razor wasn't so damn heavy, there would be very few reasons to pick the Burris.

Haha, perfect case in point..

You think the Burris only has merit due to the flaws of the competition. No credit for the strengths it brings to the table in easy eyebox, peer leading FOV, exemplary durability and reliability, as good or better glass as anything in the sub 2k price point.

Side by side it pretty much edges out in one way or another pretty much every scope from Japan. The sight picture is always just a little bigger, a little brighter.

At $1700 for the 30x I think it has plenty of merit to justify buying it over the competition. Something you seem to overlook while saying you're not overlooking it

 

[beetroot]

Haha, perfect case in point..

You think the Burris only has merit due to the flaws of the competition. No credit for the strengths it brings to the table in easy eyebox, peer leading FOV, exemplary durability and reliability, as good or better glass as anything in the sub 2k price point.

Side by side it pretty much edges out in one way or another pretty much every scope from Japan. The sight picture is always just a little bigger, a little brighter.

At $1700 for the 30x I think it has plenty of merit to justify buying it over the competition. Something you seem to overlook while saying you're not overlooking it

I agree (in principle) that there are many merits but without illumination (and the thicker reticle) the XTR3 has it's own major flaw.

Obviously not everyone thinks the thin non-illuminated reticle is a set back but a lot of people do, including many who have reviewed the scope.

I'm mostly playing devils advocate here as I think the 3.3-18 with the thicker illuminated reticle will be just the scope I'm wanting (and been willing to wait for). I think once the new version drops it'll be a big hit but until then the lack of illumination is what's holding the XTR3 back (for guys on the hide at least) not that it has been over looked.

 

[Average guy]

This is a damn good deal. It’s a basic reticle, but workable. Japanese glass. Still wonder why I haven’t bought one.

Sightron make a dandy scope that @gr8fuldoug has on sale right now.
It is a 6-24, which may not be what you're looking for, but it falls in the same category as your current 5025 with much better glass and internals:

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

 

[Steel head]

Interesting you add a Bushnell, I didn't even consider them. Is there a reason you say DMR II Pro vs the XRS? I don't ever read or hear much on them, is Bushnell just a commonly overlooked brand?

The elite bushy’s have always been a solid option, especially now that glass has been improved.

Not flashy or trendy but a solid working scope.
Made at LOW just like the razor, Cronus and many other $1400-2000 scopes.

 

[Average guy]

Another good option is the Brownells MPO scopes. Made in Japan by JOL. Ilya is very high on these scopes

 

[thelaststraw]

I'll start looking more thoroughly at some of the options y'all gave. I appreciate the feedback on what must be a seemingly endless topic. I probably should be getting a tripod before I replace a functioning scope at this stage of the game anyway. Thank you everyone for your assistance, it's greatly appreciated.

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

The absolute best advice is something I was often seeing on the online firearms community when I first started chatting on forums like this in '09/'10 ... "Buy Once, Cry Once" ...

Otherwise what you do is you buy a $200 scope like a Nikon ProStaff ( which I have several of and love, and are worth every dime, I'm just making a point here...) and you start thinking, "I really could have gone up to $300..." ... and then what you do is next month you buy a $500 scope because you feel the need for more quality , and you get a Vortex Venom for $500 on Amazon. BUT... then you see a sale on something, maybe an Athlon Ares for $800 and you fall in love with it... and you start saving ... but at the time of purchase, you say, you know what, I am just going to say "SCREW IT" and get the $1,000 Trijicon you have been scheming on for some time now.

And not that you have $1000 to blow, but if you have $200 +$500 + $1,000 to blow, you might as well just blow the $1,000 and not have $700 in now-'used' scopes that maybe you can sell, maybe not, maybe you have a use for , maybe not.

Buy Once Cry Once. I bought a $309 Athlon Argos BTR 6-20x50mm for my new Tikka T3X UPR early this year... and a month later had to have a Brownell's MPO which I absolutely love .. both of them. But ... the Athlon... has been sitting in the corner of my bedroom on the floor ever since. Buy Once Cry Once. Especially as it seems you're going to be going for a pretty expensive piece...