Seekins HAVAK Precision Rifle

[HeavyAssault]

@Wormydog1724 : Looking over most of your shot group pics I have a question. Most of the groups list a "Mean Radius" and "Group Size". Can you explain the difference in the two factors? As above if it's showing a 300+shot group that is still sub-MOA that's some great shooting. Thanks.

 

[OH58DViper]

@Wormydog1724 : Looking over most of your shot group pics I have a question. Most of the groups list a "Mean Radius" and "Group Size". Can you explain the difference in the two factors? As above if it's showing a 300+shot group that is still sub-MOA that's some great shooting. Thanks.

If you were to draw radial lines from the center of the group, add them together, and then divide by the number of rounds that gives you the mean radius. It could also be called the average distance from center.

Generally group size is the farthest center to center spread for the group, this seems to be the industry standard for measuring “MOA” or “group size” for a given rifle and shooter.

Hope that helps - ATTACK

 

[HeavyAssault]

So as pictured above the yellow circle is the "group size" correct?

 

[Wormydog1724]

So as pictured above the yellow circle is the "group size" correct?

Correct. Big yellow circle is the group size, blue rectangle is group area, mean radius is how far the average shot is from the center of the group.

Getting them all small is the goal but the mean radius is also useful to see if the group averages smaller than the group size actually is. For example, You can have a 2” group size with a 1” mean radius meaning all shots are within 2” of each other and all shots are 1” from the center. You can also have a 2” group size with a .5” mean radius, which could be caused by a “flyer”, or two, but most shots fall within .5” of center, which is better. Example pictures attached to this post. Both are 2” groups but one has a smaller mean radius.

I’m going to try to do 300y 5 shot groups from now on, I feel like they’re more telling to my rifle’s true accuracy potential. Example, my 303yard group above, my first three shots were the three closest together. I thought about stopping there and calling that a badass group. But I kept going at the cost of posting an awesome group. My fourth shot was high and my fifth was right. Sure a .28moa 3-shot group at 303y would have been awesome, but a .74moa 5-shot group is more representative of my rifle, in my opinion anyways.

 

[HeavyAssault]

So from what I have learned about MOA. 100yds all shots inside a 1" group size means 1MOA...200yds all shots inside a 2" group size means 2MOA.

For what you are showing the rifle/you are shooting sub-MOA right? Even out to 300+ yds....right?

 

[Dooby]

2" group @ 200 yards is still roughly 1MOA. 4" @ 200 yards would be ~2 MOA

 

[Wormydog1724]

So from what I have learned about MOA. 100yds all shots inside a 1" group size means 1MOA...200yds all shots inside a 2" group size means 2MOA.

For what you are showing the rifle/you are shooting sub-MOA right? Even out to 300+ yds....right?

Yes. At 303y my 5-shot group was 2.34”, which is .74moa, that’s sub-1moa.

A true sub-moa rifle should be sub-moa, regardless of the distance to the target.

 

[bodywerks]

So from what I have learned about MOA. 100yds all shots inside a 1" group size means 1MOA...200yds all shots inside a 2" group size means 2MOA.

For what you are showing the rifle/you are shooting sub-MOA right? Even out to 300+ yds....right?

That would be exactly correct for IPHY. But 1 MOA at 100y is actually slightly more than one inch.
Addditionally, sub MOA is considered the standard for pretty much any rifle intended for any type of precision. It's pretty much expected. The only factory rifle I have ever shot that struggled to print a sub-MOA group, even after trigger work and a bedding job, has been a Ruger American Predator in .308 - averages about 1.5MOA. Not my rifle and not typical of that line of rifles(said owner's bro in-law has the same rifle in 6.5cm that is a sub-moa gun).
Sub 1/2MOA out of a factory 'match/precision' rifle is considered exceptional.
Custom rifles are expected to shoot pretty much bugholes with factory match ammo.

 

[HeavyAssault]

A true sub-moa rifle should be sub-moa, regardless of the distance to the target.

With this you are speaking in "mean radius" results correct? As in all the rounds are within less than 1" of each other.

Thanks for all the replies. Just trying to understand the pics provided as most show their range results.

 

[OH58DViper]

With this you are speaking in "mean radius" results correct? As in all the rounds are within less than 1" of each other.

Thanks for all the replies. Just trying to understand the pics provided as most show their range results.

Sub MOA is in regards to the largest spread not the mean radius. The industry standard is furthest center to center to measure "MOA." If you try to market your rifle as "sub MOA" using mean radius, expect to get blasted by your local internet barracks mathematicians. If you shoot 5 rounds and 4 go into a clover leaf and 1 rd is 1.5 inches away from the rest and this happens with regularity, the argument could be made that your rifle is a 1 and a half minute shooter. If you used mean radius it would look like a sub 1/2 MOA rig. Granted, this isnt really a great analogy as most guns dont shoot great and then have one flier tossed out wide, but crazy shit happens.

Additionally, a sub MOA rig "should" hold that level of accuracy as far out as winds and other ballistic factors will allow. Given a perfect wind call every time, perfect mechanical shooting, and an extreme spread of 0, it will hold it until it goes transonic and possible beyond. my $.02

ATTACK!

 

[Wormydog1724]

With this you are speaking in "mean radius" results correct? As in all the rounds are within less than 1" of each other.

Thanks for all the replies. Just trying to understand the pics provided as most show their range results.

No, that’s not what I meant. Moa is minute of angle, stop thinking in inches. It is it’s own unit of measurement.

Again, mean radius is the average radius of the rounds to the center of the group. It means nothing to most people and most people don’t even understand it enough to get useful information from it and they don’t use it correctly. When someone says “my rifle shoots moa (or sub-moa)” they are talking about the extreme spread of the group, center-to-center of the bullets. The mean radius factor seems to be confusing you, my suggestion is to ignore it.

 

[Wormydog1724]

 

[EmanP]

I took my Havak out yesterday for the second time and I don't know what's going on with it. First time I took it out I put 40rds through it but didn't bring the chrono. This time I brought the chrono and WTF. 49 rounds total through it now.

6.5PRC in a Bravo shooting Hornady 147gr ELD-M using Magnetospeed V3 in a Wiser Precision setup. 75 degrees, 3 rounds per group, 3 groups, 10 min or so between strings to let the barrel cool. Every successive round fired was slower than the last. Started at 2900 fps for shot 1 and ended at 2800 fps for shot 9. I checked the Magnetospeed after every string to make sure it was still ok and not lose or something. Groups had vertical stringing inline with the chrono results and over an inch. I shot the Havak right after my AI where I got all rounds inside each other.

I don't know what the hell is going on.

 

[Dooby]

That is odd. Someone im this thread had a loose barrel...i doubt thats the issue but would check just in case. Do you have a brake or suppressor on your Havak Bravo?

 

[EmanP]

It's got a Heathen brake and It is tight on there. I was checking everything wondering what was going on.

 

[Dooby]

@EmanP Did you do a quick clean prior to shooting? I would check the chamber, bore and brake. see if there's any obstructions. Possibly try a diff lot of ammo.

I have 2 separate lots of factory 147gr, and after my barrel sped up, the slow lot avged ~2900fps, and the faster lot avg ~2947fps. Slow lot started out @ ~2828fps. I've got about 300rnds through mine, mostly reloads.

 

[Eurodriver]

I don’t really care about SDs for round counts under 30, but I was impressed. This gun is a laser beam.

 

[Dooby]

Some reload and factory data

RL23 @ 53.0gr (+0.6gr over recommended from Hornady manual)
ADG Brass
BR2 Primers
147 ELD-M
LabRadar
~85*F-91*F
DA @ ~4500-5000ft

53.0gr:

Stats - Average	2865.18
Stats - Highest	2867.7
Stats - Lowest	2862.24
Stats - Ext. Spread	5.46
Stats - Std. Dev	2.02
Shot ID	V0
1	2865
2	2865
3	2862
4	2866
5	2868

53.0gr:

Stats - Average	2865.92
Stats - Highest	2873.49
Stats - Lowest	2858.7
Stats - Ext. Spread	14.78
Stats - Std. Dev	4.21
Shot ID	V0
1	2863
2	2865
3	2868
4	2867
5	2859
6	2873
7	2863
8	2868
9	2863
10	2869

Velocity is disappointing, i really wanted to get to 2900fps minimum. Hoping for 2950-3000fps. I haven't tried Hornady brass but this ADG brass is consistent. Avg 2866fps. Reloder 23 seems to be very temperature stable however ES was only 15*F. Velocities above are @ ~85*F-91*F. I'm getting the same avg velocity @ ~75*F


Factory Velocities:
Slow Lot @ ~84*F:

Stats - Average	2904.63
Stats - Highest	2935.91
Stats - Lowest	2886.79
Stats - Ext. Spread	49.12
Stats - Std. Dev	17.65
Shot ID	V0
1	2906
2	2887
3	2890
4	2890
5	2936
6	2906
7	2890
8	2894
9	2924
10	2924

Fast Lot @ ~84*F:

Stats - Average	2942.74
Stats - Highest	2958.79
Stats - Lowest	2915.65
Stats - Ext. Spread	43.14
Stats - Std. Dev	14.45
Shot ID	V0
1	2957
2	2953
3	2927
4	2959
5	2946
6	2948
7	2928
8	2916
9	2952
10	2942

Fast Lot @ ~91*F:

Stats - Average	2947.55
Stats - Highest	2961.42
Stats - Lowest	2928.15
Stats - Ext. Spread	33.27
Stats - Std. Dev	13.73
Shot ID	V0
1	2947
2	2942
3	2961
4	2928
5	2960

I was gonna try H1000, but was able to buy some RL26. These were shot at steel between 314M and 375M, ball park groups looks like <3" at both distance (reloads).

 

[Wormydog1724]

 

[wind gypsy]

Alarka, what issue did your gunsmith identify with your 300 WM? I have a Havak in 300 WM and can't get anything less than 1.2 MOA. Tried ELD-X and Bergers over H1000 powder at different depths and charges with no luck. I'm pretty sure it's not living up to the accuracy potential it should have.

I haven't had time to mess with mine much. It's on the back burner because I don't intend to hunt elk with a rifle this year. That said, they did send me a basically new 300 WM PH1. They had test targets of it shooting Federal GMM 190s well, but that doesn't do me any good with an elk rifle. Berger factory 215's and precision hunter 200s showed mediocre accuracy, similar to what you are experiencing.

I loaded up a number of rounds with h1000 and berger 215s this winter and had a couple hopeful groups at around 76.5 and 77.4 grains H1000. Upon looking to validate the higher charge shot mediocre and the lower charge shot pretty decent. Still not getting the warm and fuzzies but i'll try the lower charge again - it was around 2900 FPS.

 

[Dooby]

I haven't had time to mess with mine much. It's on the back burner because I don't intend to hunt elk with a rifle this year. That said, they did send me a basically new 300 WM PH1. They had test targets of it shooting Federal GMM 190s well, but that doesn't do me any good with an elk rifle. Berger factory 215's and precision hunter 200s showed mediocre accuracy, similar to what you are experiencing.

I loaded up a number of rounds with h1000 and berger 215s this winter and had a couple hopeful groups at around 76.5 and 77.4 grains H1000. Upon looking to validate the higher charge shot mediocre and the lower charge shot pretty decent. Still not getting the warm and fuzzies but i'll try the lower charge again - it was around 2900 FPS.

didn't your workorder mention a loose muzzle brake? Was that possibly the accuracy issue? But looking through it, looks like the changed the whole rifle...new action?

 

[wind gypsy]

didn't your workorder mention a loose muzzle brake? Was that possibly the accuracy issue? But looking through it, looks like the changed the whole rifle...new action?

Yes, new basically everything. They might have salvaged the bottom metal and magazine. The work order did mention a loose muzzle brake as a possible accuracy detractor. Keep in mind, it was a new barrel and they installed the brake..

They were great about asking what is acceptable to me and I tried to set reasonable expectations but a big driver was it being capable with bullets I want to use (212 ELDx or 215 berger).

 

[BigRed308]

So what kind of accuracy are you guys seeing? I have a chance to buy one for $1,500 or so. Also where is the PH1 stocks coming from? Not seeing those online at Seekins.

Also, is the only difference between the Bravo and Ph1 the stock?

 

[264win]

$1500 is a good price. I would buy it
Ph1 stock is a Seekins product
Bravo has a heavier contour non fluted barrel, different mag system

 

[BigRed308]

$1500 for a bravo $1600 for a ph1. What kind of accuracy could I expect?

 

[charliehorse27]

I haven't had time to mess with mine much. It's on the back burner because I don't intend to hunt elk with a rifle this year. That said, they did send me a basically new 300 WM PH1. They had test targets of it shooting Federal GMM 190s well, but that doesn't do me any good with an elk rifle. Berger factory 215's and precision hunter 200s showed mediocre accuracy, similar to what you are experiencing.

I loaded up a number of rounds with h1000 and berger 215s this winter and had a couple hopeful groups at around 76.5 and 77.4 grains H1000. Upon looking to validate the higher charge shot mediocre and the lower charge shot pretty decent. Still not getting the warm and fuzzies but i'll try the lower charge again - it was around 2900 FPS.

Thanks for the info. I reached out to Seekins customer service about the accuracy issues I was having and they said they don't have any recommendations with handload recipes, but they use factory match grade ammo and try that. So I bought a box of the factory-loaded Berger 215 Hybrid Target loads, and they shot decent -- both 5 shot groups were .75" center-to-center. I'm still not totally thrilled though, because if using the pinnacle of factory match grade ammo produces groups only .75", I don't know that I can do any better with handholds. I could probably achieve the same accuracy had I bought a factory Sako.

What seating depth have you been finding to work OK for you?

 

[264win]

My buddy had good results with the Berger 215s loaded 5 thou off the lands. Fed 215 match primers and H1000.

Imho getting consistent 3/4 moa 5 shot groups out of a light hunting rifle with factory ammo is pretty good.
If you think about how that carries down range, 3” group @ 400. 6” group @ 800

 

[Gobears16]

$1500 for a bravo $1600 for a ph1. What kind of accuracy could I expect?

I have a 6mm creed and I shot a 5 shot group at .6 with factory Barnes LRX. My hand loads Berger VLD 105 with h4350 have all been .5 MOA. I honestly am thinking of just buying factory ammo and not wasting time hand loading when they shoot just as good.... I’d jump all over that deal.

 

[BigRed308]

I have a 6mm creed and I shot a 5 shot group at .6 with factory Barnes LRX. My hand loads Berger VLD 105 with h4350 have all been .5 MOA. I honestly am thinking of just buying factory ammo and not wasting time hand loading when they shoot just as good.... I’d jump all over that deal.

My issue now is picking which one. I’d probably scrap the stock and sell it on here but I’m definitely thinking 6.5 creed

 

[Gobears16]

My issue now is picking which one. I’d probably scrap the stock and sell it on here but I’m definitely thinking 6.5 creed

I have the first gen ph1 stock which I think was a game scout McMillan. From the reports ive heard the new stock is very similar and no negative reviews. I’d shoot it for a few weeks before ditching it.

 

[EmanP]

Anyone want to trade their Gen 1 McMillan game scout for the newer Seekins stock?

 

[Gobears16]

I remember reading somewhere in this thread but can’t find where in the 20+ pages about somebody making an aftermarket bottle handle/knob. Does anybody have a link or could shed light on this. Maybe I’m thinking of a different thread.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thanks for the info. I reached out to Seekins customer service about the accuracy issues I was having and they said they don't have any recommendations with handload recipes, but they use factory match grade ammo and try that. So I bought a box of the factory-loaded Berger 215 Hybrid Target loads, and they shot decent -- both 5 shot groups were .75" center-to-center. I'm still not totally thrilled though, because if using the pinnacle of factory match grade ammo produces groups only .75", I don't know that I can do any better with handholds. I could probably achieve the same accuracy had I bought a factory Sako.

What seating depth have you been finding to work OK for you?

They use Federal GMM 190 SMK's to accuracy test when I talked with them. They sent proof targets with more than satisfactory groups from that ammo but I have no interest in shooting 190 SMKs. A gunsmith who was building a different rifle for me said he typically has luck 0.050" off lands with 215's in WM's. That's what I've been using and have had a little luck with, hopefully get it out again this weekend. Have a couple other rifles that are taking load dev precedence to this one right now.

 

[Alarka]

I remember reading somewhere in this thread but can’t find where in the 20+ pages about somebody making an aftermarket bottle handle/knob. Does anybody have a link or could shed light on this. Maybe I’m thinking of a different thread.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/members/mississippi327.125890/

 

[bluepythons]

I received an extension and knob from Mississippi and was really impressed. The length was perfect for clearing the scope and was a nice enhancement. I also ended up making another knob as I got a hobby lathe but his work was great. Price was very reasonable as well.

 

[wind gypsy]

They use Federal GMM 190 SMK's to accuracy test when I talked with them. They sent proof targets with more than satisfactory groups from that ammo but I have no interest in shooting 190 SMKs. A gunsmith who was building a different rifle for me said he typically has luck 0.050" off lands with 215's in WM's. That's what I've been using and have had a little luck with, hopefully get it out again this weekend. Have a couple other rifles that are taking load dev precedence to this one right now.

Happy to report that the 300 WM was shooting bug holes with the same 215 berger load this weekend. Velocities weren't as tight as I'd like but I can work on that.

215 Berger, 215M primer, 76.6 H1000, Norma brass, 0.050" jump.

While I can't say I'd recommend a PH1 in 300 WM to others based on my experience and other reports I've read, it is a really easy rifle to get behind compared to the other hunting rifles I was shooting at the range. Bolt has gotten slick and is a great combination of slick without being sloppy. Shell extraction/ejection is great, no concerns with banging off the windage turret but you do have to be careful to avoid having dinged case necks after it tosses them! Mag feeding has been slick.

 

[bodywerks]

Yes. At 303y my 5-shot group was 2.34”, which is .74moa, that’s sub-1moa.

A true sub-moa rifle should be sub-moa, regardless of the distance to the target.

You must be assuming that the shooter can shoot, and that the rounds used are in the low single digit ES numbers, correct? Because you can have a rifle on a brick shithouse rest where it simply cannot move. Then you can send 5 rounds through paper and easily print a sub moa group at 100. Then dial up to 1k and send 5 more and print a 20" plus group, and it could be wind variables or ES issues in the ammo. Heck, a 10mph cross wind on shot one that dies on shot 2 and is not accounted for will kill your sub moa hopes in a hurry! That would be a 50" miss. And If mv dips by a mere 20fps it'll also hit 5-6" low.

 

[Wormydog1724]

You must be assuming that the shooter can shoot, and that the rounds used are in the low single digit ES numbers, correct? Because at, say, 1,000 yards you can have a rifle on a brick shithouse rest where it simply cannot move. Then you can send 5 rounds through paper and easily print a sub moa group. Then dial up to 1k and send 5 more and print a 20" plus group, and it could be wind variables or ES issues in the ammo. Heck, a 10mph cross wind on shot one that dies on shot 2 and is not accounted for will kill your sub moa hopes in a hurry! That would be a 50" miss. And If mv dips by a mere 20fps it'll also hit 5-6" low.

Those are all external variables affecting the bullet. I'm assuming nothing beyond the rifle and only talking in regards to the rifle's capability itself.

 

[BrentlyWhite]

I am going to pull the trigger on a 6.5 PRC. I was quoted a 3-4 month wait time. I was looking at the CA Ridgeline and Fierce Fury. I was able to handle all three. All three where excellent rifles. I am not convinced on the extra price of a carbon barrel. so that took the CA on the plate. The Fierce was the best to close as it doesn't clock on close. It wasn't as beefy in the action as I thought it would be. I am sure any of them will work well and shoot equally well. This will be a hunting rifle not a rifle to sit on the bench and shoot strings. I am looking at either the Leupy V5, Nightforce SHV or Vortex PST for the scope. I just ordered my Quick Load Update disk. Those with QL the update disk is current through May 2019.

 

[TITUSROCK]

I am going to pull the trigger on a 6.5 PRC. I was quoted a 3-4 month wait time.

Did you inquire about getting a rifle through the custom shop? I have seen posts on FB and IG that the custom shop only had a 2 week lead time. Not sure if it was because they had quite an inventory of actions, stocks and barrels built up or what but it may be worth looking into.

 

[BrentlyWhite]

Did you inquire about getting a rifle through the custom shop? I have seen posts on FB and IG that the custom shop only had a 2 week lead time. Not sure if it was because they had quite an inventory of actions, stocks and barrels built up or what but it may be worth looking into.

I will have to call them then. Thanks.

 

[Wormydog1724]

 

[clark33]

I know it’s only a 3 shot group but I was limited on ammo and wanted to stretch it out.

3 shots at 200yds- 6mm CM 108 Hornady Match. Havak PH1

 

[Greg0326]

I have a 6.5 PRC pro hunter model. Accuracy has been decent, but by no means bragging worthy. It will normally print 2 into nearly the same hole and then throw the 3rd an inch or so. If I go for a 5 shot group, it gets even worse. Has anyone had a similar issue?

 

[Gobears16]

I have a 6.5 PRC pro hunter model. Accuracy has been decent, but by no means bragging worthy. It will normally print 2 into nearly the same hole and then throw the 3rd an inch or so. If I go for a 5 shot group, it gets even worse. Has anyone had a similar issue?

I would check action and scope screws. Assuming the scope is reliable.... my PH1 6mm has been great with everything from factory to handloads. Maybe some guys with the PRC will chime in. I’ve gotta believe it is a loose screw somewhere.

 

[Greg0326]

I would check action and scope screws. Assuming the scope is reliable.... my PH1 6mm has been great with everything from factory to handloads. Maybe some guys with the PRC will chime in. I’ve gotta believe it is a loose screw somewhere.

I’ve tightened everything down on it. That was my first thought. I was shooting my 7-35 ATACR at the time. Next I thought it was my scope, so I put my 5-25 ATACR on it with the same results. Out of ideas. This was with factory ammo

 

[Gobears16]

I’ve tightened everything down on it. That was my first thought. I was shooting my 7-35 ATACR at the time. Next I thought it was my scope, so I put my 5-25 ATACR on it with the same results. Out of ideas. This was with factory ammo

Well you might as well just sell it to me then, it’s garbage... jk but seriously if I checked ever screw to spec then I’d get a buddy who shoots well to see if maybe you don’t have a good check weld or something like that.... if all else fails call Seekins. It should not throw fliers all the time

 

[EmanP]

I haven't had the greatest luck with my PRC either. With factory ELD-M 147's it averages .75". A few 1" groups and a few .5" groups. I move to my AI in 6.5 and one hole groups. I've tried the factory stock but there's no cheek rest and the grip doesn't fit me, moved to a Bravo but I don't know it handles SA magnum type rounds very well and may be flexxing. I've shot 40 rds worth of 3rd groups and it's not been very impressive. I've got a 5-25 ATACR and everything is torqued perfectly. And I too get fliers.

 

[Greg0326]

I haven't had the greatest luck with my PRC either. With factory ELD-M 147's it averages .75". A few 1" groups and a few .5" groups. I move to my AI in 6.5 and one hole groups. I've tried the factory stock but there's no cheek rest and the grip doesn't fit me, moved to a Bravo but I don't know it handles SA magnum type rounds very well and may be flexxing. I've shot 40 rds worth of 3rd groups and it's not been very impressive. I've got a 5-25 ATACR and everything is torqued perfectly. And I too get fliers.

Interesting. I guess I’m not the anomaly. I’ve got a proof barrel on order and will chamber that as a replacement. My thought being that the barrel just can’t handle any swing in temperature and the third round might be enough to swing that.

 

[Dooby]

I have similar issues with my Havak Bravo. Factory 147 ELD-M is NOT accurate. Random flyers. With RL26 I seem to have a flyer every 5th shot. But need to shoot it some more.

I find RL23 is the most consistent, but velocity is low. Been getting pressure signs (Ejector marks). I may try to trim the neck down more and see if this is the cause of my issue. currently have it @ 2.020-2.023". Spec is 2.015"-2.030".

Kinda disappointed in accuracy but could be just me.