Seekins Havak Action Question

[GBMaryland]

I was recently looking for a Remington 700 footprint action.

While looking over the field, and really wanting something with a quick change for the barrels, I took a good look a the Havak (sp?).

I called Seekins and they basically told me that the Havak is not compatible with the Remington 700 foot print, and any 3rd party chassis that use it - without modifying the action or the chassis.

Anyone have experience with this?

GB

 

[Spectre3]

There's other options in a similar price range that will allow you to change barrels and calibers. If you're switching between rounds with different case head diameters( i.e switching between 6.5 cm/ 223/ 6.5 PRC), the Zermatt actions have swappable bolt heads. So does ARC. You can buy bolt heads and barrels and have cheaper caliber swaps than something that requires an entire bolt. If that's not a requirement, Tikkas can take shouldered prefits. Bergaras and R700s can do the same with remage barrels. If you have more room in the budget, Terminus has the easiest barrel change in the industry but will require an entire bolt for different case diameters.

As to the Seekins, a few companies used to sell prefits for them but stopped because they found that the actions varied too much. You can try buying barrels from Seekins but you're going to have to wait. Some people have put Havaks in other stocks/chassis, but I don't know how much stock work that required.

 

[Baron23]

There's other options in a similar price range that will allow you to change barrels and calibers. If you're switching between rounds with different case head diameters( i.e switching between 6.5 cm/ 223/ 6.5 PRC), the Zermatt actions have swappable bolt heads. So does ARC. You can buy bolt heads and barrels and have cheaper caliber swaps than something that requires an entire bolt. If that's not a requirement, Tikkas can take shouldered prefits. Bergaras and R700s can do the same with remage barrels. If you have more room in the budget, Terminus has the easiest barrel change in the industry but will require an entire bolt for different case diameters.

As to the Seekins, a few companies used to sell prefits for them but stopped because they found that the actions varied too much. You can try buying barrels from Seekins but you're going to have to wait. Some people have put Havaks in other stocks/chassis, but I don't know how much stock work that required.

He bought a CDG and his question was related to the Seekins action footprints compatibility w chassis/stock made to accept Rem 700.

@GBMaryland - as we talked, I have a BA that uses a Seekins Havak and it drops into my JAE flawlessly. No issues whatsoever.

I have a feeling that Seekins is really not into selling actions as much as they are into selling Havak rifles using the actions they produce.

 

[GBMaryland]

Well, I’m wondering is whether the old actions were completely Remington 700 compatible whereas the current ones may not be?

 

[TheOE800]

HAVAK Action

The action has arrived. With its bead blasted finish and spiral fluting this action is the foundation of a custom rifle that is sure to exceed your precision rifle requirements. The action has 4 locking lugs with 90 degree bolt throw. The lugs are orient

seekinsprecision.com

• Available in: REM 700 short action + REM 700 long action stock inlet and trigger pattern

Sounds like the Seekins rep jerked you around. Their product page for the Havak action says R700 stock inlet and trigger pattern. Look at that beautiful round bottom.

 

[GBMaryland]

He made a point of indicating that he was talking about the current version of the havok

 

[Baron23]

He made a point of indicating that he was talking about the current version of the havok

And I personally think he was blowing smoke at you.

The "upgraded" action relates to differences in the bolt and breech plug (and while I own one, I have zero idea WTF is a breech plug on this baby) and as far as I know the action body is the same. This came from my convos with Seekins wrt to sending my action in for their free update and this is what I was explicitly told. No mention of an upgraded action body too.

Eh...maybe they just don't like you? ;-) LOL

Oh, and the short actions are in stock at Seekins. Bit surprised by that.

 

[GBMaryland]

Wouldn’t be the first person who didn’t like me…. But he was very clear that any stock would require modification, or the action we need to be modified.

Anyone from seekins on here?

 

[TonyG]

There might be a "lost in translation thing" going on here. The Seekins Havak Hit will NOT fit any other chassis but it's own. It has a flat bottom action and the recoil lug is part of the chassis that the action fits onto. The Hit has an incredibly easy barrel switching system, also. Don't know about their other action.

 

[GBMaryland]

That would make more sense, and the guy wasn’t very clear on the difference between the havak and the havak HIT.

 

[TonyG]

Maybe he's not aware of the other one? Hard to believe that would be the case. Every time I talked to a rep they knew their stuff.

 

[GBMaryland]

He indicated that he was nearly positive. It will be the current action and not the prior models of the action. It’s entirely possible vina vina be making the standard Remington 700 and print anymore….

Maybe if we’re Lucky someone from the company will show up in the thread.

 

[Baron23]

Wouldn’t be the first person who didn’t like me

Doing better than me...everybody dislikes me...even me! haha

Every time I talked to a rep they knew their stuff.

Thanks for the info, Tony. Didn't know squat about the HIT but I was pretty sure that the Havak action....used in the Havak Pro for example and the only action they show selling as an separate part....was indeed a round body R700 compatible profile. Mine sure is. I don't think they sell very many Havak actions as separate parts. Don't hear people talking about building off of one...well, really at all. This particular action was won by someone I know and that's why it got used. After a couple of hundred rounds it smoothed out very nicely and I haven't had a bit of trouble with it.

I have only talked to Seekins twice but I had the same experience....very clear and knowledgeable individual. Maybe @GBMaryland called during lunch hour and he got the janitor on the phone? ;-)

 

[GBMaryland]

I suspect the difference was the fact that I was looking for easy barrel changes…. And that lead you to only being able to purchase they Havak Hit.

 

[Baron23]

It’s entirely possible vina vina be making the standard Remington 700 and print anymore….

Oh, I think they will certainly continue to make the basic Havak action. My understanding is that the HIT was designed to meet PRS Factory class requirements.

They are still selling Havak PH2, Havak Element, and Havak Bravo to the best of my knowledge. Nice rifles....a friend of mine on the eastern shore uses an Element (I believe that's the model he uses) for crop damage permit hunting....often at pretty long range...and he likes is a lot.

Cheers

 

[Cjk2008]

Not to hijack this thread but what are the havok actions made out of? Are they stainless encased in aluminum? Or are they solid stainless? I’m trying to decide on a Ph2 or an element I can’t decide if the $1000 extra for the element is worth it!

Thanks!

 

[MrPaul]

I believe they make the action for their lightweight hunting rifle encased in aluminum for lightweight. The others are steel. I could be wrong. I haven't seen the hunting action sold separately. I have a stand alone long action that is definitely solid steel. It's not light at all. Planning on making a .300 prc with it when I get around to it.

 

[Varminterror]

The Hit is a different action from the standard Havak, although sharing the same bolt and breach block (think kinda like Ruger American vs. RPR - same deal). All of the Seekins bolt rifles use the same barrel tenon and headspace dimensions, because they all use the same bolt and the same breach block.

The Havak’s fit R700 footprints, EXCEPT, the forward end of the action ahead of the recoil lug is longer, which isn’t always relieved sufficiently, and the bolt stop, also not relieved - THIS is the modification the rep was likely mentioning; you don’t modify the action here, you modify the stock/chassis, just the same as modifying a chassis/stock to accept any custom action with a side bolt stop/release.

The Havak’s use a stainless steel receiver body. The PH1’s used a steel bolt body which was DLC coated, the new ones are aluminum bolt bodies which are cerakoted (ala the Element). The Element is the same receiver, but made from all aluminum. To pull this off, they use a steel breach block into which the bolt head/lugs locks (think AR-15, but instead of fixing the barrel extension to the barrel, those lugs are cut into a steel bushing which just slides into the front of the receiver body.

My Havak started life as a PH1, but when I sent it in for the cock-on-open bolt retrofit, they replaced my action entirely, which is technically now a PH2 design. It dropped into the same stock inlet when it came back. But admittedly, the new bolt feels like shit compared to the old bolt, and I’m planning to ship it down the river soon, after 5 years of using the original Havak action for PRS competition.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Why did you send it in?
Was there an issue or did you think it would be an upgrade?
Thanks

 

[GBMaryland]

@Baron23

If I recall, there’s some sort of update for the action…

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Just curious if a guy should pass on a ph1.

 

[Baron23]

@Baron23

If I recall, there’s some sort of update for the action…

I have a gun built on a Havak action. I’m at around 2,500 rounds on it and I’ve not had any issues with it aside from my observation that it likes the bolt to be run with some authority.

My plan was to wait until this barrel toast before sending it in to Seekins for the updated bolt and some sort of change to the breech plug.

I’ll call them at that time and see if they are still upgrading or they deliver a new action. I don’t see any reason for a new action. This one works just fine.

@Varminterror - what is diff about the new action that you like it less than your old one. I note that my bolt was a bit rough to run for maybe 200 rounds but then it smoothed out. What is your take on this?

 

[Varminterror]

@Baron23 - Seekins is getting a chance to rectify the issue. There was nothing wrong with my original PH1 action, except that it was cock-on-close. I sent it in for the free bolt retrofit and they called to offer to replace the action, simply because it was going to need a new locator pin drilled for the breech block, and I'd have an extra hole in my action (under the rail, but it would be there). Since I had ~10,000 live fire and 40-60,000 dry fire cycles on the action, I thought a replacement sounded like a good idea. But the new one came back with terrible binding, very rough internal finish, an aluminum bolt body with cerakote instead of a steel body with DLC, and it chewed itself apart within 500 rounds live fire, ~2000-3000 cycles dry fire. The bolt binds like crazy, and feeding is absolutely terrible, even after tuning magazines. I had more bolt wear on the new bolt finish - complete destruction of the cerakote - within that cycle count, which was WORSE finish wear than my previous bolt at ~50-70k cycles.

But Glen will make it right, so all I'm out is the time waiting for them to do so.

 

[Varminterror]

Just curious if a guy should pass on a ph1.

If you can find one of the original PH1's with the McMillan stocks, I highly recommend them as a lightweight, precision hunting rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

@Baron23

If I recall, there’s some sort of update for the action…

Glen came out with a new bolt design which converts the action to cock-on-open like other actions on the market, and upgrades to tool-less bolt takedown. They offer a free replacement for the original models with the cock-on-close action.

 

[Baron23]

@Baron23 - Seekins is getting a chance to rectify the issue. There was nothing wrong with my original PH1 action, except that it was cock-on-close. I sent it in for the free bolt retrofit and they called to offer to replace the action, simply because it was going to need a new locator pin drilled for the breech block, and I'd have an extra hole in my action (under the rail, but it would be there). Since I had ~10,000 live fire and 40-60,000 dry fire cycles on the action, I thought a replacement sounded like a good idea. But the new one came back with terrible binding, very rough internal finish, an aluminum bolt body with cerakote instead of a steel body with DLC, and it chewed itself apart within 500 rounds live fire, ~2000-3000 cycles dry fire. The bolt binds like crazy, and feeding is absolutely terrible, even after tuning magazines. I had more bolt wear on the new bolt finish - complete destruction of the cerakote - within that cycle count, which was WORSE finish wear than my previous bolt at ~50-70k cycles.

But Glen will make it right, so all I'm out is the time waiting for them to do so.

Ah, how are they going to make it right? Does the "new" PH2 Havak actions all have aluminum bolt bodies and cerakote? I would def not accept that. Are they going to send you an OG Havak?

And the breech plug....I never did understand why/what they were going to do with this. My understanding is that this is the blow out port in case of over pressure case rupture, right? I have had my rail off once to clean and re-locktite/re-torque (found a loose screw so figured good time to clean it) but never saw a breech plug under there...well, because I didn't know to look.

Do you know why they relocated it? And is the original one also under the scope rail?

That PH2 action they sent you sounds horrible. Are all PH2 rifles equiped with that action...do you know?

Thanks

 

[Varminterror]

And the breech plug....I never did understand why/what they were going to do with this. My understanding is that this is the blow out port in case of over pressure case rupture, right?

No, the breech block is their steel insert in the front of the action into which the bolt lugs lock. You can see in my photo of my original action above, there is the action, the bolt, and the breech block. Think of the Havak design much like an AR-15, such the action doesn’t necessarily have to take the force of the firing, but rather the lugs bear against the steel barrel extension - in this case, the breech block. That’s how Seekins gets away with having the aluminum action on the Element - the bolt lugs lock into the steel breech block.

Glen replaced my action once on a whim, I expect if they can’t get the new action running, he’ll replace it too with one that does. I’ve texted him back and forth a lot since I’ve had my Havak, he’s taken great care of me, so I’m not terribly concerned that he has to rework this one.

The PH2 action is the same as the PH1’s. They use a different locator pin location than the original design, and they changed bolt design and coating. The bolt design change is a big upgrade. The coating SHOULD hold up. I’m guessing I just didn’t get a good cure on my cerakote batch for my bolt. I got a lemon - not all PH2’s or Havaks have the issue mine had.

 

[Baron23]

No, the breech block is their steel insert in the front of the action into which the bolt lugs lock. You can see in my photo of my original action above, there is the action, the bolt, and the breech block. Think of the Havak design much like an AR-15, such the action doesn’t necessarily have to take the force of the firing, but rather the lugs bear against the steel barrel extension - in this case, the breech block. That’s how Seekins gets away with having the aluminum action on the Element - the bolt lugs lock into the steel breech block.

Glen replaced my action once on a whim, I expect if they can’t get the new action running, he’ll replace it too with one that does. I’ve texted him back and forth a lot since I’ve had my Havak, he’s taken great care of me, so I’m not terribly concerned that he has to rework this one.

The PH2 action is the same as the PH1’s. They use a different locator pin location than the original design, and they changed bolt design and coating. The bolt design change is a big upgrade. The coating SHOULD hold up. I’m guessing I just didn’t get a good cure on my cerakote batch for my bolt. I got a lemon - not all PH2’s or Havaks have the issue mine had.

Ah....now I get it. And yes, I did know about that...er, barrel extension sort of thing but didn't know that's what they were talking about. And I guess that breech block is to allow reasonably easy machining of the double row of action lugs???...maybe?

So, if I send my 5 y.o. OG Havak action down to them for a new bolt and breech block (forget for the moment about new action), will the bolt body be aluminum (not my fav) and the coating will be cerakote (also prefer the nitride on the OG bolt)? Do you know?

Personally, I don't care about another hole under the rail...there are already thru holes there for the scope rail screws.

TBH, I don't really have a problem with my current action....seems to work fine for me.

And everything I've heard about Seekins says that you are right and they will make you whole on that new action.

Thanks

 

[Varminterror]

And I guess that breech block is to allow reasonably easy machining of the double row of action lugs???...maybe?

No. It's how they get away with using the same design for all of their actions, even the Aluminum bodied Slam and Element. The bolt lugs are locked into steel, not aluminum. So they get a light weight action but with the proofing strength of steel. Bat Machine is using a similar design in their new Vampire actions.

if I send my 5 y.o. OG Havak action down to them for a new bolt and breech block (forget for the moment about new action), will the bolt body be aluminum (not my fav) and the coating will be cerakote (also prefer the nitride on the OG bolt)? Do you know?

Dunno - I sent mine a year ago the first time and they had to pull an action from the line so I would get back a stainless action instead of a painted version. If you have a Nitride coated steel bolt, you don't have an original PH1, it would be a later model, as the original production runs were DLC coated, not nitrided. I don't think any of the new cock-on-open bolts have steel bolt bodies. Given a slick coating, I don't think that makes much difference.

TBH, I don't really have a problem with my current action....seems to work fine for me.

In your shoes, then, I wouldn't send the rifle in for the new bolt. Why would you? I use mine for PRS competition, and the cock-on-close feel meant I was pushing my rifle off of target after acquiring and meant I couldn't really tell if I was getting some kind of ammo misfitment (shoulder crush, debris, bullet jamming lands, etc) when I was closing. Maybe most importantly, the original Cock-on-close action couldn't work with TriggerTech Diamond triggers (I'm 99% certain the fact I messaged Glen about those not working together is why they developed the Cock-on-open design), and the Timney 510 they came with sucks balls... so I had a Jewel HVR in mine, which was kinda ok when I could a new one if it ever went down, but now I'm down to my last 2 Jewels, and no more are being made... So I was glad to be able to drop a Diamond into the new action when it came back... but that coating failure and binding just ain't working, so back it went. But for you, if it works as it is with cock-on-close, then party on (they probably aren't making those bolt heads any more, so maybe you're stuck not being able to change to a new cartridge family if you wanted?)

 

[Baron23]

No. It's how they get away with using the same design for all of their actions, even the Aluminum bodied Slam and Element. The bolt lugs are locked into steel, not aluminum. So they get a light weight action but with the proofing strength of steel.

Thank you...that's a bit surprising to me as my OG Havak is steel (as you know) and I sort of...kind of...remember it being the only action offered at that time....no aluminum action. I guess that Seekins was smart and looking ahead if this block was to accommodate future aluminum actions.

as the original production runs were DLC coated, not nitrided.

Eh, it might well be DLC....not sure I could tell the difference on a bolt. My bolt is black and its not a coating, its a treatment so...DLC??

I don't think any of the new cock-on-open bolts have steel bolt bodies. Given a slick coating, I don't think that makes much difference.

I'll just ask them when the time comes...as I said, I have no problem with my action as is and I do see a difference between steel and aluminum in terms of my preference. And slick coating...Cerakote on a bolt being "slick"??

In your shoes, then, I wouldn't send the rifle in for the new bolt. Why would you?

Yep, I agree.

Maybe most importantly, the original Cock-on-close action couldn't work with TriggerTech Diamond triggers (I'm 99% certain the fact I messaged Glen about those not working together is why they developed the Cock-on-open design)

Ah, don't know about Timney. As I mentioned, I have a custom built on a Havak action, not a PHx rifle. And, I've been running a TT Diamond in it for 4-5 years now and never had a trigger problem.

Thank you for your informative replies.

Cheers

 

[Varminterror]

Cerakote on a bolt being "slick"??

Cerakote Elite is pretty commonly used inside actions - it's a slick and hard coating, if it's done well.

I've been running a TT Diamond in it for 4-5 years now and never had a trigger problem.

I should have thought of that - you said it was built from a bare action, which means it would be from the later production of the original PH1's - these weren't available as a bare action for a long time after the OG PH1's like mine came out (I was trying to build another as a pistol for about a year before they finally became available). I can't say what they changed, if anything, but some later PH1 rifles did ok with Diamonds, some didn't. I first chatted with Glen about this issue on April 30, 2020 and he reached out to TT to explore this, and all signs pointed to that cock-on-close design. I checked in again on it in Jan 2021 and Glen confirmed they were developing the cock-on-open conversion, which they announced that spring with the free bolt upgrade. I put a Jewel HVR in mine within a few weeks of using it, but now with the cock-on-open upgrade, I'm using a Diamond... Well, I will be using a Diamond in it again when it gets back... But the fact I can text him on a Saturday afternoon and get direct answers is one reason I keep coming back to that action (that, and my first PH1 action punched WAY above its weight for a $1600 rifle).

 

[Just Macca]

Sorry to necro this thread and divert it somewhat, but does anyone know the individual component weight of the Seekins Element action and the bolt? They must be under 20oz from what I can extrapolate from an estimate of the stock, trigger and DBM being 2lb and the barrel being approximately 2.5lb.

@Varminterror you seem to have some good insight into the action, and the answer is probably of interest to others.