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Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
Heard of but I never do it.
I think it comes from the fact that when shooting a large depth HP cavity HPBT bullet's. The bullet has not the poop to keep it from Keyholeing past a few hundred yards at best at subsonic Vel. There is no need for the search of a high BC long range bullet for Subsonic. Because the High BC, match HP bullet will not carry stable as far as a plain round nose of solid jacket bullet ( When Starting out it flight) out the Muzzle in subsonic flight.
By turning the (for example) 240 grn. sierra HPBT around backwards. You are putting the weight up front and keeping it stable for longer yardage down range if flying and spinning backwards. If put in normal/forward point. The AssHeavy HPBT will not stay stable and will tumble if you don't. (imho) High BC bullet design does not mean much Dittely for Subsonic long range shooting.
But I really don't think that anyone actually shoots a subsonic platform farther than 2-3 hundred yards anyway, As the Elev. Holdovers are as high as Godzilla's asshole when he's standing on Mt. Fugi. so it really does not matter if the thing tumbles as long as it groups on paper in a reasonable size.
I also understand that the HPBT's make a nasty wound channel if shot normally and not backwards because of bullet Yaw on entry. BUT that does not matter much anyway either. Because, the bullet is just going to pass right through anyway because there is No Vel. to expand the bullet. The Jackets on all centerfire rifle bullets are to thick. So hunting subsonic front or backwards is about the same result in impacts also. You just punch a hole and hang back and wait for bleed-out.
Anyway, I hope this typed mess of crap helps answer the Q. ?
.
Heard of but I never do it.
I think it comes from the fact that when shooting a large depth HP cavity HPBT bullet's. The bullet has not the poop to keep it from Keyholeing past a few hundred yards at best at subsonic Vel. There is no need for the search of a high BC long range bullet for Subsonic. Because the High BC, match HP bullet will not carry stable as far as a plain round nose of solid jacket bullet ( When Starting out it flight) out the Muzzle in subsonic flight.
By turning the (for example) 240 grn. sierra HPBT around backwards. You are putting the weight up front and keeping it stable for longer yardage down range if flying and spinning backwards. If put in normal/forward point. The AssHeavy HPBT will not stay stable and will tumble if you don't. (imho) High BC bullet design does not mean much Dittely for Subsonic long range shooting.
But I really don't think that anyone actually shoots a subsonic platform farther than 2-3 hundred yards anyway, As the Elev. Holdovers are as high as Godzilla's asshole when he's standing on Mt. Fugi. so it really does not matter if the thing tumbles as long as it groups on paper in a reasonable size.
I also understand that the HPBT's make a nasty wound channel if shot normally and not backwards because of bullet Yaw on entry. BUT that does not matter much anyway either. Because, the bullet is just going to pass right through anyway because there is No Vel. to expand the bullet. The Jackets on all centerfire rifle bullets are to thick. So hunting subsonic front or backwards is about the same result in impacts also. You just punch a hole and hang back and wait for bleed-out.
Anyway, I hope this typed mess of crap helps answer the Q. ?
.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
LOL, I have heard of it, not ever tried it personally!!!
They said strange things happened and some funny noises.....the guy was fire forming and needed to get land contact,,,,,
FWIW,,,,
S
LOL, I have heard of it, not ever tried it personally!!!
They said strange things happened and some funny noises.....the guy was fire forming and needed to get land contact,,,,,
FWIW,,,,
S
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
I'm not going to try it. Not that it will not fly just great and make the Exact same round hole with tight groups at 100 yrd. just like shooting SMK's point first normally do when I shot them subsonic. When I shoot past 200 yrd Subsonic Vel. and I do not want any bullets to keyhole. I use 220 grn. round nose, Honady and not SMK's. Why fuckup a good thing I already got going ? ...
Plus turning your bullets around backwards when reloading is a kinda, Uhhhh, well... let's just say, Gay.
.
I'm not going to try it. Not that it will not fly just great and make the Exact same round hole with tight groups at 100 yrd. just like shooting SMK's point first normally do when I shot them subsonic. When I shoot past 200 yrd Subsonic Vel. and I do not want any bullets to keyhole. I use 220 grn. round nose, Honady and not SMK's. Why fuckup a good thing I already got going ? ...
Plus turning your bullets around backwards when reloading is a kinda, Uhhhh, well... let's just say, Gay.
.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
I've done it many a time, of course it was with double ended .38 wadcutters. I know, there's always a smart ass in every bunch. It does sound interesting though, not that I'm going to try.
I've done it many a time, of course it was with double ended .38 wadcutters. I know, there's always a smart ass in every bunch. It does sound interesting though, not that I'm going to try.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
Here's a thought. Try shooting a 7.62x39 with a backward HDY .308 150gr FMJBT and starting somewhere around 10gr of Unique. The exposed lead base turns the bullet into a trashcan-sized hollowpoint, and the teardrop configuration of the backward bullet is more ideal for subsonic aerodynamics and ballistics.
Might prove interesting. Lockbase bullets, backwards, should make devastating hollowpoints.
Greg
Here's a thought. Try shooting a 7.62x39 with a backward HDY .308 150gr FMJBT and starting somewhere around 10gr of Unique. The exposed lead base turns the bullet into a trashcan-sized hollowpoint, and the teardrop configuration of the backward bullet is more ideal for subsonic aerodynamics and ballistics.
Might prove interesting. Lockbase bullets, backwards, should make devastating hollowpoints.
Greg
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
During WWI, when tanks first started showing up, GIs were pulling the bullets out of their 30 cals and inserting them backwards, the inverted bullets penitrated the light armor better then normal 30 Cal rounds.
Besides penitration, the round sent in a hot liquid lead core, setting gas and ammo on fire.
During WWI, when tanks first started showing up, GIs were pulling the bullets out of their 30 cals and inserting them backwards, the inverted bullets penitrated the light armor better then normal 30 Cal rounds.
Besides penitration, the round sent in a hot liquid lead core, setting gas and ammo on fire.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
When I started shooting SubSonic rounds I read where doing this actually helped stabilize the bullet (kinda what Greg said). I never tried them (and won't) because there are already lots of good bullets that will stabilize and shoot good in my 1-10" barrel. I shoot 180gr RN bullets.
Keith
When I started shooting SubSonic rounds I read where doing this actually helped stabilize the bullet (kinda what Greg said). I never tried them (and won't) because there are already lots of good bullets that will stabilize and shoot good in my 1-10" barrel. I shoot 180gr RN bullets.
Keith
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
Thanks for the replies everyone! Is there anyone out there that has done this with say 175gr or 190gr bullets?
Thanks for the replies everyone! Is there anyone out there that has done this with say 175gr or 190gr bullets?
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
I have inverted many bullets, as to seat the base/boattail "outwards".
Ususally we do it when intentionally shooting the wrong barrel twist rate, or hunting for the proper twist of a given bullet, or just playing around on purpose. With a bullet tip pointed "forward/normal" we may get a keyhole in those cicumstances. Invert the same bullet, and you'd be surprised at some of the groups obtained by getting that "weight forward".
Shooting a bullet with a Flat Base tends to be more accurate in the sub-sonic mode. Look at the shadow graphs, and study the shock waves that are generated.
Dave D
CheyTac, USA
I have inverted many bullets, as to seat the base/boattail "outwards".
Ususally we do it when intentionally shooting the wrong barrel twist rate, or hunting for the proper twist of a given bullet, or just playing around on purpose. With a bullet tip pointed "forward/normal" we may get a keyhole in those cicumstances. Invert the same bullet, and you'd be surprised at some of the groups obtained by getting that "weight forward".
Shooting a bullet with a Flat Base tends to be more accurate in the sub-sonic mode. Look at the shadow graphs, and study the shock waves that are generated.
Dave D
CheyTac, USA
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have inverted many bullets, as to seat the base/boattail "outwards".
Ususally we do it when intentionally shooting the wrong barrel twist rate, or hunting for the proper twist of a given bullet, or just playing around on purpose. With a bullet tip pointed "forward/normal" we may get a keyhole in those cicumstances. Invert the same bullet, and you'd be surprised at some of the groups obtained by getting that "weight forward".</div></div>
+ 1
The 240grSMK backwards in a canned 700Rem/300 whisper is a very quite killing machine. When you start talking to folks about it, they think you need time on the couch,... until you prove it.
You have any time with a what I think is called the 510 whisper?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have inverted many bullets, as to seat the base/boattail "outwards".
Ususally we do it when intentionally shooting the wrong barrel twist rate, or hunting for the proper twist of a given bullet, or just playing around on purpose. With a bullet tip pointed "forward/normal" we may get a keyhole in those cicumstances. Invert the same bullet, and you'd be surprised at some of the groups obtained by getting that "weight forward".</div></div>
+ 1
The 240grSMK backwards in a canned 700Rem/300 whisper is a very quite killing machine. When you start talking to folks about it, they think you need time on the couch,... until you prove it.
You have any time with a what I think is called the 510 whisper?
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
From actual practical experience;
168 Sierra's loaded backwards in normal offhand loads @200 group as well as normal loaded rounds. 195 7X for me. Subsonic, YMMV.
Alan
My off hand average is 196 6X.
From actual practical experience;
168 Sierra's loaded backwards in normal offhand loads @200 group as well as normal loaded rounds. 195 7X for me. Subsonic, YMMV.
Alan
My off hand average is 196 6X.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
</div></div>
Is that you Mr. Segal?
In all seriousness, the chamber pressure with a round set deeper into the case than recommended can exceed normal and cause a KB. At least we'll recognized the greenhorn that tries this and gets unluck by the glass eye and phantom of the opera half-mask.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
Is that you Mr. Segal?
In all seriousness, the chamber pressure with a round set deeper into the case than recommended can exceed normal and cause a KB. At least we'll recognized the greenhorn that tries this and gets unluck by the glass eye and phantom of the opera half-mask.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
</div></div>
youre doing it wrong.
i heat mine up with a torch then pour out the molten lead and fill them with up cayenne pepper sauce. it burns like crazy upon impact.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
youre doing it wrong.
i heat mine up with a torch then pour out the molten lead and fill them with up cayenne pepper sauce. it burns like crazy upon impact.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RX7-2nr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
</div></div>
youre doing it wrong.
i heat mine up with a torch then pour out the molten lead and fill them with up cayenne pepper sauce. it burns like crazy upon impact.
</div></div>
Both of you got it wrong.
Remove the polymer tip of a 178 A-Max and then drill out the rest of the bullet with a 3/16" drill until you feel it make contact with the copper plate on the base (make sure it's centered or it will screw up the balance of the bullet), then brew up some home-made nitroglycerine, and pour this into the hole you just drilled. Cap it all off again with the removed polymer tip. Loader up nice and hot. It should explode on contact.
BTW, for all those without a sense of humor, this is a joke. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, KIDS.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RX7-2nr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For subsonics, I like to drill out the tip, and fill 'em with mercury and seal with parrafin, THEN seat them upside down.
Terminal effects are friggin awesome, and they work great in underwater gunfights, as long as the launcher is a Glock........
youre doing it wrong.
i heat mine up with a torch then pour out the molten lead and fill them with up cayenne pepper sauce. it burns like crazy upon impact.
</div></div>
Both of you got it wrong.
BTW, for all those without a sense of humor, this is a joke. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, KIDS.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
165 or 175 gr SMK backwards with Unique work OK (trial boss would be better) Load for 1025-*1040 FPS or so... The bullet flys better backwards.. has better terminal performance.... You WANT the pressure to build higher so it will seal the chamber... also it helps to reduce the case volume.
Lots of PROS. Not many Cons. More stable at sub sonic speeds and I believe it has a better sub sonic BC. But that would need to be tested
Problems with loading 308 sub sonic is getting the pressure to seal the chamber w/o going super sonic. Reducing case volume helps.
Also the point of the bullet being backwards into the case may help the Primer "flame" to ignite the powder.
I ran into a bunch of old WWII era info on loading bullets backwards with positive results.
I am shooting 150 gr 30-30 bullets, round nose soft point flat base bullets in my 308 for sub sonic as it will stabilize well at the reduced vel.
I had no key holing with the backwards SMK's but the 150's work well for me at the short ranges I shoot the quiet loads at.
165 or 175 gr SMK backwards with Unique work OK (trial boss would be better) Load for 1025-*1040 FPS or so... The bullet flys better backwards.. has better terminal performance.... You WANT the pressure to build higher so it will seal the chamber... also it helps to reduce the case volume.
Lots of PROS. Not many Cons. More stable at sub sonic speeds and I believe it has a better sub sonic BC. But that would need to be tested
Problems with loading 308 sub sonic is getting the pressure to seal the chamber w/o going super sonic. Reducing case volume helps.
Also the point of the bullet being backwards into the case may help the Primer "flame" to ignite the powder.
I ran into a bunch of old WWII era info on loading bullets backwards with positive results.
I am shooting 150 gr 30-30 bullets, round nose soft point flat base bullets in my 308 for sub sonic as it will stabilize well at the reduced vel.
I had no key holing with the backwards SMK's but the 150's work well for me at the short ranges I shoot the quiet loads at.
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
I've loaded many subs but never backwards.
Dumb question......What OAL do you guys load the backwards bullets to? Still 2.8" for 308?
thanks,
Keith
I've loaded many subs but never backwards.
Dumb question......What OAL do you guys load the backwards bullets to? Still 2.8" for 308?
thanks,
Keith
Re: Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
I've loaded bulk 168FMJ backwards in my 300 Whisper just for the hell of it, didn't seem to make a difference. My normal load is a 220SMK, which is good to 200yds at 300 they start to spread.
I've loaded bulk 168FMJ backwards in my 300 Whisper just for the hell of it, didn't seem to make a difference. My normal load is a 220SMK, which is good to 200yds at 300 they start to spread.
During WWI the germans loaded regular bullets backward to penetrate the armor (6 to 12mm) of the british MKI tanks. They also increased the charge significantly. This ended up causing rifles to blow up occasionally. The backward bullet got some of the blame for this. But it was likely the powder increase that blew the guns up.
Bullet stability is not just a twist rate, length, weight calculation. It also has a meaningful variable for muzzle velocity. a 1:12 twist at 3000 fps is 3000 rpm. the same bullet may likely still be well over 1100 rpm by the time it slows down to transonic speeds through air drag. However, when it has a 1100 fps muzzle velocity the bullet is only 1100 rpm. 1100 rpm will absolutely not stabilize the bullet as well at 1100 fps as 3000 rpm will stabilize it at 3000 fps. Bullets slow down at in air faster then they spin down. Nowhere close.
Rearward flying bullets, especially OTM with a shallow taper boat tail do have better balance than forward bullets. However, there are a lot of additional considerations. If you are inclined to work up a load you should also be inclined to test it for results. The bigger challenge is how to get uniform muzzle velocity with a case that has a tiny powder charge that might be distributed anywhere when the primer goes off. That is the challenge.
Oh My... Resurrected a 5 year old thread. Oops.
Bullet stability is not just a twist rate, length, weight calculation. It also has a meaningful variable for muzzle velocity. a 1:12 twist at 3000 fps is 3000 rpm. the same bullet may likely still be well over 1100 rpm by the time it slows down to transonic speeds through air drag. However, when it has a 1100 fps muzzle velocity the bullet is only 1100 rpm. 1100 rpm will absolutely not stabilize the bullet as well at 1100 fps as 3000 rpm will stabilize it at 3000 fps. Bullets slow down at in air faster then they spin down. Nowhere close.
Rearward flying bullets, especially OTM with a shallow taper boat tail do have better balance than forward bullets. However, there are a lot of additional considerations. If you are inclined to work up a load you should also be inclined to test it for results. The bigger challenge is how to get uniform muzzle velocity with a case that has a tiny powder charge that might be distributed anywhere when the primer goes off. That is the challenge.
Oh My... Resurrected a 5 year old thread. Oops.
Very many years ago, I purchased a bulk box of the Hornady 147gr FMJ bullets. This was before I really knew anything about reloading for accuracy, just blasting bullets for me. It didn't take me long to get bored with them, best they would do was ~~3" at 100yds. Skip ahead several years and I was stretching the enevelope a little and playing with this and that. I was looking for stuff to shoot practice with cheaply but accurately, played with lead bullets a bit in my .308 and 30.06. They worked decent but lead fouling was always a bit of a problem. In some of the reading I did on cast bullets, it was mentioned shooting FMJ's loaded backwards for accuracy.
The Hornady 147gr bullets that I had, I had figured out that they ran .3075" diameter (machinegun ball). Not conducive to good accuracy.
With lead bullets, the best you could do to reduce lead fouling is usually go .0005 over bore diameter to ensure proper sealing and it would reduce leading. I was hesitant using the 147gr Ball due to the smaller diameter but tried it anyways. It worked well. I know, I wasn't shooting subsonic, about 1,400 fps but it was a very good accurate .8 min loading. It was just as accurate with the bullets orentated properly point foward and was eaiser to load that way.
Try shooting with Unique powder. Lyman cast lead bullet handbook has a lot of low-velocity cast bullet loads that work as well with jacketed bullets for what used to be called gallery loads.
It's still a very nice squirrel load, loaded either way but feeds better with the point foward.
The Hornady 147gr bullets that I had, I had figured out that they ran .3075" diameter (machinegun ball). Not conducive to good accuracy.
With lead bullets, the best you could do to reduce lead fouling is usually go .0005 over bore diameter to ensure proper sealing and it would reduce leading. I was hesitant using the 147gr Ball due to the smaller diameter but tried it anyways. It worked well. I know, I wasn't shooting subsonic, about 1,400 fps but it was a very good accurate .8 min loading. It was just as accurate with the bullets orentated properly point foward and was eaiser to load that way.
Try shooting with Unique powder. Lyman cast lead bullet handbook has a lot of low-velocity cast bullet loads that work as well with jacketed bullets for what used to be called gallery loads.
It's still a very nice squirrel load, loaded either way but feeds better with the point foward.
Never done this in a rifle.
I have done it in a pistol when we used to do board shoots. The main problem is pressure as your creating a small shape charge In the case, tough on a breach.
I have done it in a pistol when we used to do board shoots. The main problem is pressure as your creating a small shape charge In the case, tough on a breach.
There I am spouting the wrong information. It is 3000 rps or 180000 rpm. Got the rpm number wrong. But the rest of the issue about why subsonic bullets require a tighter twist rate to stabilize is correct.
I have tried 175 SMK's loaded backwards with trailboss. They left the barrel, but they made a hell of a strange noise and went all over the place. Absoloutely no stabilization for me. I use 180 Rn flat base bullets now. I wont go back to testing that, too expensive and didnt work whatsoever.
Shooting bullets backwards in subsonic ammo?
Did your load achieve minute-of-German-tank-bullshit-story?
Wouldn't it be easier to simply turn the rifle backwards? Or does that not work because then you have to stay out of the way of the muzzle? ?
Did your load achieve minute-of-German-tank-bullshit-story?
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Here's some entertainment for you. I can neither confirm nor deny--just gonna leave it laying here.
The Box O' Truth #50 - Shooting Bullets Backwards - Page 1
I HAVE tried 55gr FMJ's and 145gr FMJ's backwards during my brief venture into subsonics. They would not stabilize reliably enough for me to chance it through my suppressor. I eventually decided I had no PRACTICAL use for ANY subsonic ammo except entertaining friends during suppressor demonstrations. I'll take the supersonic crack with good downrange performance any day. YMMV
The Box O' Truth #50 - Shooting Bullets Backwards - Page 1
I HAVE tried 55gr FMJ's and 145gr FMJ's backwards during my brief venture into subsonics. They would not stabilize reliably enough for me to chance it through my suppressor. I eventually decided I had no PRACTICAL use for ANY subsonic ammo except entertaining friends during suppressor demonstrations. I'll take the supersonic crack with good downrange performance any day. YMMV
It would be minute of German tank, not sure I had enough RPM to be within range....
Sorry to be contrary a 1:12 twist at 3000 fps is 3000 revolutions per second, not minute.
