Movie Theater SH Book Club # 5

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Arch

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#1
<span style="font-weight: bold">The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism</span> by Andrew J. Bacevich. One Place To Purchase
What really focused me in on this book a few months back was the continuous references to Reinhold Neibuhr, an author and much more whose writing I have crossed paths with all my life. In clear ways and in common descriptions that Rand could only depict using actors and characters, Neibuhr the activist, theologian, and teacher warns of the dangers in self-deception. Bacevich I really like, and not because he is a professor or retired US Army Colonel, but because of the way he writes, infusing historical examples and asking deep questions that no one can seem to answer despite the fact that they are unfolding right before our eyes.

In keeping with my conflict series, or Man versus __________, this one would fit in the Man Against Self.

I am just getting started, but, this book will not sit well in all circles. <span style="font-style: italic">"Neibuhr once wrote disapprovingly of Americans, their 'culture soft and vulgar, equating joy with happiness and happiness with comfort."</span> A point here and there will stab you in the gut.

<span style="font-style: italic">"As actually expressed and experienced, what is freedom today? What is its content? What costs does the exercise of freedom impose? Who pays?"</span>

The book is dedicated to his beloved son, 1stLt Andrew John Bacevich, US Army, KIA 13 May 2007. I'd say this man has paid enough to ask you, the reader, these hard questions.
 
#3
Re: SH Book Club # 5

This one is going to be extremely tough, -tougher than I originally thought- and certainly an exercise in wordsmithing. I invite any and all reviewers to try their best to avoid naming names or party policies; to stay away from the 'pol' side of it, and instead focus on the issues of constraints and restraints, things that must be done and things that cannot be done. I read the first 75 pages last night. First it jabbed a finger in my left eye, then it ripped part of my ear nearly off.
 
#4
Re: SH Book Club # 5

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch Stanton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> First it jabbed a finger in my left eye, then it ripped part of my ear nearly off. </div></div>

Try his other work: "The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War".

It's like getting punched in the stomach.
 
#7
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Lindy, nice link. You might also enjoy the writings of Michel de Montaigne.

Arch,

Interesting choice of a point of view: an author who sees the US, in general, as not acting in its own best interest; and US foreign policy failures since president Wilson as the bi-partisan result of ignorance in the form of disregard of the particular local historical situation of the countries it attempts to influence.

Regarding the theme of Man against Self, this one, #5, moves us away from Aristotle's classic definition of Justice as the duties, notions and practices of friendship and toward a discussion of Virtue as a public instead of a private matter.

His writings are more than mere policial science (if memory serves, Bacevich was a Poly Sci prof at BU in the 90's), they also beg questions of what public political justice - in the form of the history of foreign policy endeavors - means to a diverse society and how that practice affects social stability.
 
#9
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Lindy and Arch,

Perhaps Pareto's legacy, in the influence of his writings on Mussolini's rhetoric, captures how utilitarian interest-based economic philosophies advocated by thinkers like Rand became rigidly corporatist and in doing so chased reason from public discourse and replaced it with dogma.

...just a thought.
smile.gif
 
#10
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Hmm. I'm not sure how to phrase this without getting into trouble.

I'll have to think about how to respond to that, and I'll probably wind up sending you a P.M.

We really need to have that discussion over a table with a bottle - or bottles - of really good Scotch.
laugh.gif

 
#11
Re: SH Book Club # 5

I think you'd be doing all of us wordless onlookers a great disservice by privatizing the remainder of this conversation.

I believe Graham has a point but am personally unsure yet as to whether or not I share that opinion.

I'm just gonna sit here on the fence and hope on of you intellects is able to give me some ground to land on. I feel like the finale of conversation on book#4 left me hungry for more material for thought.

 
#13
Re: SH Book Club # 5

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch Stanton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He buys in.</div></div>Hardly.
Pardon the pun, but that was a cheap shot.
smile.gif


It's just that Arch is not only smarter than I am but also more concerned about it than I. On the positive side, Arch, like Voltaire, provides faithful witness by reflecting the reader. But we have a fundamental yet friendly disagreement about approach: I believe that the only set boundary of the internet post is its ability to communicate with the reader; that any value or power to what one writes is lost if others can neither understand nor decipher it. In short: Nobody cares how 'smart' I am; but everyone cares whether I am trying to help or hurt others in our community.
 
#14
Re: SH Book Club # 5

It was cheap, I agree. Arch leans toward this social hypocrisy at times, although I am trying my best to break him of it. Sometimes, especially as of late, corporate references set him off and Sheen-like, his two fathers, Barnes and Elias, fight for possession of his soul. Usually only brief interludes, but during these times he mainly is writing to himself. There was simply no reason for him to treat you like Sir Danvers Carew.

2954d21.jpg


Apologies. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program and intelligent discussion.
 
#15
Re: SH Book Club # 5

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch Stanton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was cheap, I agree....especially as of late, corporate references set him off and Sheen-like, his two fathers, Barnes and Elias, fight for possession of his soul...Apologies...</div></div>LOL!
laugh.gif
 
#18
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Using the aforementioned reference to issues and responsibility as a guide, let me refer you to the words "central paradox" on Pg. 11 and "always unnecessary" on Pg. 12 as a starting point.

Does the author address relevant themes with the first reference? Does a constant throbbing pain drive the second? Or, like me, do you suspect that he is hitting bullseyes?
 
#20
Re: SH Book Club # 5

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VSP968</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The central paradox:
america_is_not_at_war.jpg

<span style="font-style: italic">(image hot linked without permission)</span></div></div>The real paradox is that, wherever you are, the essential is always elsewhere:
On September 11, 2001, some were vaporized as thousands more had their destiny determined for them, unable to change reality. The passengers on the airplanes, who might have known what was about to happen, could neither choose not to be there nor think their way out.

The lesson is, among more important ones, that there will always be people 'at the mall'.

Dark prospects exist in the world whether we recognize them or not. Our only choice is to be conscious of them. The more important lesson of 9/11 was how well we recover when we do it together, and how well we fight regardless of the ones who stay behind to shop.
 
#22
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Well, my copy came yesterday, and I set down and read it, although I did take time for our usual evening hold'em game.

If I had read this book without knowing that the author was a retired Army Colonel, I might well have concluded that it was written by a liberal Berkeley poly-sci professor - and, yes, that is redundant.

Yet, the author's well-reasoned arguments are difficult to refute.

The book appears to have been largely written before the financial collapse which started in the fall of 2008, yet that collapse reinforces the author's points about the limits of power - economic, political, and military.

It does an effective job of making the point that Americans have been in denial about the limits of power in several different areas - and the bill for that denial is coming due.

It is a temptation to believe that we know much more than we do, and the author might have spent more time discussing the limits of knowledge than he does, because knowledge is power.

I'm not going to try to fully review the book - I haven't the time. But I do recommend it to anyone who wishes to think seriously about the course of the nation.

Arch - thanks for the recommendation.
 
#24
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Lindy, your welcome. I found it somewhat painful when Toto pulled back the curtain and revealed that not only is there no great OZ, but that the levers and cords being pushed and pulled are actually controlled by an ugly, little fat man that looks a lot like u.s.

I tend to enjoy books where all the answers are not provided.
 
#27
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Has anyone ever heard of a book called master sniper.If so is it a decent read.
I think this book was written by the same suthor that wrote war of the rats (cant remember his name) or was it another steven hunter novel.
if anyone has acopy would they be interested in selling it?
 
#30
Re: SH Book Club # 5

As I look back over some of my notes and try to think of some way to express myself without pontificating about themes in this book I find that I simply cannot. They are too close to the mark, and some of the questions I am afraid to answer. It really troubled me. Again and again while reading this book my thoughts searched for something I had read before somewhere, about high-heeled boys who wear masks that act as a facade to hide their lack of real substance. I racked my brain for the reference I was thinking of but it would not come. I feared becoming one of the hollow men that I had steeled my heart to work against.

"<span style="font-style: italic">I all alone beweep my outcast state,
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries..."</span>
(Thanks Will S.)

Then, while speeding down an old country road this morning while singing with a good friend named David Alan Coe...

<span style="font-style: italic">MAMA SHE'S OLD FAR BEYOND HER TIME
FROM CHOPPIN' TOBACCO AND I'VE SEEN HER CRYIN'
WHEN BLOOD STARTED FLOWIN' FROM HER CALLOUSED HAND - AND IT HURT ME</span>

it came to me out of the blue. It all stemmed from being raised to have a total lack of respect for people that do not earn their way...that talk the talk but do not walk..."whose manner and authority of voice far outstrip his true abilities"...who know far better what the people need than do the people themselves. Yes, America had started to think that because someone had stepped to the plate and taken a swing at the ball it meant that everyone was now a professional athlete, with all the benefits that come with that.

But the I want it all, I want it now and I will pay nothing for it approach can only work as long as there are suckers. If you have read this far then my biases are probably quite apparent and you might be interested in reading the reference I was referring to. Here it is.
 
#31
Re: SH Book Club # 5

I've had similar thoughts about this book - which is why I recommend people read it.

Interesting link on Cheney.

One of the things that I've noticed is that many young people today want a lifestyle the equal of what their parents worked for years to afford - the big house, the nice cars, vacations in Europe, etc.

To achieve that, they must go heavily into debt. And they helped to build the bubble of debt which has now burst.

I suspect that it will take a long time to pay the bill. One commentator predicted that we will not see real estate prices recover to the bubble prices in our lifetime. I'm not that pessimistic - but I'm pleased not to own any real estate.
 
#32
Re: SH Book Club # 5

I would point you, reader, to the bottom of page 99 because in my humble opinion, and based on my experience, "the reason seems clear..."

If I were to sit and think hard on the men that truly made a difference in my life, or even brought about a slight change in course, it would have to be the Gunnery Sergeant, a man confident and experienced enough to say "with all due respect, do you know what a football bat is?"

But not all that wander are lost. Thanks to those that help light the way.
 
#36
Re: SH Book Club # 5

41,

Here's my problem with this (The 2004 Rolling Stone link) article,

"In both cases, Cheney and Rumsfeld played the key role in turning opportunity into chaos. Ford, <span style="text-decoration: underline">like Bush later, hadn't been elected president."</span>

Bullshit, as a fundamental component of the article so basic as to be uttered with such casualness, undermines the whole article. As the statement regarding W not being elected is so unambiguously dishonest and hateful, if follows that the whole of the article is an exercise in propaganda.

Cheney likely wouldn't piss on me if I were on fire. I agree that no self respecting man would have gone to such herculean effort to avoid military service. Is he a pussy? Duh.

I haven't read Rolling Stne since the time I read about Jackson Brown wimpily complying as a douche he had been smoking weed with moments before, stole his leather jacket; leaving him cold, afraid to confront him and mouthing the gutless justification that the theif must have needed it more than Brown.

I didn't read that article ( On Jackson Brown)any further either. Life's too short for even well written bullshit.

The second article isn't so easily dismissed.


Edited to correct mistaken atribution to Bacevich article in recent link.

 
#37
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Wow; this stuff is <span style="font-style: italic">way</span> over my head. My current reading is more along the lines of J.D. Robb and Jim Butcher.

Moreover, I suspect that this sort of reading will spike my BP and probably lead to my forum demise.

Folks will always take advantage of creditors, to whatever extent those creditors permit. They could not overextend themselves unless the creditors made it possible. It's 1929 all over again, but with a completely different response. I used to demonize FDR, back when the economy was strong. Now I'm not so sure.

I do not blame the child for getting sick on candy, I blame the parent who left that candy where it could be abused.

Greg
 
#38
Re: SH Book Club # 5

Hmmm. Mo. I agree with your comment about the old spilled milk election argument. A wasted sentence that probably kept a few from reading on. I would, however, like to read a thorough investigation of his involvement with Halle Berry err.. Burton.

I don't spend too much time with the Rlling Stone either, except at one barber shop I visit every month or so, and the issues there are pretty old and ragged. That's where I originally came across the article, and then Googly allowed me to find it again. I might also recommend an article titled BOSS HOG, and Hunter Thompson's eulogy of Nixon.

Greg, hmmm, you must be enjoying some good candy.
 
#39
Re: SH Book Club # 5

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would, however, like to read a thorough investigation of his involvement with Halle Berry err.. Burton.
</div></div>

Another thing I now have to look into in order to find out how insufficently baked my notions are...
 
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