Shooting off of props

[SanPatHogger]

I shot my first rifle match Sunday.
Holy cow was it awesome.
Learned a lot. The biggest being I have no experience shooting off of props.
The shingled roof prop kicked my but hard the first time. I tried laying down on it and shooting prone, That sucked, massive wobble. Kneeling and bending/hunching forward was a lot better the second time on the roof, but still not good.
Second prop that beat me was the "bad robot" Its a square tube barricade with 45° arms coming down off the sides. Both times beat me up. Tried kneeling the fist times and I think I stood up the second, not quite sure. Huge wobble both times.
So now I've got my tripod and ladder in the front yard and just trying to get steady, Looking at a piece of chain about 100 yards away. Started with a wobble probably bigger than a 8x11 paper. wrapped the sling around my arm and it helped a little. Spread my feet and leaned forward, helped more.
I don't have a real shooting bag, just a pillow wrapped with parachord. On one knee or both knees I put the pillow under my trigger arm and it didn't help.

Wondering what others are doing to get steady.
Any advise?
I feel I did pretty good for my first time out. I cleaned one stage and felt pretty good.
I want to go back in a couple months and kick ass.

 

[Alpine 338]

I avoid matches with unrealistic wobbly barricades. Once you find a piece of gear to help steady your shot, some asshat match director bans that equipment.

But if you're having fun doing it, go for it.

Now you mentioned roof top stages, as long as they are rock solid, that's a good stage prop. Both sloping up and/or down. I've shot those with tripods, bigger bags, longer bipod legs, etc. I guess it all depends on the materials used on the roof (most likely asphalt shingles?), angle or pitch of the roof, and of course your time limit. That will dictate what equipment to use. I think using a larger bag, like a pump pillow or bigger is probably the quickest solution, at least for me. Some may go with a game changer type bag that has heavy fill, which would be a good solution if placed at the peak of the roof. But then again, I've shot some matches where your not allowed to place gear at the top edge of the roof, or let it overhang, other than resting the rifle itself. ...and don't get me started on stupid rules.

 

[mbeavers1]

A real bag will help dramatically. Big fan of the Weibad Whisky Charlie Mini Fortune Cookie. You will get a wide range of opinions on bags. Go to the next match and watch what others are using and ask to try. I guarantee everyone will loan you gear to try. DONT buy before you try or you will be right back on here selling it.

 

[Sheldon N]

Definitely get a proper shooting bag designed for positional shooting. One of the heavier fill bags is your best bet. I like the Armageddon Gear schmedium heavy fill (as do a lot of the top shooters) or the standard game changer, and there are similar options from Weibad that are good too. I don't find that the pillow-under-the-arm bags do much to improve stability, except in a few very specific scenarios. Most shooters do not use slings for the PRS game.

Second thing is practice, mainly learning what body positions allow you to be stable and relaxed at the same time (natural point of aim/NPA) from all possible barricade and shooting heights. Having those in your muscle memory from practice will allow you to quickly get into position and get stable with just your body, your rifle and a single shooting bag.

As far as showing up next time and kicking ass, I like your ambition! It's a tall order though, there are some good shooters out there who have practiced a lot. Now is a great time to get some preliminary training on PRS style competitions so that you start your practice with the right fundamentals and good habits. There are some good online resources as well as in person classes from a number of different sources, but that's probably a subject for a different thread.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Get to a Frank or Rifles Only or similar fundamentals course ASAP.

Then look into something like the jtac class that’s more competition oriented.

If you want to be competitive, you first need a very intimate knowledge on fundamentals. Then you need to know how to creat stable positions.

Picking up a wiebad or AG bag designed for this is a must. Do that and build yourself a prs barricade.

You can do almost all the training you need with a prs barricade and 100yds.

 

[acudaowner]

the last props you will ever need .

guaranteed to steady your nerves in any event lol day or night they got you covered . also they double as a great shooting bag or stress relief squeeze object . shame no squeaky noise like a dog toy but for you .

 

[SanPatHogger]

Get to a Frank or Rifles Only or similar fundamentals course ASAP.

Then look into something like the jtac class that’s more competition oriented.

If you want to be competitive, you first need a very intimate knowledge on fundamentals. Then you need to know how to creat stable positions.

Picking up a wiebad or AG bag designed for this is a must. Do that and build yourself a prs barricade.

You can do almost all the training you need with a prs barricade and 100yds.

I have Franks book. Read it front to back and have gone back into it in some sections.
I eat breakfast on Sunday mornings with a couple guys why have spent a lot of time at Rifles Only. Shot with them a few times now.

It was a 22 match I shot, targets from 62 to 110 yards. I didn't dial anything, shot 100% off the reticle with a 50 yard zero.
Shooting prone I can make 1/2 inch dots disappear from 50-110. Shooting positions is the big thing for me.
I am going to look into bags. I've seen quite a few now. I would rather be able to shoot well without them, I get that they are a tool and help. Outside of a match I probably wouldnt be walking through the woods or going on a hike with bags. Part of going to the match is just to better myself. I'm usually not a competitive person, but I came in 25th out of 40+ shooters my first time out. I know with some practice I'll move up.

I shot a carbine match a few years ago, 3 little indoor pistol matches since November and now this 22 rifle match. This is getting addicting.

 

[SanPatHogger]

the last props you will ever need .

guaranteed to steady your nerves in any event lol day or night they got you covered . also they double as a great shooting bag or stress relief squeeze object . shame no squeaky noise like a dog toy but for you .

Who doesn't love that?!

 

[roostercogburn98]

I avoid matches with unrealistic wobbly barricades.

Why?

 

[Baron23]

the last props you will ever need .

guaranteed to steady your nerves in any event lol day or night they got you covered . also they double as a great shooting bag or stress relief squeeze object . shame no squeaky noise like a dog toy but for you .

But she just won't lay down on that roof top prop with the peak in her cleavage. Selfish bitch! haha

And is that the shmedium or full size there? Heavy fill or ??

LOL

 

[hlee]

Why?

Some don't appreciate the "shoot off the wobbly end of the open aluminum gate while holding one foot off the ground" type stages.

 

[Alpine 338]

Some don't appreciate the "shoot off the wobbly end of the open aluminum gate while holding one foot off the ground" type stages.

Exactly. Why waste the shot, when in reality (real life) you would move over to the solid post holding the gate. Or take the shot off the hood of your truck, if it's there.

Stupid rules and stages beyond reality, created by lazy match directors with no creativity, for sheepish competitors with no imagination are not for me.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Some don't appreciate the "shoot off the wobbly end of the open aluminum gate while holding one foot off the ground" type stages.

So I’m other words, if it’s not a guaranteed hit, it’s not worth trying? I don’t shoot comps, just trying to see the reason behind the original statement I quoted. I figured wobbly or odd obstacles would be a great chance to test your fundamentals, but maybe I’m crazy.

 

[PB&J.]

So I’m other words, if it’s not a guaranteed hit, it’s not worth trying? I don’t shoot comps, just trying to see the reason behind the original statement I quoted. I figured wobbly or odd obstacles would be a great chance to test your fundamentals, but maybe I’m crazy.

There is a line between building a position and making it work, even if it is a bit awkward vs a hail mary from some dumb shit you'd never take a shot off of in the field.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

So I’m other words, if it’s not a guaranteed hit, it’s not worth trying? I don’t shoot comps, just trying to see the reason behind the original statement I quoted. I figured wobbly or odd obstacles would be a great chance to test your fundamentals, but maybe I’m crazy.

There’s never going to be a right answer. Well, there was at one point. Any “odd” positions at a match were copies of real life scenarios that happened in a mil/le/hunting scenario. Actual scenarios that were mirrored *after* they actually happened IRL.

The sun has set on those days mostly. Things have evolved away from training/practical and more into a hobby (and there’s nothing wrong with that). So many of the scenarios that are considered “out there” have now been thought up by people just trying something different. Sometimes those scenarios cross the line of skill and become all luck or almost impossible. And there’s a whole other conversation on the pros and cons of that.

And a prop might be reasonable but becomes unreasonable when you change something like target size. You can have the best fundamentals on the planet, but if the target is smaller than what can’t be accomplished on the prop, it’s all luck.

Then there’s gear and practicality argument. In 2022 with tripods being so versatile and stable, one could make an argument for example that I would never take a shot like I am below in the field. I would simply either use the tripod to support the entire rifle or at a minimum use it as rear support.

So, the answer like most things is “it depends.”

 

[roostercogburn98]

There’s never going to be a right answer. Well, there was at one point. Any “odd” positions at a match were copies of real life scenarios that happened in a mil/le/hunting scenario. Actual scenarios that were mirrored *after* they actually happened IRL.

The sun has set on those days mostly. Things have evolved away from training/practical and more into a hobby (and there’s nothing wrong with that). So many of the scenarios that are considered “out there” have now been thought up by people just trying something different. Sometimes those scenarios cross the line of skill and become all luck or almost impossible. And there’s a whole other conversation on the pros and cons of that.

And a prop might be reasonable but becomes unreasonable when you change something like target size. You can have the best fundamentals on the planet, but if the target is smaller than what can’t be accomplished on the prop, it’s all luck.

Then there’s gear and practicality argument. In 2022 with tripods being so versatile and stable, one could make an argument for example that I would never take a shot like I am below in the field. I would simply either use the tripod to support the entire rifle or at a minimum use it as rear support.

So, the answer like most things is “it depends.”

That makes absolute perfect sense. Position and distance should dictate target size, unless it is a “challenge” or some kind of tie breaker style shot. If that is the case, then crazy is better, be it a shot of chance or a real challenge to test a shooters skill level. I know a lot of shooters won’t agree with a tie coming down to a chance, but it is that anyway. There is always a chance something will happen. Maybe even offered as a side game with a special prize or award for that one event. Having an unrealistic shot would deter some shooters, I can see that. I’ve never been in the mindset of not trying something just because it seems unreasonable, so that’s my question of why. Like I stated earlier, I don’t shoot comps, and 95% of my shots are off a gator hood, tripod with hog saddle, or a tank trap, so wobbly or off kilter platforms are more normal for me. In the end, it is an individual choice on what to shoot or not if you are a paying shooter I guess.

 

[hlee]

Some people look to competition as the cheapest training one can get for practical shooting. Even lowlight has said the same thing. Others accept PRS/NRL as the game that they are. As such, the shots do not need to be 'realistic.'

"Why the F am I shooting off of this bouncy-ass gate, when the hinge post is right there? And, I can see the target better from the post to boot."
"Because it is in the stage description."
"That's retarded. I would never shoot at a coyote at this distance from that support."
"You're not shooting at a coyote. It's a steel target."
"The steel target is, literally, a coyote silhouette."

One of the most fun stages I have shot was a 'tic tac toe' board hung from a central axle. You had 2 minutes to make 9 hits on a 12" circle from 400 yards. 3 from any of the 3 lowest boxes, 3 from the middle, and 3 from any of the top boxes. The prop would try to rotate back and forward as you put pressure into and away from the 'support.' The trick that I found was pull the prop back with your support hand so that the gun and scope were wedged between the top and bottom of the box. Not that easy of a feat running a bolt gun. Advantage semi auto. I dropped 2 points on that. First shot went wide on a blown wind call. The last shot sailed as my foot slipped as I broke the trigger.

 

[UpSideDown]

I've never shot competitive rifle, but the best thing I ever did for my shooting skill was to start shooting USPSA handgun. All of my shooting improved from that. I don't know if competitive rifle carries the same general improvements, but there's a lot to be gained in my opinion as a novice shooter by doing a few competitions and hanging out with the guys.

 

[JustSendit]

Exactly. Why waste the shot, when in reality (real life) you would move over to the solid post holding the gate. Or take the shot off the hood of your truck, if it's there.

Stupid rules and stages beyond reality, created by lazy match directors with no creativity, for sheepish competitors with no imagination are not for me.

I think that’s all apart of competition shooting.

I haven’t rapidly moved from my AR to my shotgun then my pistol, knocking out a few clays in the process. Also haven’t had the opportunity to lay prone for 20min and shoot 10 scored shots with wind flags in reality either. Or memorized the colors of some shit I was about to shoot.

It’s competition. I think MDs everywhere have to challenge their shooters beyond just reality.

 

[Newbie2020]

I've never shot competitive rifle, but the best thing I ever did for my shooting skill was to start shooting USPSA handgun. All of my shooting improved from that. I don't know if competitive rifle carries the same general improvements, but there's a lot to be gained in my opinion as a novice shooter by doing a few competitions and hanging out with the guys.

Frank @lowlight always says competition is the cheapest training you can find. Because you have to play by somebody else’s rules. Plus you’re on the clock. So it makes you apply all those fundamentals you’ve developed on your own time with the added element of a funky angled barricade and a timer.

 

[KnowNothing256]

A lot of fair points here, I’ll add that @CaylenW and @velayo_0317 have said you can make challenging courses of fire and other exercises that develop the real-world skills, without the need for “just because” hard stuff. They were talking about training snipers as I recall, but I expect the same can be said for comps.

On the other hand, it’s probably fair to say that comps need to produce more novel content than the military, just because there’s so much more participant recirculation in the comp scene versus military curricula. So maybe the comparison doesn’t quite hold.

 

[cas6969]

People have different ways of looking at things.
Actually doing it (in a match)= "Not real"
Doing something that mimics something else, that you never ever actually do= "Realistic"

That doesn't make any sense to me.

If you're doing it, it's realistic.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

People have different ways of looking at things.
Actually doing it (in a match)= "Not real"
Doing something that mimics something else, that you never ever actually do= "Realistic"

That doesn't make any sense to me.

If you're doing it, it's realistic.

Then we just change the debate to “should we be doing that.”

IE, shooting off vertically hanging ropes and such stuff.

 

[cas6969]

We should if it's fun!

 

[Alpine 338]

 

[SanPatHogger]

View attachment 7850390

That chick looks like Jennifer Grey
Red dawn on a unicycle?

 

[mikeshaw2]

I have Franks book. Read it front to back and have gone back into it in some sections.
I eat breakfast on Sunday mornings with a couple guys why have spent a lot of time at Rifles Only. Shot with them a few times now.

It was a 22 match I shot, targets from 62 to 110 yards. I didn't dial anything, shot 100% off the reticle with a 50 yard zero.
Shooting prone I can make 1/2 inch dots disappear from 50-110. Shooting positions is the big thing for me.
I am going to look into bags. I've seen quite a few now. I would rather be able to shoot well without them, I get that they are a tool and help. Outside of a match I probably wouldnt be walking through the woods or going on a hike with bags. Part of going to the match is just to better myself. I'm usually not a competitive person, but I came in 25th out of 40+ shooters my first time out. I know with some practice I'll move up.

I shot a carbine match a few years ago, 3 little indoor pistol matches since November and now this 22 rifle match. This is getting addicting.

I'm new at this too. I mostly shoor MARS matches because rimfire is LOTS less $$ than a 'big' rifle and ammo

I'm still so-so on the bag for the front, but am coming around. I DIYed a bag, but made it too big. Found the stuff for a 2nd bag, but found a small 'commercial' bag on sale, so I'll try that while making something like a Fortune Cookie next.

One of the matches had a target at 325yds. I couldn't dial so had to take a WAG on the elevations and missed. Lots.

I keep saying 'one of these days I'll figure this stuff out, but it isn't today!'

I just wish I knew people in NoVA that want to get together to practice between matches.

M

 

[Emerson0311]

I find that many of the positions and wobbly rests that I thought were gamy and dumb are actually not as terribly difficult to shoot well off of now, compared to when I sucked worse as a shooter. I think that’s why really good shooters don’t obsess too much about the gamy stuff, as long as the rules are applied equally. Just like boot camp and probably the high speed low drag schools, once you stop giving a shit and start concentrating on doing good work, the rest takes care of itself.

 

[308pirate]

Just like boot camp and probably the high speed low drag schools, once you stop giving a shit and start concentrating on doing good work, the rest takes care of itself.

You can extend that philosophy to everything in life........

 

[hlee]

You can extend that philosophy to everything in life........

And reduce your daily consumption of antacids and high blood pressure meds all at the same time...

 

[JaoeyP]

For shooting from props, barricades, etc my recipe is simple:

1. Get a good bag. My go to is Armageddon Gear Pint Size Game Changer, waxed canvas, heavy fill. The schmedium is also a great choice. I'm sure there are other good bags, these are the two I have personal experience with. Avoid bags that have any kind of rubber fill. I find these to be bouncy.

2. Alignment. Except for a very few instances, I want to be square to the target. I stay on two feet or two knees. If on my feet knees are locked out and I bend at the waist to lower my level. I want my position such that you could draw a line between my feet/knees and it would be 90 degrees to the target.

3. Rifle pushes into bag. Shoulders slightly forward of hips. Support hand grabs the front of the bag and grips the stock/chassis. If it's a ladder or barricade stage I may use my support hand to grip the scope and a vertical portion of the prop.

Try this out. Practice and play with it.

 

[SanPatHogger]

So I shot the same match again. Slightly bigger this time. 10 stages instead of 8. Different props. Got to shoot off a tank trap, always wanted to do that. Also shot off what they called a 1917, basically a big wooden ladder with a flat on top. Had a PRS barricade too. A couple guys let me shoot off their bags, one was smaller and felt like it was half full of lead shot. I was awesome.
I managed to have the high score on one stage off of the tank trap and tied with a few guys who cleared the same stage as me.

JaoeyP, I have tried several different positions and I think bending with my legs straight does work. Keeping square and even on both sides seems to be better. Kneeling on one knee or leaning and twisting does not work.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

So I shot the same match again. Slightly bigger this time. 10 stages instead of 8. Different props. Got to shoot off a tank trap, always wanted to do that. Also shot off what they called a 1917, basically a big wooden ladder with a flat on top. Had a PRS barricade too. A couple guys let me shoot off their bags, one was smaller and felt like it was half full of lead shot. I was awesome.
I managed to have the high score on one stage off of the tank trap and tied with a few guys who cleared the same stage as me.

JaoeyP, I have tried several different positions and I think bending with my legs straight does work. Keeping square and even on both sides seems to be better. Kneeling on one knee or leaning and twisting does not work.

What I normally tell people is to bend at the waist until it’s not comfortable. Then spread legs to get lower or back away a bit with your feet.

Once that becomes uncomfortable (we are all different) that’s the sign it’s time to go to a single or double kneeling or crouching.

If you have some physical limitations that will obviously change things.

If not, learn to shoot off each knee and double kneeling. You’ll have to be comfortable with all of it.

If you’re right handed and can get your knee high enough to support your right elbow (with or without a bag depending) then have your left knee down and right knee up.

If not, right handed people usually use their left leg to take off running or jump. So you’ll be faster with your left knee up and right knee down.

And as with standing, feet flat if possible and square to target.

 

[Baron23]

What I normally tell people is to bend at the waist until it’s not comfortable. Then spread legs to get lower or back away a bit with your feet.

Once that becomes uncomfortable (we are all different) that’s the sign it’s time to go to a single or double kneeling or crouching.

If you have some physical limitations that will obviously change things.

If not, learn to shoot off each knee and double kneeling. You’ll have to be comfortable with all of it.

If you’re right handed and can get your knee high enough to support your right elbow (with or without a bag depending) then have your left knee down and right knee up.

If not, right handed people usually use their left leg to take off running or jump. So you’ll be faster with your left knee up and right knee down.

And as with standing, feet flat if possible and square to target.

That picture makes both of my old knees ache! haha

 

[308pirate]

That picture makes both of my old knees ache! haha

You and me both.

The doc drained 15 ml out of my right knee two weeks ago after it became inflamed. Next USPSA match with a low port that I have to kneel for I think I'll take the misses and the failure to shoot at penalties

 

[Baron23]

The doc drained 15 ml out of my right knee two weeks ago after it became inflamed.

Oh shit....bet that was fun.

Did the Doc tell you "this won't hurt much" then drives a 16 penny nail (or feels like it) into your knee? haha

It always hurts....never believe them! haha

So, once drained...are you good to go or does it come back with activity/motion?

 

[308pirate]

Oh shit....bet that was fun.

Did the Doc tell you "this won't hurt much" then drives a 16 penny nail (or feels like it) into your knee? haha

It always hurts....never believe them! haha

So, once drained...are you good to go or does it come back with activity/motion?

I'm pretty pain tolerant and it took all I had, grinding my teeth together, to not scream.

I had swelling in the back of the knee as well. He prescribed a pack of prednisolone and a week after finishing I feel great. This weekend I mowed the lawn and shot a pistol match with zero issues. I did wear a knee brace for the match as a precaution.

There's still something wrong because the knee will click on occasion. I have an MRI scheduled for next week.

 

[hlee]

Clicking? Meniscus damage…

 

[308pirate]

Clicking? Meniscus damage…

X rays were clean. We'll see what the MRI says. I'm betting you're right because the clicking comes from the front of the knee.

 

[mikeshaw2]

For shooting from props, barricades, etc my recipe is simple:

1. Get a good bag. My go to is Armageddon Gear Pint Size Game Changer, waxed canvas, heavy fill. The schmedium is also a great choice. I'm sure there are other good bags, these are the two I have personal experience with. Avoid bags that have any kind of rubber fill. I find these to be bouncy.

2. Alignment. Except for a very few instances, I want to be square to the target. I stay on two feet or two knees. If on my feet knees are locked out and I bend at the waist to lower my level. I want my position such that you could draw a line between my feet/knees and it would be 90 degrees to the target.

3. Rifle pushes into bag. Shoulders slightly forward of hips. Support hand grabs the front of the bag and grips the stock/chassis. If it's a ladder or barricade stage I may use my support hand to grip the scope and a vertical portion of the prop.

Try this out. Practice and play with it.

So on Sat I found myself on the tips of a tank trap stage. Not having high hopes based on past tips of a tank trap stages, I put my new bag down and plopped the rifle down on that. Leaned into the bag and hey! whaddya know?! I was just about as solid as if I were at the range! The surprise didn't last long because I needed to make shots. I was equally stable on all 3 tips, and had a little issue with positioning on the valley.

Can't say I cleaned the stage, but it was a new best for me.

...then shot like poo at the Sunday match

M

 

[SanPatHogger]

So the best way to learn to shoot off props?....
Is probably experimenting and practicing shooting off props!

Buddy came out last nigh and we went through some scraps/pallets/stuff that looked like it could be turned into props.
We built out own "rooftop" and a barricade. We will hang some ropes/chains, buckets and pipes from our barricade and weve also got enough stuff to put together an ugly tank trap. Also have some leftover shingles to put on our "roof"
I have seen this stuff for years, finally got a chance to shoot off of them, now I've got some. Pretty sweet.

 

[mikeshaw2]

So the best way to learn to shoot off props?....
Is probably experimenting and practicing shooting off props!

Buddy came out last nigh and we went through some scraps/pallets/stuff that looked like it could be turned into props.
We built out own "rooftop" and a barricade. We will hang some ropes/chains, buckets and pipes from our barricade and weve also got enough stuff to put together an ugly tank trap. Also have some leftover shingles to put on our "roof"
I have seen this stuff for years, finally got a chance to shoot off of them, now I've got some. Pretty sweet.

View attachment 7890268
View attachment 7890278


View attachment 7890279

Soon as my silencer is out of NFA jail, I'll be doing similar stuff in my backyard

M