Self taught or formally trained?

[MJY65]

I'm trying to get back into precision rifle shooting after a break of a few years and would appreciate advice on the best way to proceed. I'm 47 and have been shooting since I was 5. Obviously, 42 years of shooting can add up to a lot of rounds downrange, but I'm not sure it didn't lead to an equally large number of bad habits. Prior to my recent 3 year break from shooting, I focused mainly on hunting style rifles, but dabbled in a bit of long range target shooting with marginal equipment. The results were never great, and I blamed the equipment.

To get back into it, I've ordered a JP LRP-07 and a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. No more excuses with the equipment. Now to do my part. I'm obviously too old to get military training. For a guy like me, can the techniques be learned adequately by reading, watching videos, etc, or does attending a formal course raise the skills to a significantly higher level?

I'm curious as to how many here have military sniper training vs formal classes vs self taught.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

honestly...

it takes a combination of it all...

I was trained in the military and LE, but it was fairly broad natured, so I needed specific training.

So I went to some civilian classes, they're great, but time is generally short and people want the Most bang for their buck, so civilian classes tend to be very focused and are very instructor specific.

I learned a lot on my own, because you simply can'y learn w/o experiencing certain things, but I couldn't have ever learned most of what I did without the formal instruction I'd received.

 

[MJY65]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Any suggestions for good civilian courses for a background like mine? Obviously, I don't want to get thrown in with a bunch of experienced snipers whose skills are way beyond mine. I want to learn to shoot, but I'm not a wannabe.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

I do not believe you need formal training. Use the well of your experiences to draw from. Our rifle club has about 400 members and holds 1,000 yard benchrest matches that host people from all over the country. Most of those individuals are self taught with some direction given here and there. If you enjoy shooting and want to further your skill the best advice is to join a long range rifle club (if not already) and practice, practice, practice. There is no substitute for it.

Personally, my brother and I were trained over the course of our youth - from 12 to 17 years old by our Dad, a former marksman in the army. I started with a .17 cal pellet rifle with peep sights and learned to hit a road sign with it from on top of our house (in the country) from further away than you'd believe.

Sounds like you have the equipment to do it! I am a big fan of JP's. I own a CTR-02 that shoots light ou

 

[MJY65]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Jayman,

I see that you are from Central MN. So am I. Where do you go to shoot long range?

 

[Graham]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">join a long range rifle club (if not already) and practice, practice, practice. There is no substitute for it.</div></div>Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect.

I agree with Ian: A good basic course will teach you how to properly practice on your own.

 

[Enough Said]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Spend the money and take the time to get yourself some formal training from those who have formal training.

There are many class offerings. Start basic and work your way to the top.

 

[MJY65]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many class offerings. Start basic and work your way to the top. </div></div>

Any instructors/courses that you would recommend? I would prefer individual instruction, even if it comes at a higher price. I've been to a few pistol courses that took 3 days to accomplish 1 day of learning. I didn't appreciate paying to stand around while the instructors worked with other students.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

agree with the combination of self taught and professional training.

the problem with self training is that if you develop a bad habit, sometimes it goes unnoticed or any advice given to correct / improve upon the habit.

unfortunately if you ask 5 proffesional trainers on some smaller techniques, you'll get 5 different answers back. proffesional training are like hunting guides, do your homework and get references before you plop down $ to attend a course.

the videos, books, etc. are VERY valuable, but only if you practice what you are seeing / reading.

an accurate / consistant .22lr and decent repeatable glass w/ ammo it likes is a great economical and convienant tool to "pre-test" those "ah haw" moments before transfering over to the centerfire.

BTW some of the best marksmanship training around is found here on Sniper's hide and the associated training threads, marksmanship threads, and SH you tube videos.

guess that's why i spend too much G'damn time here.

take what you've learned from those sources, give it an honest try, if the results are good, move on to the next lesson.


http://www.youtube.com/user/SHLowlight?feature=watch

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear....319.1085.1j0j3j1.5.0...0.0...1ac.tJrzzHai_xU

^ paste into browser, keep clicking next for a whole bunch of stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hidetraining?feature=results_main

good post here too http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2229440&page=1

also a video camera / still camera with a timer can help out with the body positioning, gripping, follow through, etc. to match the lessons found. not much escapes the unbiased eye of the camera.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Self taught or formally trained</div></div>

How about Formally Trained and Self Practice.

No formal school is going to make a shooter out of you. What they do do, is give you the tools you need for good solid practice so you can be a shooter.

Not many of us learned to read on our own, some one taught us to read and by reading ourselves improved on our reading skills.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Force Multiplier is going to host an excellent class in November on the Fundamentals of long range precision shooting. It will be a class that you will learn all the mechanical requirements. If you take the class and practice these skills afterwards you will have very good long range skills.

It is by far cheaper and faster, in the long run, to learn the fundamentals in a structured / formal class and practice them at every range session afterwards.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Buy the online training here. It is really cheap for what you get and it will make you a better shooter.

IMO, it is better than any single class you can take for getting started.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

unfortunately if you ask 5 proffesional trainers on some smaller techniques, you'll get 5 different answers back. proffesional training are like hunting guides, do your homework and get references before you plop down $ to attend a course.
</div></div>

And that's the problem. Personally I believe the OP can do this without a trainer. Maybe just attend local matches (which there are many during MN summers) and get some ideas. I know many high ranking shooters who have technique that would make the uninformed shutter, yet their scores are consistenly at the top of the list. Shooting is all about finding your zone of comfort - with the gun, yourself, the wind, mirage, etc. Really no different than any other skill. And I am not sure how someone else can tell you what makes you find that zone. No, self discovery works best here. For example, just because someone has a way of holding the rifle in prone doesn't mean that will be effective for you. Contrary to what someone here said, practive really does make perfect in the end, especially if you fail time after time. It's what we call ingrained learning, something Sochiro Honda, founder, commented: "Success is 99% failure."

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MJY65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jayman,

I see that you are from Central MN. So am I. Where do you go to shoot long range? </div></div>

PM sent - we have a hidden gem in our beloved MN that need not be advertised.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

Sign up for the on-line training. It improved my self-trained self tremendously. Then I took a rifles only course for some firsthand focus. Learned even more.

I'll say this, before the online training I was shooting 3/4-1 moa at one and two hundred yards. The training shrunk my groups by 1/4-1/2 moa and more importantly the occasional fliers disappeared. Too soon to tell how much I will improve form the in person training (that was just this week) but my "cold shooter syndrome" seems to have disappeared.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

All,

Adding to some very good advice given, as well as some not so good advice, from my perspective, the problem is the novice shooter does not know he's a novice. He does not know that he does not know. This shooter does not have a clue about what is important to good shooting. He only knows what he has gleaned from others who do not know. Some contributors to this forum are such shooters. These folks reveal their condition when they talk about needing LR training. No doubt, they need training, not in the the LR arena, but rather in basic marksmanship.

In my occupation, I see novice shooters every day. While some are receptive to training, most are not. These shooters are not interested in marksmanship, they are content in their fascination with guns, and shooting their guns at some sort of junk they've set out just a few yards ahead of their bench position.

At any rate, for those who are interested in hitting what they're aiming at, having a teacher, in addition to text, is helpful for a multitude of reasons. For sure, the teacher can hasten progress.

I know the novice shooter as I know myself. I too was once a novice shooter who did not know anything about what was really important to good shooting. I got to the HM LR level in spite of my stubborn attitude. It was only after I was invited to attend a SDM instructors course put on by the USAMU that I became aware of how easy good shooting could be when properly done. I got lucky, most folks don't get the opportunity that I got. As they say you can lead a horse to water, but...

My advice, for both those who think they already know how to do it, and those who clearly know they don't know how to do it, take a basic marksmanship course. Take a course from someone who knows how to teach it in addition to knowing how to do it, that's to say, someone who can shoot, as well as coach.

One more thing, look for a teacher who will show you how to do it rather than tell you how to do it. A teacher who can show you how to do it and get you to do it while in class will help you retain what you have learned.

 

[Graham]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

I used to be a normal guy; now I'm a rockstar.

That's because I used to be stubborn, but now I know everything.

This is due to people like me that I met along the way, who delivered me from ignorance.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">look for a teacher who will show you how to do it rather than tell you how to do it. A teacher who can show you how to do it and get you to do it while in class will help you retain what you have learned. </div></div>Good advice there. That's one reaon I tell people to go to Rifles Only.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

The OP has 40+ years of shooting. My common sense tell me he could teach many of us how to shoot. Contrary to what people here ascertain, shooting is not that diffcult with practice, primarily, and quality of equipment, secondarily.

 

[MacM11]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

It's like playing golf (which I don't). But if I did, I would get proffessional instruction to learn the fundamentals.
It will always revolve around them.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

No Sniper training/qualification, not my area of knowledge.

Originally taught firearms safety, handling, and basic marksmanship in my early teens by elder Brothers.

Formal training in PAL/Boys' Club Smallbore League, and High School DCM Smallbore Rifle Team.

Inducted USMC, trained on M-14, M-1, Basic Marine Infantry Maskmanship.

Later, joined Marine Corps League Detachment Pistol Team. Competed NRA National Match NJ Highpower League, and NJ State Sniper (paper) Comps, 3rd in State 1997.

NRA Certified Handgun, Rifle Instructor.

Competed F Class National Level 2002, Pennsylvania Fullbore/Highpower Leagues until appprox 2008.

Still compete Local SR F-Class.

While it is possible to achieve marksmanship skills on one's own; I consider that somewhat akin to being one's own Physician. It's nearly always better when one collaborates with trained, recognized experts.

Greg

 

[fargo007]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

I'm not saying this just because I own a training company, but if there is a reputable instructor near you, taking a course featuring fundamentals and long range shooting skills will do you way more good than harm.

You would be studied on the gun and running your equipment. A good instructor in this discipline will probably be able to point out issues you didn't even know you had, as well as comment intelligently on the fitment of the platform to you personally.

And beyond that you would be able to ask questions about the technical foundations of ballistics, trajectory, etc.

The group experience you get can be valuable. Watching the instructors diagnose and fix other problems for people is useful to you, as is hearing the questions they come up with and the answers.

The person above who put forward that an instructor should be doing and demonstrating as well as talking is spot on. I would personally rather learn from an instructor who brings a gun than one who brings a lawn chair.

--Fargo007

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

I'm 100% self taught, unless you count all the hours reading here on the hide. In hindsight, I would have saved several thousand rnds of ammo over the years learning if I had someone who could instruct me on proper form, etc. Oh well. It was just a new barrel.

 

[Graham]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP has 40+ years of shooting. My common sense tell me he could teach many of us how to shoot.</div></div>Then why is he asking us?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Contrary to what people here ascertain, shooting is not that diffcult with practice, primarily, and quality of equipment, secondarily. </div></div>Making a firearm discharge is not difficult. But one's skill level with it will depend on who one shoots with or against. It's not hard to develop bad habits when you practice alone. It is hard to improve without being in the company of someone better than you are. That's why I still attend basic courses and shoot matches.

 

[MJY65]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

For those of you that have recommended formal training, any suggestions for a course/instructor that would be best for learning to shoot a gas gun like my new JP? Something within a day's drive of Minneapolis would be ideal to avoid having to put the rifle in checked airline baggage.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP has 40+ years of shooting. My common sense tell me he could teach many of us how to shoot.</div></div>Then why is he asking us?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Contrary to what people here ascertain, shooting is not that diffcult with practice, primarily, and quality of equipment, secondarily. </div></div>Making a firearm discharge is not difficult. But one's skill level with it will depend on who one shoots with or against. It's not hard to develop bad habits when you practice alone. It is hard to improve without being in the company of someone better than you are. That's why I still attend basic courses and shoot matches. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP has 40+ years of shooting. My common sense tell me he could teach many of us how to shoot.</div></div>Then why is he asking us?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Contrary to what people here ascertain, shooting is not that diffcult with practice, primarily, and quality of equipment, secondarily. </div></div>Making a firearm discharge is not difficult. But one's skill level with it will depend on who one shoots with or against. It's not hard to develop bad habits when you practice alone. It is hard to improve without being in the company of someone better than you are. That's why I still attend basic courses and shoot matches. </div></div>

You see it as I do.

 

[Genius.]

Re: Self taught or formally trained?

I'm mostly self tought with shooting presicion.

For carbine and handgun I was trained by my best friend. When he would be home on leave we would spend a few days each time and he would give me the training I needed.

This winter when he got home he was planning on spending extensive time with precision shooting, he was a Scout Sniper.


But, now that isn't going to be happening anymore......

I'm now saving up to enroll in a class.