Advanced Marksmanship Shooting in extreme cold

[Graham]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Muzzle velocity is a function of temperature. Believe the bullet.
</div></div>You mean that sniper show on the History Channel got it wrong when they said that the velocity of .50 cal ammo was higher in Afghanistan because of altitude?!! It just can't be: I saw it on television.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Thanks Lindy!

I believe it! I just wasn't sure if it would have that much impact difference @ 100 and I wondered if anyone else experienced the same thing at the shorter distances!

 

[SPAK]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Muzzle velocity is a function of temperature. Believe the bullet.
</div></div>

lindy, is the decrease in muzzle velocity from the change in DA or is it the change in burn characteristics of the powder?? If it's the powder, would it be prudent to bump up the charge to get back to the velocity/accuracy window that is desired?

 

[USP45T]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Sniper1*, I'm seeing nearly the same thing...3/4" down at 100 using 168FGMM from my 60-80degree zero, now shooting at 15-25degrees. Needed to move up 0.2mils at 100-200-300-400-500yds, then needed 0.3mils at 600yds.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Ah! Thanks for the response USP45T! Glad to see its not just me!

 

[jeffbird]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Recently hunted in Saskatchewan and had good luck with this spray on graphite from the same manufacturer as Kroil. Remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt, degrease them thoroughly with Gunscrubber, and then when dry, spray with this:

 

[2clicks]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I wonder if Hornady uses the same powder in those two Loads pull a bullet on each and check... supposedly Ball powder is affected by temp a little more than stick.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Lindy- I get that MV is a function of temp, but if the 100 yard zero is affected by 3/4 because of it, wouldn't the actual dope adjustments at the further distances (100 vs 200) require more "clicks"?

My 100 to 200 yard adj was the same at 70* and 30* - 2 moa!

If MV is affected enough to drop my zero @ 100 by 3/4 surely my dope adj would be affected, wouldn't it?

I didnt have a chance to try it at any further distances.

2clicks - I think I'll call Hornady to find out!

 

[Lindy]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lindy, is the decrease in muzzle velocity from the change in DA or is it the change in burn characteristics of the powder??</div></div>

Well, temperature is one of the factors in density altitude - but pressure and humidity do not affect muzzle velocity - only temperature. So, it's a change in the burn characteristics of the powder.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If MV is affected enough to drop my zero @ 100 by 3/4 surely my dope adj would be affected, wouldn't it?</div></div>

Sure. Believe the bullet.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Guys shooting in very cold temps, 30 degrees and below should check their scopes, I have seen and heard of scopes not tracking as well in colder weather. We noticed this at Thunder Ranch in the cold.

Be interesting to see if the changes are MV or Scope ?

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Im glad you brought this up LL..I wont mention the name of the manufacturer of scope but from 15 deg and lower the scope will not track(POI will not move at all) untill 1 or 2 rounds have been fired..Its even worse with the windage..Below zero its even worse..I have a feeling it may have to do with the type of grease used internally. This was not isolated with one scope but several scopes from the same manufacturer and I have brought up this issue with them.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

My 100 to 200 yard dope remained constant. 2 moa up to get poa/poi @ 200. That is the same for 70* or 30*. What changed is the starting point - 3/4 down. As stated above, when it is 70* I have my turret on "0" and come up 2 moa to hit @ 200. At 30* I start at 3/4 moa Up (Zero at 100) and then add the 2 moa for 100 - 200 yard change.

I'm sorry if I am not seeing the light here, but it just does not make sense that my 100 yard zero would drop 3/4 moa and then still only need to adj 2 moa up (after adding the 3/4 moa to get poa/poi @ 100) to get poa/poi if my MV is affected that much by Temp.

Lowlight - I don't disagree with you at all on the scope adjustment factor - however, the first shot and following group shots at 100 were without making any scope adjustments to start the shooting sequence. Hence, it should have already been zero'd to start at 100. Like I stated above, the Cold Bore and subsequent groups were tight at 3/4 moa low. Make the adjustment for poa/poi = 3/4 Up and dead on at 100. Now, move back to 200 starting with the 3/4 up starting point for zero add the 2 moa for the yardage diff and dead-on at 200 - Dope change from 100 to 200 still 2 moa. Only diff is the starting point at 3/4 up to get my poa/poi @ 100.

Sniper Voodoo!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I was just pointing out that we see scopes not track correctly in the cold, if you are seeing a 3/4" shift low, you might have to ask if the rifle has some condensation in the tube... coming from heat to cold, is that causing it to do something different. After which does it go back to zero / zero with a few shots down the tube when it is warm.

In other words, you shot a cold bore at 100, its low, then you add your normal dope to 200, well did you come back to 100 and is it still low ?

if that is the case it could be a very temp sensitive powder, you now have to try keeping your ammo warm before shooting and see what it is... does it change by adjusting your pattern. Ammo in against your body, to see what happens.

My post was just an FYI, not directed to you in particular

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Ambient (air) temperature does not affect external ballistics as much as it does chamber, barrel, cartridge and powder temperatures within internal ballistics and MV. Keeping rounds close to your body and warm (if you can)then load prior to firing will reduce MV variations. Just like rounds left on the dash of a truck on let’s say 80 degree day, will heat a cartridge and powder over 120 degrees and will affect MV.

LL has a great point, scopes and cold, bad JuJu.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Got it! thanks for clarifying that LL. I wasn't seeing the correlation.

I'm gonna guess that it is not condensation. Cold bore and subsequent shots, 2 5 round groups all 3/4 low. Then two hundred yard shooting and back to 100 for zero verify still 3/4 low.

I will however test the ammo - cold vs warm.

I'm gonna have to chrono again to see what I get now!

 

[sinister]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

MILSPEC ammo is usually tested at both conditioned high heat and cold sink.

Most any day you can see at least a minute down change from 32 in the morning to 55 in the afternoon (and back as the sun sinks).

Many scopes' internal lubricating greases thicken and are slow to recover/track once they go sub-freezing. Backlash increases and click correction often lags.

Many grouse about the scope not being consistent from sub-zero to 125+. As one Nightforce engineer told me, "Of course we can make a perfect scope with today's metallurgy, glass, and lubricant manufacturing technology. I can give you perfect -- but then you wouldn't be able to afford it."

What manufacturers sell is a compromise of what the customer wants and expects, what the makers can produce at profit margin, and the compromises both sides are willing to agree to and pay for.

Shot to 1800 yards a couple days ago, and the cases showed pressure signs even in sub-freezing out of that gun ("D'OH!"). Liquid lube starts to congeal and moving parts may bind. Firing pins may fracture and break.

It was 17F outside this morning (feels like 6). The 7.3 F-350, even with block heater plugged in wasn't cranking. Had to hijack the wife's car.

 

[Eagle1899]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Was out a week ago sighting in a new to me rifle. Temp was 28 when I showed up and dropped to 25 when I left(fingers were having a hard time feeding 22lr's into another rifle).

The scope was fine when I got there and started sighting in. But the longer I was out in the cold the less responsive the scope became. Make an adjustment and it would take little time for the adjustment to catch up. I found going a full turn both directions then back to the change in adjustment was the only way to get things to move right away.

Low end scope it was but it does show what can and does happen.

 

[2clicks]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

FWIW Monday morning I shot in 17 degree weather.
69gr SMK IMR4895 23.3grs velocity 2608-2632fps

75 degree day a similar load but less powder
69gr SMK IMR4895 23grs velocity 2632-2685

Note the second load had less powder but more velocity on a warmer day. Both loads were shot out of the same rifle, same brass, and same primer lot, same jug of powder.

Also the two scopes I used Night Force Benchrest 12-42 and Burris XTR 3-12 both responded properly to dope adjustments from 100-600.

I guess thats why it's so important to keep notes on varying conditions so you can correct for a given situation. Heck even something as simple as a cloud casting its shadow on a target on a sunny day with iron sights will make a change in elevation at 600yrds. There's a story of a National Highpower rifle champion battling the effects of cool weather on his ammo during the National Matches, changes in elevation. I guess he even had his ammo taken to his truck and had somebody put the bullets next to his heater to warm them up. Alls we can do is take notes and make changes accordingly that's why it's important to shoot in all conditions other wise we'd never know the potential of our gear.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I talked to Hornady today! They said the 168 TAP has 44.6 gr of Varget and the 55 gr TAP has Benchmark (didn't get the amount).

He thought the temp was affecting the gun, not the ammo.

FWIW

 

[2clicks]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Sniper1* if I'm not mistaken varget was the powder D. Tubb had issues with even though its suppose to be temp insensitive. I wonder exactly what the cold is doing to the rifle to slow the 168's down, when it isn't in your AR?

 

[theogre_52]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usmcsniperone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cold really does effect people differently. I have taken 4 or 5 different buddies out night hunting in Jan and Feb here in upstate NY over the years. I only have one of them that has stuck with it. When your eyelids freeze together and your a half mile from your truck at 0200 in the morning trudging through the snow drifts wearing 5 layers of clothes, humping a pack with all your gear, 4 spare batteries for your light, rifle, ammo, decoy and wearing snowshoes sometimes even I wonder WTF am I doing.

Then you get that rush of seeing those red eyes bouncing in and hear a whole pack of yotes howling at the call you just made and you forget the misery you are going through.

To me hunting a hunter like a coyote at night in his world in the worst conditions you can handle physically and mentally makes me feel more alive then sitting in the lazyboy watching TV.

This will be my first go at using a AR in these conditions. There will probably be a trial and error period involved, but I will have my TC Icon in the truck if a problem arises. </div></div>


Dosn't this make everyone want to start / continue to hunt yotes

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Not sure whats happening. I am going to make it to the range when the conditions are right to give it another go. Gonna put the rifle in the cold and have a batch of ammo at ambient temp and a batch in a "cooler" with hand warming packets and try them both. I'll obviously record the ambient temp but I am also going to get the temp of the ammo in the "cooler". Hopefully this will tell me if it is the ammo or weapon system that is making the change.

I had an FN A4, IIRC, that was doing this exact same thing. I contacted FN and they sent me an A3G to try and it was performing exactly the same. Again, IIRC, there was not much velocity change in those rifles.

Guy at Hornady said he thought the cold was affecting the rifle. I just don't see how. Accuracy International, USO SN3 Tpal combo. The front lug area has even been professionally bedded to remove any stress in the action when torqued properly to 89 in/lbs.

Will advise!

 

[BallCoeff_606]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usmcsniperone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cold really does effect people differently. I have taken 4 or 5 different buddies out night hunting in Jan and Feb here in upstate NY over the years. I only have one of them that has stuck with it. When your eyelids freeze together and your a half mile from your truck at 0200 in the morning trudging through the snow drifts wearing 5 layers of clothes, humping a pack with all your gear, 4 spare batteries for your light, rifle, ammo, decoy and wearing snowshoes sometimes even I wonder WTF am I doing.
[...]</div></div>

Every winter day for 16 years, on the way to school and back

. It was a whole new experience walking backwards against the wind all the way home to the students apartments too, after the study hall closed at 1 am.

Anyway, the only equipment problem I've seen on -30 all-day hunts is a slow firing pin not hitting the primer hard enough to fire a cartridge. As already mentioned, cleaning and lubing with graphite is the answer.

Bullet trajectory is lower/slower too, due to less punch from the powder and thicker air. However the DA effect would not be unexpected and should already be calculated into your dope cards. My rule of thumb is use 500 feet less than measured DA for each 15 degrees C change in powder temp.

People I know just hang rifles up on a tree outside the tent or cabin all night, which keeps them nice and cold and dry. If you bring them inside, not only is rust and frozen condensation the next morning a problem, but freeze/thaw cycles aren't the best thing for scopes either. An air-tight plastic bag is necessary put firearms in, if you bring them inside to heat them up for whatever reason.

A dangerous problem is ice or compacted snow and dirt blocking the barrel muzzle. That happens when snow falls off trees into the barrel when the rifle is carried over the shoulder muzzle-up, or worse yet when carried muzzle-down and you inadvertently sit or fall downward into the ground. Latex finger-bandage protectors are the best thing to slip over the muzzle in freezing weather to avoid problems. (You could also use the small guage condoms which are apparently very common south of the 49th parallel, too...). The bullet will just blast through it without noticing. Never tried in on a muzzle-brake though.

Other than that, the worst is shooting glasses or shades fogging up whenever you stop moving. If you're stalking, and get down beside deadfall or over stix to aim, by the time you've got your breathing controlled and are ready to pull the trigger, you can't see a damn thing anymore.

If you stop moving, you'll chill off in 5-10 minutes. 20 minutes not moving will start to become unbearable. If you're dressed warm enough to sit still, then you'll cook and sweat when walking, especially through deep snow or over steep terrain. Fingers, nose, cheeks, toes freeze quick. Anytime they don't feel cold anymore when sitting still, then you've got a problem.

 

[BallCoeff_606]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[...] It was 17F outside this morning (feels like 6). The 7.3 F-350, even with block heater plugged in wasn't cranking. Had to hijack the wife's car. </div></div>

Shouldn't have that problem, even at -17. Gotta make sure you always have a relatively new battery with min 850 Ahr cold at 0, for diesels. There's thousands of welding trucks running around here in all the tarsands construction sites. Mostly diesel and most aren't run all night long anymore.

When I'm camping/hunting at -30 to -40 I idle the truck nice and warm every night before bedtime. Then again first thing after breakfast before hitting the trail. I won't do remote camps or horses at that temperature.

Also, always make sure you know what you're walking on, or driving the sled on. One guy in the crew I hunted with several years back fell through a beaver dam late one afternoon, at -20. Soaking wet, the character nearly froze before he got back to camp.

As far as metal fatigue and failure goes, it almost never happens, because the right material is selected and used for products sold or made here.

 

[sinister]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Turns out it was my glow plug relay. Got a 15volt setup and she fires up like noon in summer.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Conditions were right today to try this theory out!

Preface
Chronograph
Accuracy International AE 308
USO SN3 Tpal 3.2x17
Hornady 168gr TAP Amax (Factory Load)

17* F
Wind 1-3 from 8:00
Humidity 72%
Dew Point 12* F
Altitude 750 ft ASL
Density Altitude -2400

Object of the test - Test ammo for POI variations at different temps.

Rifle was subjected to ambient temp (17*) for several minutes. 10 rounds of ammo was subjected to ambient temp and 10 rounds of ammo was placed inside a cooler containing Hot Hands (Chemical hand-warmers). I also placed a towel between the hand-warmers and the ammo as a sort of barrier.

My zero was left at 3/4 minutes up from my last outing (see post above for explanation).

After setting up the chrono and logging all of my information I started the test with a Cold Bore Shot.

I followed this up with 2 5-shot groups using the ammo at the ambient temp 17*.

I then went to the cooler and loaded up the mags with 10 rounds of the ammo kept in it. Temp inside the cooler 73*. I left the mags inside the cooler for a few minutes to let the actual mags get to that temp and to let the gun cool from the previous shots.

I then proceeded to shoot 2 5-shot groups using the warm ammo!

Oh yeah, I chronographed all of the rounds fired too!

After doing this @ 100 yards I backed up and did it all again at 200 yards.

I think Pictures will tell the tale better than I can in words!

Ambient Temp

<span style="font-weight: bold">100 Yards</span>

All targets are 2" Circles measured on the outside edge of the black circles.

Cold Bore - Ammo at 17* F

Shots 1-5 - Ammo at 17* F

Shots 6-10 - Ammo at 17* F

Shots 11-15 - Ammo from Cooler @ 73*

Shots 16-20 - Ammo from Cooler @ 73*

Hmmmm! Not much of a change in POI!

<span style="font-weight: bold">200 Yards </span> Sight Adjustment - 2 IPHY Up! My usual 200 yard adjustment!

Shots 1-5 - Ammo at 17* F

Shots 6-10 - Ammo at 17* F

Evidently I'm out of picture space here, so 2nd post to follow!

Chronograph info - Ammo at ambient temp (17* F) averaged 2629 FPS
Ammo from the cooler @ 73* averaged 2662 FPS. Obviously there is a difference but there appears to be little POA/POI @ 100 yards. 200 seems to be a different story though. Obviously my group size opened up as well with a cold gun and warm ammo!

Take it FWIW!

 

[2clicks]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

The suspense... I can't take it anymore! That was a great idea by the way trying both warm and cold Bullets.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Continuation of post from above!

<span style="font-weight: bold">200 Yards</span>

Shots 11-15 - Ammo from Cooler @ 73*

Shots 16-20 - Ammo from Cooler @ 73*

Yes they are all there! Two shots in the upper right hole!


Overall Target @ 100 yards

Overall Target @ 200 Yards

Not sure what else I am forgetting, other than Chrono information, but I will add it when I get a chance.

Here's something I forgot! This is a pic of the Kestrel from inside the Cooler with the warm Ammo!

 

[CMH]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went shooting about a month ago and it was 70. Dude I froze my butt off. </div></div>

Don't sweat it too much man. If it froze off at 70, it probably wasn't much to write home about anyhow.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

What kind of gloves do you guys use in the cold. I was shooting the other day right at about 0 deg F with 12-15mph winds...and I had to stop 'cause I couldn't feel the trigger any more.

guess I could have used the hand warmers

If I put gloves on, even thin ones I can't get my trigger finger in the proper position to get straight back on the trigger...

Just wondering what you guys are using.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I was wearing the fleece lined SealSkins! More than warm enough for the short range trip. I also have a pair that are not fleece lined that I wear when training on our combat courses in the winter time. A lot of move movement so it's much easier to stay warm. They fit tight enough for good dexterity! Probably not as HS/LD as what you'll find others wearing!

 

[wisam]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

To answer Frogman's question, my approach is kind of unconventional, but it works very well for me. I wear the Mercury Mittens made by Black Diamond. http://www.backcountry.com/black-diamond-mercury-mitten-mens

Take the shell off of you’re right mitten (assuming you’re right handed). The liner under the shell is a mitten with a separate trigger finger. The gloves are very warm and I find them comfortable without chemical warmers even at -40 assuming a moderate activity level. With a lower amount of activity, I use heaters at around -10.

I got the Mittens in an XL so that I can fit a thin pair of liner gloves underneath. The reason is that when you need to remove the mittens for dexterity, you still have some protection especially if it‘s windy. The trigger finger part of the liner is pretty bulky and a tight squeeze in my trigger guard, so it doesn’t allow for an ideal trigger pull, but with a little bit of concentration, I haven’t found it to hurt my groups. If you have a very light trigger, you will have to be careful with bulky gloves like these though.

Also, wearing a warm coat is just as important to keeping you’re hands warm as wearing warm gloves. If the temperature approaches zero, I wear a heavy down coat with a hood as well a warm pair of down or Primaloft pants. I find this combination to be warm enough that I don’t need gloves down to nearly zero as long as there is no wind and I’m in the sun. As the sun gets lower, have to put gloves on.

Also, it’s amazing how much warmer you stay if you stay moderately active. Just walking back and forth between the targets and the firing position rather than driving or ATVing will keep you much warmer.

I usually shoot long range in Northern Mn and I actually prefer shooting in the cold to the summer. Something satisfying about checking the range sign in sheet during a cold snap and seeing you are the first guy there in a week.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Thanks guys,

I tried the seal skins before, but my hands still got cold and I couldn't feel the trigger well enough...

I think I'm gonna try a light weight glove liner inside some mittens and see how that fairs..

It's freaking cold out here sometimes.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I've had good results with thin polypro liners under the sealskin gloves.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I did some cold weather chrono checks on my 30-06 handloads a couple winters back.

The load is RL22 under a moly'd 208 AMax.

At 70F, velocity at 30 feet from muzzle is 2720 fps

At -20F velocity at 30 feet from muzzle is 2620 fps.

On the -20F check, I left the rifle and ammo outside overnight, to make sure it was fully cooled.

100 fps from cold, plus denser air, would definitely show up downrange, not too much within 300 yards or so.

I lacked the "motivation" to actually shoot come-ups at extended range, at -20F. Maybe I'll get it done one of these winters.

 

[wisam]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

One more thing frogman, check out Alaska Mountaineering on Spenard just north of the REI. I would imagine that you would have a much better chance of finding good cold weather gear there than at the Sportsman's Warehouse. You are from Eagle river right?

 

[45.308]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of gloves do you guys use in the cold. I was shooting the other day right at about 0 deg F with 12-15mph winds...and I had to stop 'cause I couldn't feel the trigger any more.

guess I could have used the hand warmers

If I put gloves on, even thin ones I can't get my trigger finger in the proper position to get straight back on the trigger...

Just wondering what you guys are using. </div></div>

I wore mostly Monzella fleece, I hot rodded them with SeamGrip by adding dots to the fingers, thumb and palm to add some friction gripping. I never wore a glove while on the trigger and I could get through a 10 shot mag / group with no issue to cold bare handed on my rifle even at -30.

The best glove I ever used was from CloudVeil but they are no longer made, OR had a similar pair too but also no longer made. The closest glove now is:

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/mountain/gloves/torque

I could do just about any task with them on and still have warm hands down around -30 or so.

I always found very thick gloves would aid in cold hands. Why? because they are so thick any skill or task you have to do the thick gloves would make me squeeze my hands hard that decreases blood flow. Plus, the thick fingers separate the fingers, if you want a very thick glove go with a mitten. I had warm hands at -30 wearing light gloves and some of the coldest hands I ever had was wearing super thick guide gloves.

If you use fleece inside a mitt shell, the thicker the fleece glove the less warm they will be due to the separation of the fingers from each other.

 

[SoftWingPrimerDot308]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

I would service the rifle immediately after using , since the powder and gunk is more likely to stick to internal parts.
Full service , not just a bolt cleaning...

 

[northern shooter]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

All i got to say is dress warm and have fun

range is 915 meters and the temp was about - 35 degrees celcius

 

[mmtuning]

Re: Shooting in extreme cold

Thick shooters mat, a nice wind free hide, neoprene or wool gloves, and lube only with oil or graphite. No grease. of course this depends on how low of temps. Also, expect your rig to shoot low, your finger to lose feeling, and your scope to fog up. If you get all this under control, you have her licked.