Range Report Shitty range day, need opinions!

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Hey guys, went out and shot 25 rounds today at 150y & im incredibly frustrated..... i shot 5 shot groups and had 3 on spot then 2 shots that went 1-2 inches directly left of the group almost every group, WTF am i doing wrong? Do i need to work on load development or me?
Im shooting a....
Rem 700 5R Milspec .308 off a
Harris bipod w/cleats and rear bag....
168gr SMK
Varget
Lapua brass (neck sized)
BR2 primers

 

[LawnMM]

Stock have an adjustable comb?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

You dont need BR2 for that load.

 

[Rillhurst]

Focus on the ‘ Me’ first...
Generally will pay the highest dividends.
Most have an occasional off day. How did the day compare to your average as a baseline...
Are you typically a sub-moa shooter?

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Stock have an adjustable comb?

Yes

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Focus on the ‘ Me’ first...
Generally will pay the highest dividends.
Most have an occasional off day. How did the day compare to your average as a baseline...
Are you typically a sub-moa shooter?

Usually 3/4 moa at 100y, sometimes 1/2.... thats why so frustrated

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

You dont need BR2 for that load.

Or any of the other components, but its high qaulity so its easier to keep variables like cheap shit out of the equation....... ?????..... not sure where your going with this?

 

[wade2big]

Buy some factory 175 FGMM and compare to your groups that will tell you if its the ammo or not. Those 5R remingtons love tha load.

 

[clcustom1911]

I had a bad range day a few weeks ago. I went home frustrated as hell, broke out the Rye, poured it over ice and chilled out!!

A couple weeks later I had a great range session as well as yesterday. I consider it an anomaly. It happens.

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

This is what i was using.....

 

[wade2big]

This is what i was using..... View attachment 7048751

Classic lines. I sure like it.

 

[PAYDIRT]

I get to shoot with the same group of guys almost every weekend, everyone gets hot and cold. I've had good and bad days just like everyone else. And I try not to pay too much attention to groups, it will get in my head quicker than anything.

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Classic lines. I sure like it.

Thanks! It was a gift from my wife, so i didnt want to veer too far from stock. The plan was for it to be a sleeper for PRS style matches.......

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

I get to shoot with the same group of guys almost every weekend, everyone gets hot and cold. I've had good and bad days just like everyone else. And I try not to pay too much attention to groups, it will get in my head quicker than anything.

Lol, its definitely in my head now....

 

[FatBoy]

Check parallax (may be too late)
Ring to base for torque
Action screw torque

If these are all confirmed good, I suspect you may be loading the bipod different for a couple shots. It's very easy to shift POI .5 moa off a bipod if it's not loaded the same each time.

Head position (tension) and body position (recoil) can also shift your POI.


Was the target offset at all from your normal frame?

Like others have said. Could be nothing. When I am having an off day I pack it up or go shoot pistols. Perfect practice makes perfect. Shitty practice, not so much.

 

[crunchy]

Looks like a nice rig. Stock trigger? That would be the next thing to look at to shrink groups. That said, I would look at load development as the culprit. Load 3 round each at say .3 higher and lower than your money load. Might do the trick.

 

[Maxduty]

It's your cheek weld. You're pushing the comb. focus more on your shooting position.

 

[flyer]

It might be contact in the barrel channel.

 

[TheGerman]

It's you and your cheek weld/moving the stock after the recoil from the first 3 shots.

With that said....

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

☝?Hahahaha

 

[RackOpsTactical]

Couple things to try.

Was wind a factor that day?
Torque everything again
Try some factory federal gold metal match
If possible have someone else test your load in their rifle and yours. If they shoot it and it's off in the same pattern as yours than it's either the rifle or the load.

 

[Nik H]

Nice stick

I always blame myself and I am always right.

Fundamentals matter. Focus on the complete process for every shot without fail. Muscle memory is hard to change. You are moving, in my opinion, and pushing the gun. Don't know whether it is because you have bad NPA. It is a common error. Repetitive dry fire will get you a comfortable position that is super important to consistency.

Forget groups...they are of little use unless you plan on F-Class or Benchrest.

Use the SH Dot Drill. Break position after every shot. Stand up, walk away and reset for each dot. You will find out how consistent you really are.

Consistency and Precision...simply has no equal.................

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Or any of the other components, but its high qaulity so its easier to keep variables like cheap shit out of the equation....... ?????..... not sure where your going with this?

You don't need br2 with Varget, 168 SMK, and .308. Use CCI 200. As for cheap shit, many BR shooters prefer Wolf primers over br2. Nevertheless, you are probably flinching anyway.

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

You don't need br2 with Varget, 168 SMK, and .308. Use CCI 200. As for cheap shit, many BR shooters prefer Wolf primers over br2. Nevertheless, you are probably flinching anyway.

Why does it not matter with varget? You have my attention....

 

[Milo 2.5]

Nice stick

I always blame myself and I am always right.

Fundamentals matter. Focus on the complete process for every shot without fail. Muscle memory is hard to change. You are moving, in my opinion, and pushing the gun. Don't know whether it is because you have bad NPA. It is a common error. Repetitive dry fire will get you a comfortable position that is super important to consistency.

Forget groups...they are of little use unless you plan on F-Class or Benchrest.

Use the SH Dot Drill. Break position after every shot. Stand up, walk away and reset for each dot. You will find out how consistent you really are.

Consistency and Precision...simply has no equal.................

^^^ I agree with most of this method. Of coarse you need to know if the rifle groups, if it indeed throws shots after 3 it is no good. But like others have said, forcing it does not work. Try shooting, 3, reposition, shoot 3 more at a different aimpoint, if still tight and in relative same POI in relation to POA as the first, it is you.

Shoot 2 dot drills some day, one repositioning, one staying stationary, it will show your group size and tell you what you are going to do downrange.

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Its not always the last 2 shots.... it could be 1st & 4th, ..... has got to be me

 

[Milo 2.5]

Its not always the last 2 shots.... it could be 1st & 4th, ..... has got to be me

Lol, you need to shoot 10 shot groups then and obliterate the center then.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

BR2 may be too much ignition for Varget. Varget is already optimized for ignition. What you experienced could have been a lot of things but one thing I know unless you have a compressed load in .308 you only need LR primers to launch the 168 SMK. It was designed as an intermediate range bullet for accuracy at approx. 2650 fps. Also, and I'm a big advocate that once you store your loads shake them up a little in the box to level out the load when you get to the range to avoid inconsistent ignition. It can happen quick enough that it may not be noticeable behind the rifle. I don't think you were getting fliers. So, you were slightly off on the trigger or it is the load. Also, when neck sizing do it once then rotate the cartridge a little and size again to avoid run out. Excessive run out leaving the muzzle at different points of the clock can cause your problem as well. When you post a problem like this the responses can get a little overwhelming. BTW, what twist is your barrel.

 

[KOPFJÄGER13]

Good info culpeper! Twist rate is 1-11.25"..... the bullet i liked the best is the 155gr scenar, tried a box of these 168gr smk cause they are locally in stock and kinda a pain to order scenars all the time....

 

[Milo 2.5]

Good info culpeper! Twist rate is 1-11.25"..... the bullet i liked the best is the 155gr scenar, tried a box of these 168gr smk cause they are locally in stock and kinda a pain to order scenars all the time....

Eliminate stuff one at a time now, highlighting your abilities is as easy as redoing, or finding another to shoot your rifle. You can tweak your load right now, does not mean it will not surface again.

 

[antithesis]

Cerakote the action and barrel black, it fixes everything. Just in case is doesn't...

 

[Subwrx300]

Cerakote the action and barrel black, it fixes everything. Just in case is doesn't...

View attachment 7048990

That's a cool chart for pistols and possibly offhand rifle shooting, but I'm not sure it would do much for rifles when prone or on bench (it would be backwards if anything). The fulcrum points are very different: pistol is around the grip, which means forces to the right move muzzle right and vice versa. So being to far right on trigger ("too little trigger finger") would move muzzle left. On a rifle, prone with a bipod, the forces are reversed at muzzle: pushing left on but stock would cause muzzle (and bullet) to move right.

I fight misses high left also and I've isolated it to three aspects of my prone technique (right handed shooter):
-Too much cheek pressure : moves comb down and right; muzzle up and left. Fix is less cheek weld pressure.
-spine/shoulder pointed right of target (not inline enough with recoil); miss left. Fix is better sqauring behind rifle and pulling left back (to square shoulders to spine)
- too little rear bag squeeze/ pressure or settling (recoil pushes butt down and muzzle up). This is a tough one to control with a sloped buttstock vs a flat rear stock slider.

On a side note, I do think it would be cool to develop a chart like above for common prone rifle POI shifts.

Hope that helps!

 

[Huskydriver]

Problem is it looks like your using an moa scope...

 

[RadKad]

Good info culpeper! Twist rate is 1-11.25"..... the bullet i liked the best is the 155gr scenar, tried a box of these 168gr smk cause they are locally in stock and kinda a pain to order scenars all the time....

Mine really liked the 155 smk's.

 

[Snuby642]

When I have groups go sour I take a short break .

Settle in slow down and try the next group. If still acting up I get one of the range guys and let them shoot a group or 2, they like doing it.
No matter thier group size if the pattern repeats I stop pissing ammo.

Then start the process check list of all the demons.

If the range guy shoots a good group Or 2 I have them watch me to look for whatever stupid fundamental shit I decided to ignore that day.

Fully believe it will hit the best of shooters, usually distracted by lifes problems of some kind.

 

[hafejd30]

I’ll suggest you check to see that your not twisting the stock, causing it to touch the barrel or something of the sort. Shooting on Bipods, especially ones with spiked feet don’t have much give. So if you unknowingly twist the rifle to the side you add pressure to the front of the stock. I would guess since it’s not consistent that’s it you that is the cause. Only other options I would think would be something loose, base/rings. Or your reloading is causing it. Different neck tension from different amount of firings, using 2 lots of brass, powder, primers etc

 

[hafejd30]

I’ll also throw in there to sort your bullets. I had a box of 300 gr Sierra SMK I was using in my 338 LM. I kept getting the same issues your having. Turns out there was obviously 2 machines pumping out the bullets for the box of 500 I had. They were several thousandths off from each other but I was running .015” off the lands. At .010” the gun did not shoot as well and the other lot of bullets was running close to that mark measuring from the ogive. I pushed them back to .020” off and the problem went away. As it shot good .020” or .015” off the lands

 

[antithesis]

That's a cool chart for pistols and possibly offhand rifle shooting, but I'm not sure it would do much for rifles

It is for pistols, but the principles still apply. Pretty rare that you are dropping shots with a rest or bipod, but left, high and left, almost always the trigger finger.

 

[Subwrx300]

It is for pistols, but the principles still apply. Pretty rare that you are dropping shots with a rest or bipod, but left, high and left, almost always the trigger finger.

Agreed that trigger plays a part but pistol has two points of contact: hands and trigger finger. A rifle has 4+: trigger hand, trigger finger, shoulder, cheek and you could possibly include bipod pressure. All four/five have to work in concert exactly the same way for each shot in order to get shot on same POI/POA.

We are generally shooting 1.5-3lb triggers on 10-15lb rifles (1/5th to 1/10th the weight of rifle).

Compared to a 4-6lb trigger on a 1-2lb pistol (trigger is 3x heavier than pistol), the mechanics are not the same and the source of misses can come from other areas besides trigger finger.

There is a reason bench rest guys shoot free recoil and only manipulate a trigger without touching the rifle. They specifically need to remove the body and recoil management as a source of error.

I'm not dismissing the idea that trigger control is important; quite the opposite in fact. But you need the other points of contact exactly the same to ensure solid, consistent groups with same shape each time.

Agreed?

 

[antithesis]

@Subwrx300 indeed. Even where you place the bipod/reset matters. In the write-up about the warehouse in TX they talked about how important is was to get behind the rifle with a certain amount of shoulder. Too much, too little, would negatively effect the shot. I use a Bix'N Andy Benchrest trigger on my bench rifle. Set to 1 oz with a 0.03 oz break, you don't get much opportunity to make the trigger the problem. Palm pressure, rear bag/front rest not in the exact same spot, etc., all negates the trigger.

 

[Snuby642]

Free recoil wtf.
Why don't you get an I phone app to release the hammer.

That way you pussies don't breath on the rifle or stink up the range.

Try and free recoil your ass out of a 2 way range or shoot running game.

Snowflakes!

 

[Subwrx300]

Free recoil wtf.
Why don't you get an I phone app to release the hammer.

That way you pussies don't breath on the rifle or stink up the range.

Try and free recoil your ass out of a 2 way range or shoot running game.

Snowflakes!

To be clear, I have never and will not shoot Benchrest or free recoil... I prefer to hump rocks and lay in cowshit trying to make time on a stage, both of which happened to me at last month's match.

#getinthemudorgetlost

 

[patriot07]

I had something like this going on awhile back, and it turned from 1 range session into 2 and then 3 with all the same results. Called a local buddy of mine who shoots BR and he said to check to see if I was getting any carbon/fouling buildup in the neck area of the chamber right against the front lip. Sure enough I was. Cleaned it out and it went back to shooting tiny groups. Something worth looking at.

I've also just had bad days at the range, so that's always a possibility.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

Usually 3/4 moa at 100y, sometimes 1/2.... thats why so frustrated

I agree with this. Everyone has an off day every now and then so focus on what you can control first. If there was something loose on the gun you'd see it far sooner but it could just be some bad habits are developing. Check fundamentals, maybe run a patch of copper solvent through the bore and de copper it.

ADDITION: Sometimes old school dime washer drills are not a bad way to make sure your trigger pull is consistent. Another thing you may want to look at is a mantis x. Small little square you attach to the gun that has an accelerometer in it.Gives instant feedback if you are making mistakes.

 

[antithesis]

Free recoil wtf.
Why don't you get an I phone app to release the hammer.

That way you pussies don't breath on the rifle or stink up the range.

Try and free recoil your ass out of a 2 way range or shoot running game.

Snowflakes!

Oh, I see. There it only one way to shoot. Good to know that after all these years of shooting bench, open range, pistol, live action, backyard plinking, etc., I can now get down to the one and only approved way to shoot. Kiss my ass comes to mind.

 

[Snuby642]

Why don't you bed your rifle in concrete and use a phone to pull the trigger.

That will give you some accuracy to brag about.

Seriously free recoil is a useless practice.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

Why don't you bed your rifle in concrete and use a phone to pull the trigger.

That will give you some accuracy to brag about.

Seriously free recoil is a useless practice.

With how people keep adding weight plates to PRS guns and having more and more kit that takes the shooter out of the equation, might as well.

 

[antithesis]

I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone stated they shoot free recoil. It was mentioned as something that some do, he sure as shit did not say everyone or even he himself is doing it. Your spouting off is pointless, and your flexing over accuracy just as much. I can care less about how people shoot so long as they are not putting someone in danger. It is still as much a sport as it as about survival, it all depends on how you are applying it. Neither precludes the shooter from figuring out how to hit the mark. Taking the time to learn from what others are doing and figuring out if there is anything that can be applied in a way to improve what you are doing is, what I can only assume is foreign to you, a reasonable way to learn.

 

[Subwrx300]

Oh, I see. There it only one way to shoot. Good to know that after all these years of shooting bench, open range, pistol, live action, backyard plinking, etc., I can now get down to the one and only approved way to shoot. Kiss my ass comes to mind.

Nah, he's busting balls. Bench rest and practical shooting have different fundamentals and skill sets. It's probably a bit difficult to practice shoulder pressure and cheek weld shooting a totally free recoil bench rest rig.

It's not one way to shoot but different types of shooting; there are also very different levels of skill needed to shoot each type.

I personally haven't used a bench to shoot seated more than 5 times in the last 7 years. So I would be a good candidate to provide info on getting solid bench rest aggregates, but do know a lot about positional shooting.

Snubes is just being a hard ass ?

 

[hlee]

How this thread has gone sideways is as comical as it is predictable. "What am I doing wrong?" is about as open ended as you can get. I think everyone else has hit enough potential sources of variability that the OP should be busy for the rest of the year... But, that's not why I'm posting. The squabble about free recoil is too funny to pass up- especially as it relates to 20 lb match rifles shooting short action cartridges. Anyway, I was at the range yesterday with my RPR in 6.5 creedmoor (14 ish lbs) and a Remington 700 in 300 weatherby magnum (10 lbs). The 6.5 shoots a 147 gr projectile at 2680 fps and has very modest recoil. The weatherby launches a 200 gr projectile at 2950 fps out the front and launches a 156 lb shooter at an equal speed out the back...

All of that is to say that match rifles and cartridges are rapidly evolving to where free recoil shooting is becoming viable in that sphere. I prefer a good handle and firm shoulder on my rifle, but I've seen some good shooters clean stages from wobbly supports and weird positions with the stock completely off their shoulder...