F T/R Competition Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

[Tower43]

I am getting (back) into LR shooting. I currently have the following:

Colt HBAR Match II Lower (all factory) w/ A2 Style solid buttstock, Colt HBAR Match Upper (M4 Flat top style w/ detachable carrying handle)(again all factory). White Oak Armory SDM 20" SS 5.56 Barrel with Wylde Chamber, M4 Feed Ramps, A2 Flash Hider, F Style FSP (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcar...cat=250&page=2)
I have place the MOE (black) Magpul handguard and have a rail system on the handgaurd allready.

The glass (at least for now) is a Primary Arms 4-16x54 Illuminated MilDot reticle on the base supplied by PA. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...e_p/pa416x.htm

And to top it all off, I have the crappy UTG bipod.

So I am looking for the following (in order):

Bipod Upgrade - I am looking at Harris, but there are so many options, swivel, not swivel, this not that, height? etc.....

Trigger Upgrade - Trying to stay no more that 165$, and is legal for CMP and NRA F Class

Glass Upgrade: I don't want to go too expensive but I am willing to discuss options. I like the current scope but I am sure there are better options out there.

Also, with the current glass, I used a supplied PA mount, but I can't find a reference on MOA; Is there a "ideal" MOA "rise" (extended mounts, 10/20/30MOA etc) for the AR?

Lastly, for the act of hunting and LR Shooting (for Comp) I plan on using 75gr BTHP 5.56mm NATO Hornady Superformance Match Ammunition.
(Ballistics: Muzzle/2920fps; 100yds/+1.3"; 200yds/0.0"; 300yds/-7.3"; 400yds/-21.9"; 500yds/-45.6")

The goal is sub MOA shooting, F Class is 600 yards, and I am looking for a setup I could (in theory) dial up to 800-1,000 yds (I know its reaching, but it can still be done; hell I've shot it iron sights to 600yds)


__________________
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Tower43
Senior Firefigher II/Medic, Bowie FD Co 43
FF II / MD EMT-P / NREMT-Paramedic

CPL/USMC (Ret) - 0311
NRA #183705363
IDPA #A46700
RIA 1911A1 .45ACP MDS Edition
S&W M&P 9mm .40/.357, .45,
S&W M&P 15 w/DD Carbine Rails, BUIS(rear), BAD Lever, PA RDS and PA 5x Magnifier, . (5.56mm)
Mossberg 590
Savage 111 30.06
Colt Custom HBAR PA 4-16x44 mildot scope, MOE HG w/ Bipod

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

I know a thing or two about shooting F-class with an AR-15; I have made High Master at mid-range and reached Sharpshooter at long-range with an AR-15 that I tricked out. I still use it for mid-range F-class because it is such a nice easy rifle to play with. For long range, I have moved on to other things.

There are some advantages to an AR type in prone competition. The first one is the ease with which you can try different components until you settle on the one that works well for you.

The second advantage is a complement of the first one, the ergonomics of the rifle. I find that I shoot a pistol grip better than anything else while prone. I also adjust the LOP longer in prone as opposed to any other position and the AR-15 has aftermarket stocks that work well for that.

The third advantage is that it's a semi-auto. This means that when you shoot it, the case is ejected before it transfers most of its heat to the chamber so the rifle stays cooler. Do be aware the cases that come out are HOT, unlike a case that you extract from a bolt rifle.

We will get to the disadvantages soon enough but let me first point out that setting up the same rifle for CMP, hunting and F-T/R comps simply ensures that you will never, ever be competitive in F-T/R. CMP has limitations in terms of equipment, layout, ammo, trigger pull and so on, that are not compatible with a competitive F-T/R rifle. I would certainly never take my F-T/R AR-15 rifle hunting because I cannot fire it unless it’s on a bipod and it takes everything I have to drag it out of the SUV and bring it to the line. The critters in the field would snicker at me pushing the cart that carries the rifle. And once I finally reached my position, the high magnification scope would preclude shooting at anything inside of 500 yards, simply because I could not find it fast enough with the limited field of view. On the other hand, I would be able to identify any dental work done on the coyote before picking which eye to pop.

The very first thing about shooting in F-class (Open and F-T/R) is specing out the barrel and selecting the bullet that will shine in that barrel. F-Class is NOT sniping or hunting; the requirements are similar in some respects but very different in others, especially with the number of shots and the accuracy requirements. F-Class is similar to Service Rifle comps only when it comes to the 600 yard prone and even then the targets are different with the FCMR-1 having rings that are one quarter the size of the MR-1 targets; this translates to higher accuracy requirements.

In Service Rifle, you rebuild your position for every shot and it really is “slow fire.” The more competitive F-class shooters do not break position and will pump rounds down range as fast as the puller can service the target when conditions are favorable. This is actually where a semi-auto rules under proper conditions. I shot a match with my AR not too long ago, where the rifle did not leave my shoulder. My left hand was holding the stock in the rear bag and my right hand only had to reach for the ammo and insert cartridges in the ejection port and push them into the chamber then go back to the pistol grip and trip the through-the-finger-guard bolt release and pull the trigger. My scorekeeper was doing the writing: 10, 10, X, X, 9 you idjit, X…

So, let’s go through your specs keeping the above in mind. (Warning, strong opinions ahead, read at your own risk.)

The lower is fine. Well except for just a few things. The A2 style buttstock is not really suited for fine scope work, in fact it sucks. Also, I find it is too short for me, and I use the Magpul PRS at full extension. That is not CMP legal. The standard pistol grip is a device invented by Torquemada when he wanted to convince people of certain things. The only grip worse than that is anything with a palm shelf. Of course as soon as you change the grip, it’s not CMP legal. I would suggest you visit David Tubb’s site in search of a better grip for prone shooting.

The CMP legal trigger does not trip below 4.5 pounds of pull. An F-class trigger should trip when you look at it askance. There is only one trigger to use with an AR in F-class and that’s the Geissele Hi-Speed Match, set to minimum, especially on the second stage. That will most assuredly not be CMP legal.

To finish up the lower for F-class, you want to install a bolt release mechanism that you can manipulate with your shooting hand and that’s definitely not CMP legal.

That takes care of the lower, now let’s examine the upper.

The specs on yours are great for a 3-gun rifle or an SDM or even hunting; they fall short for F-class and may give you issues in Service Rifle at the 600 yard prone. You did not mention the twist rate, which is a critical specification for F-class. My guess is that it’s probably 1:7. I prefer something closer to 1:8 for F-T/R with 80 grain bullets. The Wylde chamber is too large and loose for my taste and for maximum accuracy; a .223 match chamber with a long leade is the way to go. The M4 feed ramps are immaterial because I single load from a Bob Sled. I prefer a nice target crown to a flash hider any day. My FSP is minuscule and has no ramp or anything on it. The less junk on the barrel, the better.

For a maximum of 600 yards, your 20 inch barrel length is ok, but it will not do at 1000 yards. Even if you can keep your bullets supersonic at that range, the over pressure required to do that will doom your brass and loosen your fillings and the rifle. A 26 or 28 inch barrel would be much better, again with a tight chamber.

Bipod. For F-class competition, the Harris bipod is one step above a pair of chopsticks held together with a rubber band. If you have the lockable swivel one, that’s like adding another rubber band to the chopsticks set-up. Lot of people talk about “loading the bipod,” and I think that’s great for hunting and other similar shooting, just not F-class. You should look at real F-T/R bipods, the kinds that do not fold and that do not hop like the Harris. Granted these bipods are not tactical.

Optics. I had never heard of a Primary Arms scope, so I followed the link. That scope is fine, for something else besides F-class. The MilDot reticle is definitely NOT the way to go in F-class as it covers the X-ring and thus prevents you from holding off on the target. On the other hand that’s the least of your problems as you will not be able to really distinguish the rings on the target, so that’s a plus. I suggest a mid-20X scope as a minimum for F-class, more is better. Also, ¼ MOA settings are too coarse for my tastes but others are ok with them. On the plus side, between the coarse turrets, coarse reticle and low magnification, you may not notice the headache you will get starring through the crappy optics of the scope. Remember, F-class is all about precision and you live starring through the scope and looking at conditions.

Your 30mm tube provides for 80MOA of internal travel so you do not really need a canted rail. I use one on mine because my cheap 36X scope has limited internal travel and I could not get to 1000 yards without it. If you limit yourself to 600yards, you should not ever need a canted rail unless you buy a scope that has less than 40 MOA of internal travel.

Now, let’s talk ammo. Your selection will be fine if you limit yourself to 200 yards, or maybe even 300 yards if it’s not windy. I use nothing but 80grain bullets at all distances, anything less is simply not competitive in F-class; the friggin’ rings are too small. The 75gr Hornady BHTP simply does not have the BC required for F-class and I will add that using factory ammo in such competitions will be “interesting,” and expensive.

Finally, I can tell you that even with my setup and the ammo that I use, I do not shoot sub MOA past 300 yards, and even staying MOA for 20 rounds for record at 300 yards is a challenge, doubly so at 600 yards. You have to drive the rifle, and check conditions all the time, and when you have a string of 10s and Xs going, you will invariably drop one or two just when you think you have it nailed.

I hope the above post will be of some help to you in understanding what lies ahead. Perhaps it will help you chart a course that will eventually lead you to your goals. I am happy to answer any other questions you have but the first thing you need to do is decide if your goal is to be competitive in F-class or if you will be satisfied just being one of those who provides money for the winners.

 

[no1special]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

denys; kind of blunt but accurate. tough to be real competitive at 600 and beyond without that specialty rifle and trick bipod. p.s. 220 rounds in f t/r at 600. expert with a occasional flirt with master.

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

I did provide a warning about strong opinions.

 

[Tower43]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

I always accept blunt... it's actually better imho. Now my main goal for this particular rifle is LR shooting/hunting, SHTF scenario-- more tactical based than what you describe as F Class shooting is. (Though I want to shoot on 600 yd ranges). I do not have space to handload (I live in a firehouse, getting ammo shipped here is bad enough, but trying to load? not a chance) So mostly I am stuck with factory ammo, Plus until I find someone expierenced in hand loading to instruct me, I am not going to trust a book and "try it out" method... firearms are too expensive for that to play with.

When I got this rifle i was more inline of creating a SDM/SAMR Clone... I did 8 years as a Marine infantryman and was a DM, so things I chose are what I am more comfortable with.

Secondly, I DO have a Savage 111FCXP Long Action Bolt Rifle in 30'06, perhaps this is more useful in this arena to spend the money on for shooting F Class. Ultimately I am trying to crank out as much OT as I can so that I am able to purchase my dream LR Rifle, the M40A5. I'm sure with that .308 round and the actual proper set up I will be able to compete even better than I can now.

So, I turn again for you bluntness, and do appreciate it with the following:

I'd like to keep my SDM more a hunting/sport rifle than a serious comp rifle, and have the ability to easily set it into CMP "mode". I may look at buying a lower and having it set with the PRS stock and a better trigger assy for a more competative edge. This in mind, I typically "plink" at the range with either 55gr M193 (though I try to keep that in my 1/8 16" Carbine length gas AR) and 62gr M855 Green Tips. The 75gr was picked up b/c the muzzle velocity will meet MD State law for taking down a deer, and thats the MAIN purpose of said round. I am of course always open to suggestions

The Savage 111FXCP 30'06 is factory, including the scope that came on it (Box set). Shoots great at 150 yds, but I have not tried it out farther than that. What are your thought/opinions on using this weapon for an F Class setup? This I know will not be cheap, but I would love to be as competative as I can with what restrictions I currently have.

THanks again

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

I understand your situation better so now I can better focus my responses. I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.

The first thing you need to do is get yourself to an F-class match with your current AR. I suggest you get this ammunition; it’s Black Hills stuff and it’s loaded with a half-way decent bullet that’s adequate for 300 to maybe 600 yards. You may not be competitive, but you will have fun and you will experience firsthand the challenge of F-class.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339114...point-boat-tail

I will also point out that if you have never loaded your own ammo, it will take a while before you can produce ammo that will be as good as the factory stuff, let alone be good enough to be competitive in F-class. Getting a mentor to help you along is a great idea and it would be even better if that person was a competitor; there is a difference between loading for competition and just regular loading.

It’s a good idea to fall back on what you know and what you are comfortable with, provided it is adequate for the task at hand.

The Savage is in 30-06, and that is not a legal F-T/R caliber, so you would be competing in F-Open with people who have highly precise rifles with monster barrels chambered in exotic calibers that have more letters after their diameter than you have in your signature. Perhaps you could rebarrel your rifle with a long .308 chambered barrel, but I am not sure if that could work in a long action Savage. That should cost you less than $600 installed, I should think. More on that later.

Ok, this is where I get in trouble.

In my opinion your dream LR file, the M40A5, is not an F-class rifle, it’s a sniper rifle. F-Class competition is not the same as sniping; the goals are different and the demands on the equipment are different. At the club, we have all types of people come shoot and in F-T/R we have seen an eclectic bunch over the years. A few years ago we had a couple of USMC Scout Snipers come shoot with us. They had their trusted M40 rifles, the ones they were very comfortable with, and they shot them at 1000 yards. Those two guys could shoot; their equipment was just not up to the task. They came back a few times to try some more, but I have not seen them at the club in over two years now. I kept in touch with one of them by email for a while, giving him some pointers and answering questions. I ran into the other one at a local event and he stiff remembered me by name, while it took me a while to place him (I’m old and he’s smart.) They are two of the very nicest, unassuming people you would ever meet, unlike the vast majority of prima donnas who populate the shooting line most of the time, but they were severely handicapped by their equipment.

In F-class competition, you have to put 15 or 20 (we always do 20) rounds on target, scored individually within a certain timeframe, on a very small target. That places demands on the equipment that are very different from what snipers are trained and equipped for. This is why I come back and say that you need to decide on exactly what your goals are and use your resources wisely.

I will continue on your questions in a little bit, bear with me as I take you through a little story.

When I finally accepted the fact my AR-15, tricked out as it was, was holding me back in LR F-Class, I decided to switch to .308. I did not want to spend a lot of money on that because I wanted to at least get an idea that it was possible for me to do better with a “better” rifle, or in this case a rifle that was better suited to LR F-class. I had an old Ruger M77V in .308 on which I had worked over the years replacing the trigger and the stock with aftermarket offerings. It was a sweet shooting rifle that fit me like a glove. One day I tried it out at 300 yards after reaching Master with my AR and discovered that even a “heavy” barrel varmint rifle is handicapped in F-class. It started well enough and then the barrel started drifting after the first half-dozen shots and each shot was just a surprise in the spotting scope. And that was at 300 yards.

I decided to replace the barrel with something that would be more suitable for the rigors of LR class and leave everything else alone. I got a 32 inch barrel from Broughton for $375 and a local gunsmith, who is also a fellow competitor did some wizardy, chambering and fitting the barrel to my rifle for a few hundred dollars. He did a phenomenal job and that rifle was transformed into a competitive LR F-T/R rifle. I upgraded my .308 loading equipment just like I had upgraded my .223 loading equipment prior and I went to town developing a proper load. I won’t bore you with the details of that except to say that my main parameter was a minimum velocity of Mach 1.25 at the 1000 yard target with my chosen bullet on the coldest day that I would expect to shoot, and work from there to find an accuracy node. As it turns out, my LR load is above Mach 1.3 and it’s not a maximum load thanks to the long 32 inch barrel on the rifle. Achieving something like that with a 24 inch barrel is problematic at best, dangerous at worse.

Originally the M77 had a 6.5-20X44 Nikon scope and I quickly realized that I needed more magnification and I got a $400 Weaver T36 scope instead. This scope was recently and temporarily replaced by a Nightforce NXS 12-42X56 with 1/8 MOA clicks. By temporarily, I mean that I am building my next F-T/R rifle to my exact specifications and the NXS will go on this new rifle while the M77 will get back its T36 and become my backup Match rifle.

As you can see, it is possible to be competitive in LR F-T/R without spending tons of money.

Now back to your questions. Setting up your current SDM rifle for CMP may be somewhat tricky; you will have to find a removable handle that will have enough elevation to take you to 600 yards, or play with the front sight post, something I hated to do in a match. The handles exist, just be cautious.

I am not much of a hunter but I have taken one of my ARs on a few pig hunts and the last time I brought down a 250 pound hog in full gallop at midnight using a 75gr Swift Sirocco II bullet that I had loaded. Unbelievable bullet. I don’t think you can buy it in loaded ammunition, but there are also some 60gr power point thingies from Remington, I think.

Back to the Savage. I’m not quite sure what a 111 FXCP is exactly, but the Savage site shows the 111 FCNS as having a 22 inch hunting barrel. As I explained earlier, you might want to look at getting a new barrel for it, chambered in .308. The bolt face is the same as the 30-06, I’m just not quite clear on that it would take to make up that half inch difference in the action. Would there be a longer barrel shank or something like that? Perhaps someone else here could answer that. If you wanted to explore that option, I would suggest you contact Shilen Rifles (www.shilen.com) and see if they can make you one. They already do Savage replacement barrels. I would suggest something in a 1:11 or 1:12 twist with a finished length of at least 30 inches and a medium Palma or heavier contour with a target crown. Try this ammunition:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339724...point-boat-tail


Another option is to get a Savage F-T/R rifle and put on a decent scope and a good bipod and go to town using the same ammo as above.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

Denys speaks volumes of knowledge on this subject and all I can say is listen to him on the AR.

The one basic rifle that competes in F TR Class and does well is a 26" 308 Sniper Rifle. Hand load for that puppy and you can compete at all levels.

This year in Nationals Chris OZ was in top four with GAP 26" Sniper rifle and he was shooting against some folks who not only had best money could buy but where shooting as good as anyone ever has.

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

At the GAPrecision site, they show the Hospitaller as a long range battle rifle and it has a 24 inch barrel though they say you can get a longer one on special order. It's a superb looking rifle, which you would expect for a price of $4,325 and that's before any optics are included. (Their M40A5 is much cheaper at $4,200.)

For that price, you can get a Savage F-T/R, a Nightforce 12-42X56, any bipod, rear bag and shooting mat you want and have money left over for ammo or components.

 

[chavezz556]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

Or you could could just go shoot it at the match and have fun !

 

[Tower43]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

So an update;

I have sold off the Savage 30.06, and purchased a Remington 700 SPS Tactical. Goals are the same, however I realize I won't be a "top" shot with a sniper setup. A couple questions though, I read somewhere that a muzzle brake is not legal? I was looking to brake/flash suppress the barrel and have a QD silencer for it. (I highly doubt a silencer is any good at 600 yds). For a while I will have the factory stock, until I can afford the Macmillian and the gunsmithy fees to bed it properly.

From there, is it preferred to use a rear bag or the vertical extension on a stock?
Is there a way to add a comb piece to a R700 Stock?
The action is drilled and tapped, but does not have rings on it, is it preferred to get direct drilled rings (if they have them) vs picatinny/weaver mounts to put a scope on. In regards to that, do I have to worry about the MOA travel that is so talked about? For the mean time the scope I am looking at is a 80MOA internal travel mildot 4-16x44. (I know some of you recommend against the mildot, but it is what I've used for years and I am used to)


Again any and all advice is greatly appreciated

Thanks again

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

Correct, muzzle brakes are not allowed in NRA high power competition. As for suppressors, that may depend on the individual range, but I doubt you would be able to use one; this is competition, not snipping.

You cannot have anything attached to the rear stock for elevation adjustment purposes, something like an accushot device is a no-no. A bag or something like that is what you want.

However you want to mount the scope will be fine. I use a canted rail to provide the needed adjstment for LR and also to keep the 1000yard setting close to the center of the scope, because that's where the image is best, but then again, my rifle is dedicated to LR.

Your top end magnification is rather anemic, and with a Mildot reticle you will obliterate the center of the target at LR, but that's your choice.

 

[Tower43]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

Are you suggesting a higher power for top end? or saying 16x is too much? I understand what people say about the different reticles, but again, like you've said, mildot is my choice. I want to have fun in a competition, but have a functional rifle for hunting, UKD ranges etc. Most bases I have found are 20MOA canted one piece picatinny rail. So I will most likely deal with that originally.

Is a flash suppressor (non-brake style) still legal for F-T/R? Of course I always have the option to remove the brake and put the target crown thread protector back on, but I would rather have a gunsmith set a flash suppressor on and leave it to prevent any possible damage in the future.

Then ofcourse is the discussion of Suppressors.... Direct Thread vs QD versions. I do NOT plan (at least at this time) to have any other gun in .308; but I don't know the pro/cons of a dedicated direct thread vs a QD model. I started looking through the Suppressor forum but its such a jumble of stuff it's hard to find what you want. Thanks again

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the GAPrecision site, they show the Hospitaller as a long range battle rifle and it has a 24 inch barrel though they say you can get a longer one on special order. It's a superb looking rifle, which you would expect for a price of $4,325 and that's before any optics are included. (Their M40A5 is much cheaper at $4,200.)

For that price, you can get a Savage F-T/R, a Nightforce 12-42X56, any bipod, rear bag and shooting mat you want and have money left over for ammo or components. </div></div>

FWIW - I recently started shooting F-T/R matches @ 1000 yd with a GAP Hospitaller/NXS 12-42x56 using Applied Ballistics 175 Tactical ammunition, possibly the best "commercial" ammunition made. I'm getting right at 2725 fps (~Mach 1.13 at 1000 yd) with this setup and on a perfectly windless day, it will do very well indeed. However, when the wind comes up (even a little), as Denys stated you're going to be giving up a LOT to competitors with long barrels and zippy 155 gr loads. Although I've done pretty well with this setup given my relative inexperience at 1000 yds, it's simply not optimal for that range. I'm also finding this to be true even at 600 yd midrange matches. It has nothing to do with the quality, durability, or inherent accuracy of the Hospitaller platform, which are all outstanding. My point is that when you're lobbing rounds at the target like mortar shells, the other guy's faster, flatter-shooting setup will have a distinct wind advantage. For these reasons, one of my GAPs is currently at GAP getting a longer pipe and they are also doing a new custom build with even more barrel that will eventually be my primary 1000 yd competition rifle.

 

[Denys]

Re: Setting ip my M16A4 SDM for F Class Competitions

Tower34, in my experience and opinion, a top end in the thirties is pretty much a minimum requiprement for LR. You can make do with a top end in the twenties at up to 600 yards, but higher is better. Remember, you will be holding on the target not adjusting the scope for every shot and it is much easier to hold on the target if you can distinguish the rings and place the crosshairs surgically; something you will not be able to do easily with a mildot.

Then again, eyes are different and I am 57 years old, so keep that in mind. Canted rails are good, I currently use Burris Signature Zee rings with inserts.

I believe flash suppressors are allowed, provided they serve absolutely no purpose in braking the rifle; they are definitely a rare sight on the line because most people do not care if the target sees the muzzle flash.