Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

[Snakum]

When I'm practicing a lot I can shoot a bolt gun decently for a noob. Generally finish back in the pack in competition, but I shoot a little better every time out as long as I dry fire lots before hand. And with the bolt gun I can hold 3/4 MOA or better every time with handloads or FGMM when shooting from prone. But I'm still not shooting the semi very well, relatively speaking. And I've read a couple of comments here about semis being run differently than bolt guns.

Is it possible for someone to articulate what I should be doing differently with the semi? Or what I should concentrate on, that's different? I can't load up a bipod with it due to non-free floated barrel, so I run it thrown across a ruck with a Tab or Red Tac rear bag, if that matters.

I always thought the basics were the same: eye picture/head pos always the same, breath control, smooth trigger finger straight back and hold, etc. What's different?

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

You're right, it does come down to the proper application of the fundamentals. The biggest difference between bolt vs semi shooting I've seen is shooters can get away with a poor position and follow through more with the bolt action than they can with the semi. Natural point of aim and follow through are key due to the multiple recoil pulses felt.

A lot of the time the semi autos weigh less too, so shifts from poor trigger control show more readily.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't load up a bipod with it due to <span style="font-weight: bold">non-free floated barrel</span></div></div>
That could be your problem too....

 

[maladat]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

What is the rifle?

Another thing that makes follow through critical with semis is that they typically have a lot longer lock time (time between sear release and primer ignition) than bolt guns.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Snakum, I found what you are experiencing to be true as well and the reasons are explained above. Simply put, a semi is just plain less forgiving than a bolt gun.

If you really want to see an exagerated example of this, try going from a match grade bolt action in .22 to a semi auto. You really have to hang onto the semi to control what goes on AFTER the squeeze of the trigger.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Aaaahhhh. Good info. Thanks, guys.

The rifle is a Saiga 308 with a barrel trim, target crown, and PWS brake. With a lot of work I've gotten it down to 2 MOA consistently for ten shot strings, out to 300 yards so far. Sometimes I'll even get sub 2 MOA for three or four before it starts opening up (heat is not helping). I'll only be using it for mid range comps and hunting, but wanted to wring everything possible out of it. I think the only remaining work to be done is the nut behind the trigger.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

splaining a saiga do splain alot..........prolly ok for "mid range comps"......what ever that means....

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aaaahhhh. Good info. Thanks, guys.

The rifle is a Saiga 308 with a barrel trim, target crown, and PWS brake. With a lot of work I've gotten it down to 2 MOA consistently for ten shot strings, out to 300 yards so far. Sometimes I'll even get sub 2 MOA for three or four before it starts opening up (heat is not helping). I'll only be using it for mid range comps and hunting, but wanted to wring everything possible out of it. I think the only remaining work to be done is the nut behind the trigger. </div></div>

I would not consider a Saiga to be a "precision" rifle. I am sure it makes a fine hunter or plinker. It might even work for some 3-gun competitions. I have not been to a competition where a 2 MOA rifle would be worth shooting if there was ANY other alternative.

It's not really putting a Saiga down. It's just not the right tool for a precision rifle match.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Biggest difference in my experience is the trigger squeeze. It's almost hard to explain but with a gas gun I get the best accuracy when I execute the firing sequence "agressively" without disturbing NPA.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change

I find my semi .308 amplifies anything I do wrong. Especially trigger pull and follow through. I have to mentally make myself pay attention to 90* pull and complete isolation of my trigger pull with no other movement until the gun is finished firing and going back into battery. I can jump behind a bolt and run it without issue but have to be mentally in the zone for the semi....not so much the 5.56 but the .308 is different. As long as I concentrate on being just a square slab of meat behind the gun and controlling the gun with a an isolated 90* trigger pull I shoot it very good. If I get lazy it shows right away. I have to shoot it regularly to drive it it right.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Naaah, I don't use it for "precision" shooting. Mid range comps = local SDM matches at 450 and below, and also for 3-gun at 200 or less with the 1-4x mounted. I'm still a relative noob but I ain't <span style="font-style: italic">that </span>noobie.

It's never going to be a 1 MOA weapon (despite what the three-shot wonders claim on the interwebz), but under 2 MOA consistently is fine for what I need it to do. Keeps all my semis on the same platform, too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Biggest difference in my experience is the trigger squeeze. It's almost hard to explain but with a gas gun I get the best accuracy when I execute the firing sequence "agressively" without disturbing NPA.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find my semi .308 amplifies anything I do wrong. Especially trigger pull and follow through. I have to mentally make myself pay attention to 90* pull and complete isolation of my trigger pull with no other movement until the gun is finished firing and going back into battery.</div></div>

So it's more of a 'controlled snatch' (nice term

)? I'll be taking it back out Saturday afternoon with the bolt gun and will try to work on a quicker squeeze and hold.

Thanks again guys.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

GG ... Woody's SDM match in Moncure is coming up in June. You'd probably enjoy it. He should be posting the date soon.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it's more of a 'controlled snatch' (nice term

)? I'll be taking it back out Saturday afternoon with the bolt gun and will try to work on a quicker squeeze and hold.
Thanks again guys.
</div></div>

Close but it's a little more than that. Keep in mind that this is how it makes sense to me so opinions may vary, but when I've got game with an auto I'm "ahead" of the firing sequence.

As an example you can relax on a bolt gun and if your squeeze doesn't affect NPA, you've got a good sight picture without parralex issues, the natural movement of the rifle after ignition has little effect on the round. The shooter is "behind" the firing sequence and it doesn't matter. Its why bolt guns are more consistent...once the trigger breaks the shooters role is essentially over.

With a gas gun there are so many different movements after ignition that being too relaxed allows the movement of the rifle to affect the round. So I mean agressive in the context of staying in <span style="font-style: italic">front </span>of the firing sequence. I do this by not letting the trigger break...I break it, and its not just the trigger. Everything from bipod loading, breath control, grip on the bag or monopod, cheek pressure on the stock, and likely a few more little involuntary habits that I don't even think about, I perform them all slightly more agressively so shit just doesn't "happen" to the round...<span style="text-decoration: underline">"I"</span> happen to the round.

When I'm having a good day with an auto I'm <span style="font-style: italic">driving </span>the round all the way to the target, not just merely pulling the trigger. I can't always do it and only can pull it off around 60% of the time. Doing that perfectly evey single time would be the holy grail.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

The online training covers this in detail. Its well worth the price

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The online training covers this in detail. Its well worth the price </div></div>
Not exactly. It explains the mechanics of why its harder but doesn't really tell you how to overcome it. Not saying anything negative about the training...I think its great. There's just no step A, B or C to follow for accurate auto shooting. It's more of a Zen moment and you'll know it when you find it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

There actually is an A, B, C, to it, explained in the video, in quite a lot of detail.

You are given the cause and effect, and the solution, but being it is in a classroom setting I can see where someone needs a second set of visuals, although we do shoot semis quite often in the videos, we certainly haven't explored the potential of the semi as much as the bolt gun, that is something I can do moving forward.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There actually is an A, B, C, to it, explained in the video, in quite a lot of detail.

You are given the cause and effect, and the solution, but being it is in a classroom setting I can see where someone needs a second set of visuals, although we do shoot semis quite often in the videos, we certainly haven't explored the potential of the semi as much as the bolt gun, that is something I can do moving forward. </div></div>

I only saw the one video and haven't had time to see them all. It's tricky for sure. Its like hitting the hardest club in your golf bag where you can't afford even the smallest error. I had mine out to 800 today for the 1st time and I was pleasantly surprised. For me it feels like a Zen thing and my comment about there not being any ABC's to it were in the context of "it's not quite that simple" or everyone could do it which as we know is not the case.

It's more like...A.1, A.25, B.1-8, B.27, C.4, C.495, C-65 LOL

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I could dig additional classes on the semi, for sure. I'll keep an eye out on the classes.

Shot it yesterday back and forth with the bolt gun for the first time, which made the problems even worse. I shot the best groups of my life with the Savage and then sprayed the semi all over the place.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I build my prone sling supported position for my AR in the same manner I build it for my marksman stocked Remington 700. The bolt gun does not allow for the sort of comfort I get with the AR, and, as suspected, I do not shoot the bolt gun as well as the AR. For any action type, the idea is maintaining control from the time the trigget is pulled until recoil has subsided. To do this you either make yourself fit the rifle or you make the rifle fit you.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

For you experienced guys like SS snd LL...I've gotten pretty good with an auto over the last year but if I were to measure that performance (which I try to do) I'd say that shooting auto I shoot a legitimate and repeatable 60%, meaning that if I were to hang 10 targets on a board and say shoot 5-10 round strings, 6 of them would be sub-moa groups. My goal is 80% or better and I can sometimes get it but I'm consistent at 60.

My question is, are your results with an auto similar in the context of...you can't be spot-on all of the time verses your consistency shooting bolt?

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I agree with Sterling.

I have shoot both bolt and semi. As a compairison. To me its no different from putting a nice revolver in my hand and then shooting a semi auto like my 1911. Both are single action yes, but different mechanically speaking. With shooting a hand gun, stance, grip, sight picture, trigger pull, BANG. The basic fundementals apply reguardless of the weapon platfrom. The revolver will require you to cock the hammer to turn the cylnder or squeeze the trigger on double action on the revolver just as you must cycle the bolt on a bolt action, and the 1911 just like a AR platform for example will do the work for you. I am right handed so when I shoot my revolver and I cock the hammer, I use my left hand thumb to cock the hammer so I dont change my grip. On my bolt gun, I just slide my right hand up the side of the stock from the trigger guard without changing my elbow position,and work the bolt.I also have a single stage trigger on my LR-308 so both have a nice 4lbs single stage trigger and simular stock.I just apply the same fundementals and not let the change in weapon platform mess with me, and that works for me and I am still new at this. A perfectly good example of that was my struggle with cold bore. After a fellow hide member linked me to Lowlight's video on that and how its a mental thing and not so much a mechanical issue and how to overcome it, my cold bored shot is right where it needs to be.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just apply the same fundementals and not let the change in weapon platform mess with me</div></div>
So are you saying that your consistency with an auto is the <span style="font-style: italic">same</span> as firing bolt? An if so what is your consistency firing a bolt? I'm asking because I doubt anyone here (with maybe a few exceptions) are 100%-ers or we'd all be national champions. Not trying to stir up shit with you so don't read this wrong BUT..

The difference between the mechanics of the weapons firing sequence is easily understood. I get that and likely does everyone else. Same goes for fundamentals...they're easily understood albiet not always so easily implemented with consistently...the human element.

That said, I have a hunch that given a talented shooter (not necessarily a grand master nimja type) but someone that is very good, his hit percentages will be different between his bolt and auto performance (generally). I'm trying to figure out what that deviation generally is (sure, won't be the same for everyone). Not to prove anything here on the hide but to take myself to the next level. I'm somewhat of an analytical type and I'd find this type of info valuable. Simply stating "fundamentals this...and driving the weapon that" doesn't help <span style="text-decoration: underline">me</span> internalize the information. I believe it's easier to eliminate a deviation when you can quantify it. That's all.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

There are 2 issues to deal with.

1. The weight differences between a 5.56 and 7.62 In both bullet weight and mechanical weight. It changes things in a way you can't compare shooting a mouse gun next to shooting a 7.62 semi.

2. And really the most important, trigger control and follow through. Even with a bolt gun most shooters don't follow through. They in fact use light triggers and simply "tap" them hoping lighter is better. With a 7.62 semi follow through is key. Like a handgun or carbine if you are not getting that clear audible reset you are not going to reach your accuracy potential with a big semi. Follow through is the key along with truly coming straight back on the trigger, and that is so misunderstood to a lot of shooters which is why they fine them less accurate when they shoot them. The number 1 problem among a majority of people I have seen is lack of follow through and poor trigger control, the idea that you can "naturally" find the proper form is evidentedly false by the large numbers of people who do it wrong.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I think I need an experienced shooter to watch me on the semi. I've been dry-firing with it and concentrating on the basics, just like I did with the bolt gun last year. But even though I think I'm Bob Lee Swagger some days with the Savage ... I look more like Micheal J. Fox on the semi.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

LOL not at all no no not taking the wrong way brother.I am not one of the guys who gets up in arms over being asked to explain himself lol. I am obviously lacking in articualtion today lol. I don't know how to explain other than don't over think it, and what adjustments I need to make between the 2 I just do because I have shot them and know how they operate.Just like getting into my wifes car or my truck. What I did was have a close freind of mine that is a former Recon Sniper stand over me and watch me shoot then tell me what I was doing wrong and I saw that by fixing the issues " squared me away". When I switched platforms I had him do the same thing. After enough times of doing that, when I picked up wichever rifle I could hear his voice in the back of my head, by the numbers, begin lol. As Sterling said, the idea is maintaing control from the time the trigger is pulled until the recoil has subsided. To make this happen you either make yourself fit the rifle,or make the rifle fit you.I would suggest have someone watch you shoot one then the other, correct what they see while you are shooting, then switch between the two. I would also recomend trying to set them up the same way i.e. simular stocks, trigger pull type and weight and reticle. Dryfiring will help, best part is its free. I hope I have not been as clear as mud feel free to p.m. so we dont hi-jack Snakum's thread.

 

[coolhandjoe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Could you just borrow someone's proven semi gun and see if it's you or the gun. I just keep feeling like the problem is more firearm related. I could be totally missing the point though. Also is the gun setup the way you like it ie grip, trigger, stock, etc. Have you tried balancing a coin on the end of your barrel and noticing how much it moves while and following your trigger pull.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Chiming in late here as I wanted to see where this thread went. I asked a similar question a couple of months ago and only got a couple of responses so thanks to all for your thoughts. Problem is that I have never had an issue going from one platform to the other and now I am really thinking about it due to all of the comments. Damn the luck.

I just don't see an issue as long as one really sticks to the basics and let's the rest happen. If your trigger control, NPOA, follow through, etc are sound it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coolhandjoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you just borrow someone's proven semi gun and see if it's you or the gun. I just keep feeling like the problem is more firearm related. I could be totally missing the point though. Also is the gun setup the way you like it ie grip, trigger, stock, etc. Have you tried balancing a coin on the end of your barrel and noticing how much it moves while and following your trigger pull.</div></div>

It's a converted S308, comfortable, but very light, and even with a PWS brake it's pretty snappy. Once I developed a good load for it I put in a shooting rest and from the prone it will shoot 3 shots into roughly 1.25 MOA, 5 into 1.75 MOA, and ten stay right at 2 MOA, out to 300 yards (haven't shot it farther yet). So I know the weapon can do better than I can shoot it. All I need is sub 2 MOA for ten out to 500 yards. And I believe it will do that if I can get the shooter up to snuff.

 

[BCP]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

You could try installing an aftermarket trigger (my PSL has a red star arms in it and it made a difference) but honestly if you're getting an 1.5-2" with it and it's consistent I'd leave it. That's about the best you can hope for with a saiga.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Generally it's not a "trigger" issue where an aftermarket trigger will fix it, it's a trigger control issue.

People can be very good at shooting groups with a bolt gun and having terrible trigger control, and absolutely no follow through. It happens everyday. In many cases they have no idea they are not even doing it, so it's hard to self diagnose.

I have shot stock triggers and they are fine, in fact the 2 stage trigger found on most should be easier for shooting it effectively. The problem with lighter weight single stage triggers is they promote the "surprise" and thus lead to tapping the trigger which is exactly what you don't want to do.

Just because a person can shoot a boltgun well, read: shoot a good group with it, doesn't mean you can translate that to a semi that is meant for precision engagements.

 

[coolhandjoe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

What size of groups are you shooting with it from your competition stance? How long do you have for the 10 shots? Are you relaxed and clear headed when you pull the trigger or are you frustrated or anticipating?

 

[BCP]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Red Star Arms trigger is 70$ and feels about like the trigger in my Garand (2stage, I think it breaks at 4-5lbs). It's a good trigger. IIRC the stock saiga trigger is about 8-10lbs and single stage.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I put a G2 in it when I converted it. Good, light trigger. But it's a little <span style="font-style: italic">too </span>touchy sometimes, to me. Too many surprises. As Frank mentioned, I need more dry-firing and someone watching me shoot in the field, I think. Lots more work on the nut behind the trigger. The Savage has spoiled me.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Biggest difference in my experience is the trigger squeeze. It's almost hard to explain but with a gas gun I get the best accuracy when I execute the firing sequence "agressively" without disturbing NPA. </div></div>I agree. I am the same way when shooting any of my semi-autos.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MPB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Biggest difference in my experience is the trigger squeeze. It's almost hard to explain but with a gas gun I get the best accuracy when I execute the firing sequence "agressively" without disturbing NPA. </div></div>I agree. I am the same way when shooting any of my semi-autos.</div></div>

I think I need to better understand "aggressively". I'll explain how I currently run the semi, which is a little different from the bolt gun already, and could some kind soul point out where my sequence/thinking is off?

1. Set up prone with rifle across ruck sack and bag under the stock. Get proper eye relief, check NPA, chamber a round.
2. Safety off, double check NPA and 'mandible weld' while getting finger situated for straight pull.
3. Squeezing rear bag to slowly come up to dead center of target (1" orange dot), while timing a breath pause.
4. Pull trigger the first few mm just before the break as last breath is exhaled.
5. If on target, quick squeeze and hold, eye stays on target. Lighten finger if not on target at final exhale, back to step 3.
6. Finger relaxed to reset point, back to step 4.

The G2 trigger will cause a double every time if I try to squeeze it as slow as the Accutrigger on the FCP. So I have to bring it back firmly and hold it. But when the round is touched off, the very light rifle really jumps. It's not as bad as it was, nor is there any 'recoil', really, thanks to the FSC30 brake. But it's still a pretty healthy 'jump'. I've been trying to concentrate on squeezing firmly and holding, and maintaining target in the scope.

Any of this seem screwed up, already? Am I maybe wussing it?

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But when the round is touched off, the very light rifle really jumps. It's not as bad as it was, nor is there any 'recoil', really, thanks to the FSC30 brake. But it's still a pretty healthy 'jump'. </div></div>

There's been something burning in my head (besides dead brain cels) for quite some time...the effect of muzzle breaks and flash hiders. With all the extra movement of an auto while the round is still in the bore it begs the question...

Does the gas exiting the bore in <span style="font-style: italic">front</span> of the round impart movement of the bore while the round is still in it? My gut tells me the answer to that question is yes. I had wondered about this when I was diagnosing bipod hop. I've since overcome bipod hop with a few changes to my equipment and grip but I've always felt that those things were bandaids rather than fixes.

I may be out to lunch on this but breaks and flash hiders direct gas horizontally away from the bullet path but if these things are not perfectly ported/machined or simply indexed to the bore it may explain quite a lot. I haven't tested this theory but its making more sense every day. My Barret .338 recoils way more than my SASS yet I can stay on target better with the Barrett and I don't have to ride it as hard as the SASS. I'd be curious to see some side by side testing of an autos accuracy with and without a break installed.

If the extra mechanical movement of an auto is responsible for so much loss of accuracy, it stands to reason that adding additional movement via a break while the round is still in the bore may not be the best idea.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I dunno about the physics, but I literally cut the groups in half just by adding the PWS brake. Not sure why. I just assumed it cut down the amplitude of the barrel and receiver flex (the receivers of stamped AKs actually flex a little bit).

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno about the physics, but I literally cut the groups in half just by adding the PWS brake. Not sure why. I just assumed it cut down the amplitude of the barrel and receiver flex (the receivers of stamped AKs actually flex a little bit). </div></div>
I can believe that...maybe all brakes are not are not created equally.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

This kind of conversation can go around and around without an outcome, since either a bolt or auto gun can be fired consistently shot to shot. You shoot what you've got. These days I mostly shoot a match conditioned service rifle, so, what I ponder is perfecting my consistency with it. When shooting my bolt gun the process and procedure is the same: build the position aligning sights, adjust NPA, focus on sight, smooth trigger control, and follow-through. My expectations with either rifle are the same, zero displacement.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

With an AR from the bench, I get best results with the offhand up front on the handguard, controlling point-of-aim, and also tension of the rifle on the bags and against my shoulder. With the harmonics of the semi-auto and seemingly more necessity to follow through, I try to duplicate everything about each shot (and not simply where the reticle is when the weapon fires). Just judging by the way the rifles recoils, I can usually tell if the shot will be good before verifying through the scope. "Drive" totally with the front hand and don't try to adjust aim using the trigger hand.

If I find myself "fighting" the setup to get the reticle where it needs to be, the shot rarely flies true. It's better to back off and reposition so that the reticle settles nicely on target each time with minimal "struggle".

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Just got back from checking the zero and shooting a 12 rounds. I had a bud watching me shoot: a hunter type, but ex-mil and experienced. And a good shot.

I loaded just 12 rounds, and used three to zero. My zero group on a 2" orange dot ran just over 2.25". He said he thought I was actually flinching a little. The rifle is so light compared to the bolt gun it really jumps, even though the brake calmed it down. So I shot the 9 left in the mag trying to think "AGGRESSIVE" while still concentrating on the basics. 7 rounds went into 1.125" and 2 more made it 1.750" (all me, no doubt). I'll post a pic when the camera gets back.

If I can get it to 1.5 MOA consistently that's probably all I can hope for. And that will get the job done. It was never intended to be a precision rifle, of course. Thanks for all the help.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

I just got a SEMI reading your quote, just sayin

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an AR from the bench, I get best results with the offhand up front on the handguard, controlling point-of-aim, and also tension of the rifle on the bags and against my shoulder. With the harmonics of the semi-auto and seemingly more necessity to follow through, I try to duplicate everything about each shot (and not simply where the reticle is when the weapon fires). Just judging by the way the rifles recoils, I can usually tell if the shot will be good before verifying through the scope. "Drive" totally with the front hand and don't try to adjust aim using the trigger hand.

If I find myself "fighting" the setup to get the reticle where it needs to be, the shot rarely flies true. It's better to back off and reposition so that the reticle settles nicely on target each time with minimal "struggle".</div></div>

You only want to exert enough pressure with the non-firing hand to control the rifle, not steer it. From the bench, adjust NPA by moving your seat. It's a hassle, for sure, so, when shooting from sandbags, when possible, you may want to shoot from prone. I prefer shooting prone with sling over bench rest as, for me, it assures greater consistency from shot to shot; plus, for me, it's a more meaningful position, that's to say one I'm more likely to use.

You're right about the reticle/target relationship. If you build your position with that in mind first, it will undermine the outcome for a multitude of reasons, but mostly, it's a distraction to mental management. First, when shouldering the rifle, do not consider a reticle/target relationship. Instead, accept the NPA wherever it is; and, thereafter, satisfied that, through stockweld, you have created a consistent eyeball/eyepiece relationship, adjust NPA for the hold you're seeking. While maintaining the sight picture, pull the trigger utilizing smooth trigger control, and follow-through. If you've done everything properly you should be able to call your shot. Calling the shot will aid efficient/effective shooter/target analysis.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Shot again today, and jumping on the Saiga immediately after the bolt gun again caused all sorts of retardation from a seated position. Sprayed everywhere. It's a big transition. But had an experienced LR shooter watching me this time and in the prone he got me tucking the stock in tighter, lying my insoles flat on the ground, and taking more time to set up NPA. Made a real difference in group sizes.

So now I just gotta get my dope and relearn MOA vs mils. Dials in 1/4 MOA but I want to use the mil reticle to hold over. I had a correction at 300 yards that I thought I dialed in correctly with the 1/4 MOA turrets, but I shot way over. My brain hurts.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So now I just gotta get my dope and relearn MOA vs mils. Dials in 1/4 MOA but I want to use the mil reticle to hold over. I had a correction at 300 yards that I thought I dialed in correctly with the 1/4 MOA turrets, but I shot way over. My brain hurts. </div></div>

If you use the trajectory calculator on the JBM ballistics website, you can designate what you want in the two resulting reference columns. Select one column to show moa at each distance and the other to show mils. It makes for easy trajectory data that shows it both ways on the same printed chart.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

why was i not alerted to this popcorn fest......

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you use the trajectory calculator on the JBM ballistics website, you can designate what you want in the two resulting reference columns. Select one column to show moa at each distance and the other to show mils. It makes for easy trajectory data that shows it both ways on the same printed chart.</div></div>

That's what I use, and I printed out MOA and mils. Problems arose when I had relatively large adjustments to make once I shot thru the dope, and the calculation I used to convert the mils to the new MOA for a given distance was way off. I started another thread on it. I've only used mil/mil scopes and just messed up the math.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why was i not alerted to this popcorn fest......</div></div>

You were dressed in chaps over a thong and headed to the gay bar. You looked like a man on a mission so we didn't want to bother you.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Shooting a semi vs. bolt ... technique change?

Priceless