F T/R Competition Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

[XTR]

I'm thinking that I want to play with a .223 for medium range F-TR.

The general though is to get a Savage 12 F class or FTR and give it a whirl.

Has anyone else given it a whirl? How does it work?

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

In 'normal' i.e. light to moderate conditions, it should work just fine.

I have a 12 F/TR in .223 Rem (surprise, surprise) that loves the B82BT seated 10 thou into the lands. Mid 2800s for MV, and very, very easy to shoot, both in terms of recoil and expense. The load will get to 1k... but thats what I have other guns more suited to the task for. The barrel has a 1-7" twist, and I did play with the 90VLDs some... just seemed like a whole lot more work (and headaches) for minimal returns, and not worth it for me at the time.

As to how well *can* it do... well... a couple years back I shot it at a four day match in British Columbia, 300, 400, 500 & 600 meters. Took 1st F/TR for the tournament, and finished 5th in the overall... and another guy shooting a .223 Rem (with S80MKs) was right on my tail the whole way.

After that, my plan *was* to just shoot the .223 Rem @ 600 & in, and shoot the .308 for long range. One thing led to another, and I'm currently waiting on a dedicated stock for the .223 (was swapping two barreled actions between one F/TR stock - not exactly ideal). As a result, the limited match time I have this year... will be with a .308, period. Once I get that stock in and bedded... I think the .223 will go back to being my 'fun' gun for local mid-range matches.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[223ai]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

+1 for 82gr Berger BTHP. I point mine, and built it to run in PRS matches along with the local f/tr matches to 1k. 8202 XBR, Wolf SRM, LC '11 brass nets me 2900-ish out of a 27" Brux (6.5 twist) finished at 27". I holds it's own against my .308 by a sight.

At 800 and in, my 223 holds it own, and my only problem is spotting impacts/misses at longer ranges in tactical matches...which is not a problem in F/TR.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> my only problem is spotting misses at longer ranges in tactical matches...</div></div>

I fixed it for you.

 

[223ai]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

RAD is still mad at me....

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Nah, I've just seen you shoot.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Damn Pipes, you went from a 308 to a 223.........your going in the wrong direction grasshopper.

 

[XTR]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I've picked up a Savage 12 F lass chambered in 6.5-284 with about 200 rounds through the tube. I have no interest in F Open so I'm going to re-barrel it. I've already got my R700 with a 30" Krieger I'm just waiting for my reamer to put together target Defiance action in 308. I really don't need another 308 and I'm thinking that .223 might be fun to play with for 600 yard shoots.

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

xtr, what lenght barrel will you use for mid-range chambered in.223? Monte, what about you, same question?

 

[jagged77]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I've used my 20" SPS Tact with 69 SMK's for 500 yard FTR and it's performed very well. I shoot this combo out to 900 yards and when the wind isn't too bad its bloody accurate.

 

[RStewart]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

The only rifle I have ever competed with in FTR is a Remington 700 in .223. It can hold its own.

 

[XTR]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

This is a single feed target rifle, no point in not going for all you can get. If I pick up a barrel it will be a 30 or a 32.

The velocity I gained going from a 24" to a 30" shooting a 308 at 1000 shaved 2 MOA off of my elevation. If I run the numbers that also translated to a fair amount of windage.

I'm not convinced that this is not going to end up with a 308 barrel. I've got the parts for a new target build on a Defiance action, but I'm not convinced that it's the way I want to go any more. I've got a 30" Krieger blank, I could sell the action and have a lot of $$ to put into other stuff. (like finishing my Service Rifle build or getting that custom Stevens 44 1/2 built in 30-40 Krag)

 

[Denys]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I have no experience shooting a Savage 12 or FTR, in either .308 or .223.

On the other hand I have shot a few .224 bullets in F-T/R comps, even all the way to 1000 yards.

The .223 Remington is a lot of fun to shoot, there is little recoil and that makes it very pleasant. It's also highly accurate and there are now a lot of good bullets for it. I'm a JLK afficionado in .223 and .308 and I use the 80 JLK in my .223 F-T/R rifle on top of 24.5gr Varget in a Winchester case with a 7 1/2 Remington primer. I seat the bullet so that it's in the lands about .020.

I have tried the Berger 82gr and I'm sure I could use that bullet if I did not have access to the JLKs.

I totally agree with you about the longer barrels, for .308. I'm not so sure you will get the same velocity differential with the .223. My belief is that past 26 inch, the incremental velocity is simply not there. But I am looking forward to your report and perhaps you will show me to be all wrong about that.

 

[XTR]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Denys, I've never fired the .223 except playing with my AR, which is what's got me trying to get a feel for service rifle. My knowledge comes from one of the Palma guys I shoot with, I think he's running a 32. He has played with a number of bullets and shoots the .223 (among others) all the way back to 1000. I understand that the irons guys are looking for all the sight radius they can get so longer is better in that way for them too. Don't know if he's getting better performance from the long barrel.

Unless a .223 does like a 22LR and hits max velocity at some point in the tube (and I could see that with the small case) why not run the long tube. On a pod and bag it isn't any harder to use.

 

[Denys]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I'm not saying it's going to slow down or anything, I'm saying that I do not believe it will increase anywhere near as much as you would hope for.

As an example, according to the Hodgdon web site, my 32 inch .308 barrel is pushing my 180gr bullets a little over 200FPS faster than what comes out of a 24 inch barrel. You probably get similar results in your .308s.

I counted on that velocity increase with the long .308 barrel; if I were building a long-barreled .223 I would count on maybe 100FPS more velocity out of a 32 inch tube over a 24 inch. If I got more, I would certainly not turn it down.

And yes, you are right, there is no reason not to get the longest tube possible provided you make weight.

At any rate, I hope you are now intrigued enough that you will get a 32 inch .223 barrel and prove me wrong.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I am running a 30 inch bbl and if you did some research, you would find that with the bigger bullets, 30 inches is the optimum lenght for .223. Go longer and the bullet will start to slow down and shorter will show thee same thing, slower V's as well. Just remember, that your powder choice has a lot to do with it as well. I have found that a 7.2 twist bbl shoots very well with several bullets. My Mid-Range rifle is using a 75 Amax and 24.0 grs of H4895 and Lapua brass with a Wolf SRM primer. The 1000 yard rifle is using a Berger 90 VLD with Lapua brass and the Tula SRM primer with 25.0 grs of RL15. Next year I will be running two .223's and a 22BR all with the 90 grain bullet.

 

[XTR]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIE107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am running a 30 inch bbl and if you did some research, you would find that with the bigger bullets, 30 inches is the optimum lenght for .223. Go longer and the bullet will start to slow down and shorter will show thee same thing, slower V's as well. Just remember, that your powder choice has a lot to do with it as well. I have found that a 7.2 twist bbl shoots very well with several bullets. My Mid-Range rifle is using a 75 Amax and 24.0 grs of H4895 and Lapua brass with a Wolf SRM primer. The 1000 yard rifle is using a Berger 90 VLD with Lapua brass and the Tula SRM primer with 25.0 grs of RL15. Next year I will be running two .223's and a 22BR all with the 90 grain bullet. </div></div>

Thanks Randy, now I don't have to try to remember. I was planning to ask you what you were running if I ever get around to needing to load for this.

 

[FALex]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I shoot my model 10 fcp-k in .223 at 600 and it has the 9 twist, using 69gr SMK's. I believe the model 12 has the 7 twist...you can shoot those 90gr VLD's at 600 no problem...

 

[XTR]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Actually, my Model 12 is a 6.5-284 right now, but I don't plan to ever shoot it that way. I can order a barrel pretty much any way I want it for this.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

As for the barrel length vs. muzzle velocity thing...

Sav 10FP w/ Lothar-Walther 24" 1-8" tw barrel (albeit with a *short* throat) B80VLD, 24.2gn RE-15 = 2840fps

White Oak Armament space gun upper, Douglas 26" 1-7" tw barrel, Wylde chamber, B82BT, 24.6gn RE-15 = 2860fps

Sav 12 F/TR w/ factory 30" 1-7" tw barrel (assuming a Wylde chamber as all measurements for brass and seating depth are identical to those from the space gun), B82BT, 24.5gn N150 = 2850fps

I had loaded B90VLDs over N550 in the 12 F/TR, but don't recall the MV just now. They were more of a PITA than they were worth, in my opinion, and not strictly necessary @ mid-range.

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I shoot .223 at 600. It's a Savage 12 with a 28in 1-7 twist Shilen Select Match. Using PP 2000 MR and Berger 90 VLDs, I'm getting 2990mv. I've pushed them a bit more, but brass life suffers. Had to do some mods to my seating die due to the VLD length, but after that was done, everything loads well. Won a few matches this year and have made a few others "work" for their wins...

I'm currently testing some stuff in Kansas out to 1000. An old Army Battle-Buddy of mine has a setup for me on his farm. Even the local farmers get a kick out of shooting it at 1000. The winds make it tricky, which is great. No reason to play if the winds aren't kickin'. Setting up the wireless target cam next month. and get it setup. Then I can get serious about wind calls. More to follow..... Headed up to the Eastern Nebraska Gun Club match this weekend to play with the Huskers for a while......

I love being Retired........

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSchilling</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using PP 2000 MR and Berger 90 VLDs, I'm getting 2990mv. I've pushed them a bit more, but brass life suffers. </div></div>

Holy schnikey... Thats motatin'!

How is PP2000MR in terms of temperature sensitivity? That was the big problem I had with N550 - loads developed in 70-80F weather blew primers in 90-95F temps.

I've seen one mention of people getting similar (~3k) velocity with RE-17, but they wouldn't say more than that.

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Sorry for the delay.... had to take my 5 year son to the archery range on base.....

2990 is my summertime load.... and no issues with primers at all. I backed it down because I was only getting 6-7 reloads, but I only dropped it .5 grains. I helped another Army buddy build a Savage with a 1-8 twist for 80 grain VLDs.... movin those at 3050. All the shooting we do is in 90-105 temps.... normal day in South Texas.

I was shocked also when I got the original numbers and then I tried them on another Chrony.... same results.

I use it in my .308 and my .338-06 and it produces incredible results. Both of them love it.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I have been looking at 2000MR very hard, I have a feeling it might work in the 22BR as well.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Oh and by the way, I am pushing that 75 Amax @ 3150

 

[Denys]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

In a .223? That's impressive.

And very dangerous. I do not want to be near you when you are shooting.

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

SIE107: That would be interesting out of a .22 BR. I did some "paper research" on using it in a 6BRX setup, but it hasn't gone anywhere. The BRX continues to be a Varget baby !!!

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

KS,

With the 6mm versions, Varget and RL15 may top choice and 2000MR might work. It is a lil slower burning than RL15, but I have seen that with the heavier bullets in the 22BR, that powders in the burn rate compared powders like H4350 and RL17 are better suited. At least on paper and in Quickload. Not knowing exactly where 2000MR sits in relationship of scale, it is a guess right now. My SWAG department says to reach out and give it a whirl! It would be very nice to only have to use one powder and one bullet. Of which I already know that in Jan I will be getting 7000 of the Berger 90's.

As for brass, not sure yet, me thinks Lapua, but I was kindly given some LC brass from a Team that is very very nice in spec and I want to do some testing with it in the .223. It looks very promising and if I actually can use it instead, the money I would have spent on the Lapua 223 brass, will go way further with the LC brass. What I will do there is buy a few thou, sort it and then sell off the out of spec stuff for plinker brass, since I don't plink.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Oh I forgot to mention, Quickload says that the top dog powder for the 22BR and a 90 is RL17:

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

KSchilling,

Those numbers are impressive...very impressive for a 223...i thought those velocities were only possible out of a hot-roded .22-250...

Can you post any other 223 loads you've shot with 2000MR? Include powder charge, bullet weight, COAL, cases, primer, brass and velocity if you have it all.

I also need the same for your 308 loads.

I have about 4lbs of 2000MR left. I just finished my service rifle build (AR-15 w 20" barrel) and 1/2 way done w my M110 service rifle build...it would be nice to get a starting point for the 556 loads.

The plan is to shoot 77gr Noslers at the short lines (200 & 300) and 80gr bergers or 80gr AMAXs at the long line (600yards)...My barrel is a 1x8 twist, and may not stabilize the 90gr bullets.

For the M110 build, the plan is 175/178 pills atop 47.5gr 2000MR (~2700fps based on 300yard & 100yard dope out of my other 308AR) and XX.Xgrains of 2000MR behind 208AMAX at 600yards & 1,000yards.

My 30" 308AR build is still waiting on a barrel, and I'm hoping i can get 200fps faster than i can out of my 20" barrel.

Winchester brass and wolf primers for the 308, and LC brass and wolf for the 556

Thanks again.

 

[Xcount]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

I tried MR2000 in a .223 service rifle and the results, while not horrible, were nothing great. The only real negative was a very pronounced increase in recoil and heavy ejector marks even though the primers look fine. I got better velocity out of the faster powders. Accuracy was right on par with RE15. I tried it with Hornady 75's and 80's. I don't think there is enough barrel to take advantage of the powder speed.

Now in a 30 inch barrel the MR2000 is like rocket fuel...

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Xcount,

What loads did you run and what velocities did you obtain?

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

SIE107: You might have something there.... 90 Bergers out of a 22BR? The PP 2000 MR is supposed to be the same speed as RL17

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

TX-Flyboy: If your intentions are to try it out of a Service Rifle, I can't make any recommendations. I shoot Bolt Action F Class only. I do know someone that tried them on a AR platform, but I'm not aware of any findings.

I've spent alot of time with 2000 MR and the results show one ver consistant factor.....

The powder likes heavy bullets, long barrels and bolt guns.....

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

SIE107:

"It would be very nice to only have to use one powder and one bullet. Of which I already know that in Jan I will be getting 7000 of the Berger 90's"

Yep... I made that same jump.... I'll save you a seat at counseling.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Yeah if you run the numbers, the 22BR at least on paper can very well be inside the 6.5X284 @ 1K, without the recoil! Heck I have been shooting the 223 so much that my 308 Palma gun feels like a magnum! I feel as a Any/Any gun, with the reduction of recoil, less chance of my position being disdurbed!

I like the sound of 2000MR be like rocket fuel! Just so long as it will get the rifle in the right node with speed, that would be awesome!

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Keeping an eye on this thread. I believe my next barrel will be a .223 for mid range. Thinking about another Criterion, the .308 I have shoots realgood. I just feel I NEED a .223.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

The only problem with a pre-fit bbl as I see it, is that your at the mercy of the reamer that they are using!

Also, my experience has been, that you prob will get more velocity with the Rock Creek bbl, if you order now, you can can get one the list for a .223 bll, fore they are cutting those now! My reconmendation is a 7.2 twist, 30 inches at the finish, medium palma contour.

I use a Wylde chamber reamer and throat the bbl for the 90's, so the bullet is seated in the case out enough to stay away from the donut area of the neck. This I have seen also helps with pressure, being that the load that is use is 25.0 grs of RL15 and Lapua brass.

I do a lot of prep work to brass and the effort has proven to be fruitfull.

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

How much is a Rock Creek pre-fit running for a Savage? What is the time running from order to receiving date? I'm sure I'll be going on their site and checking them out.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

There is no such love. You have to order the barrel and have a smith chamber and install the barrel. A new barrel will prob coast about 320.00 for one that will finnish at 30 inches.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

According to some posts on savageshooters.com, Rock Creek was supposed to start offering pre-threaded & chambered barrels for Savage at some point this year.

They seem to be running a considerable backlog in general, so I don't think anyone has gotten one of these critters yet.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

From what I understand, Krieger (Criterion) and Rock Creek have a 8 month waithing period right now on bbl's

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Rock Creek themsleves stated on Savageshooters.com that they do offer pre-fits. So there is such love.

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

It took me under 3 months to get my Criterion 1-11 twist 30 inch Bull in .308 from Jim Briggs. Cost to my door ready to screw on was under 355.00. Jim did not have this twist in stock. you can go to their site and see what they offer for Savage and get it from him.

 

[SIE107]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Ok, I got a chance to try 2000MR in my 223 with the 90's and so far I like what I have seen. There is a Fullbore match coming up to which I will give it a whirl. Running 27.1 grs under the Berger 90 it is pushing the bullet a 150 fps faster, which is about right to get into the next node on the bbl. Results on the target were very good, 1.5 inch elevation @ 600 yards.

 

[kschilling]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

Looks like you found the sweet spot! I'm currently doing development for a .22-250 AI (1-7 twist) running 90 gr VLDs. So far it's awesome! I'm really in un-charted waters with this one......

 

[scotharr]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIE107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, I got a chance to try 2000MR in my 223 with the 90's and so far I like what I have seen. There is a Fullbore match coming up to which I will give it a whirl. Running 27.1 grs under the Berger 90 it is pushing the bullet a 150 fps faster, which is about right to get into the next node on the bbl. Results on the target were very good, 1.5 inch elevation @ 600 yards. </div></div>

Wow...Alliants online guide lists 23.8gr with the sierra 90. Be safe!

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Lige Harris just came in 2nd (behind Trudy Fay, arguably one of the top 5 prone shooters in the world) in the SOA F-TR class, shooting a F-TR legal 223. He's a sling and coat shooter BTW, not an F-Classer. COF is 3, 5, 6, 9, and 1k over 8 days.

Yea I think the 223 can get the job done.</span>

My bad he shot a 308 not 223. Dude has shot some great scores w the 223 up against the 308s over the years though, sling and coat.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

That cracka above isn't to shabby with a .223 either.

 

[223ai]

Re: Shooting a .223 at 600 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lige Harris just came in 2nd (behind Trudy Fay, arguably one of the top 5 prone shooters in the world) in the SOA F-TR class, shooting a F-TR legal 223. He's a sling and coat shooter BTW, not an F-Classer. COF is 3, 5, 6, 9, and 1k over 8 days.

Yea I think the 223 can get the job done.</div></div>

Do you happen to know the bullet that he was shooting? Pretty impressive...