Gunsmithing Short action .284 Win "tactical"l build on a Shilen action/barrel
- Thread starter fryj00
- Start date
You don't have to neck turn or resize the Winchester....it's real 284 brass. Not 6.5-284 or something else.
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Although I have heard stories of the older Winchester brass being great, I haven't heard anything good about the newer stuff. I will still be using the Lapua for my .284. =)
Fryj00, you have a similar setup that I have. I'm running a 22" barrel with mrad brake, ptg bottom metal, manners stock but I'm running a remington long action. I plan on shooting 162 amax and 168 hornady bthp. I'm not planning on RL-17 though. I'm gonna try 4831sc and h4350. Have you tried h4350 to see if you can get better accuracy while maintaining close to the same velocity?
I have tried 4831SC and the loads were fairly accurate but just too damned slow. (~2600) I have not tried 4350 yet. Btw, you do know that the 162 AMAX has been discontinued? At least for now. Look at the 168 Berger Classic Hunter...wicked good BC and short OAL.
Yeah, I know. Unfortunate but I have managed to pick up a few boxes and I see them occasionally for sale. After they run out, ill run the bthp and since ill run a oal of about 3.1-3.2 I'm not concerned with running a short bullet.
I'm going to try h4831 to see what accuracy I can get but like you said, they'll shoot slow as hell and ill move on. I have heard good things about h4350 in a .284. Its almost as fast as the RL-17 and almost as accurate as h4831 and lets not forgot, a lot less temp sensitive then RL-17. Ill probably settle on that and stick with it.
Come to think of it, since length isn't an issue, why not run the 180 SMK's? They are cheaper than the Bergers and really slick BC. Of course, that assumes a fast twist barrel...
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Its a 1-9 twist, it should work but my logic was that it should be better to push the 162's fast rather then the 180's slow. I'm sure ill try both, just gotta score some sierra 180's.
Quinc, at this point, I would use the Winchester even if I had to replace it every few firings. For one, it's waaaaay cheaper than 6.5-284 Lapua brass and these days my time is worth more than my money. I would love to not have to put countless hours into brass prep.
This has been put out there in various previous topics, but I figured I would throw it in here since the issue has come up.
Donuts from Necking Up 6.5-284 Lapua Brass!
Learned this one the hard way. Took my new 6.5-284 Lapua Brass, ran it through a Sinclair Gen II 7mm Expander Die, and through a Redding Type S Neck Sizing Die (minus the Expander Ball), and thought that I was ready to go. I was loading Berger 180 Hybrids, and I thought that I was feeling some extra resistance at the end of the stroke seating them. I checked the inside and outside diameter of the neck with everything that I had, but could not find anything.
I had seen an earlier post about detecting Donuts with a Pin Gage.
I ordered some, and then using them to check the inside diameter it was extremely obvious that there was a Donut on the inside at the Neck & Shoulder Junction. The Pin would easily pass into the neck, but it would stop or hangup when it came to the Shoulder Junction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQkpmhCtQ0&feature=youtu.be
That meant it was time to try and figure out how I was going to deal with it?
OPTION 1 - Work the Brass
I took the Redding S Neck Die and put the Expander Ball back in it, along with a bushing that would give me a finished inside neck diameter of .282 . I then ran the brass through it a couple of times. I then pulled the Expander Ball back off, and ran it through the die with just the Bushing. After doing that, I was able to get the Pin Gage to pass cleanly through the necks without any type of resistance or hangup. Apparently the Donut was either smoothed out, or pushed more to the outside of the neck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMxS3eBtko0&feature=youtu.be
OPTION 2 - Turn the Necks, Inside & Out
I took a Forester Neck Turning Tool, and also put the Inside Reamer in it, and turned some of the necks. This technique cuts the inside and outside of the neck at the same time, so it insures that any Donuts are completely removed.
This completely removed the Donut, and gave what was the most consistent neck thickness and tension as best as I could measure it.
I then tried to compare the results of the brass that was "worked" versus the brass that had the necks turned. I was not able to see a huge difference in the group size between the two. The turned necks may have performed better, but they were close enough that it was not easy to detect a big difference.
For me, if it is normal everyday shooting, I will just "work the brass". If it is a long range paper match, then I will use the brass that has had the necks turned.
Hopefully this will help someone else out there!
PS: I now use the Pin Gages on all of my Brass to check the consistency of the Neck Tension. It is amazing what I have found (loose necks, tight necks, inconsistent tension) since I have started using them.
Donuts from Necking Up 6.5-284 Lapua Brass!
Learned this one the hard way. Took my new 6.5-284 Lapua Brass, ran it through a Sinclair Gen II 7mm Expander Die, and through a Redding Type S Neck Sizing Die (minus the Expander Ball), and thought that I was ready to go. I was loading Berger 180 Hybrids, and I thought that I was feeling some extra resistance at the end of the stroke seating them. I checked the inside and outside diameter of the neck with everything that I had, but could not find anything.
I had seen an earlier post about detecting Donuts with a Pin Gage.
I ordered some, and then using them to check the inside diameter it was extremely obvious that there was a Donut on the inside at the Neck & Shoulder Junction. The Pin would easily pass into the neck, but it would stop or hangup when it came to the Shoulder Junction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQkpmhCtQ0&feature=youtu.be
That meant it was time to try and figure out how I was going to deal with it?
OPTION 1 - Work the Brass
I took the Redding S Neck Die and put the Expander Ball back in it, along with a bushing that would give me a finished inside neck diameter of .282 . I then ran the brass through it a couple of times. I then pulled the Expander Ball back off, and ran it through the die with just the Bushing. After doing that, I was able to get the Pin Gage to pass cleanly through the necks without any type of resistance or hangup. Apparently the Donut was either smoothed out, or pushed more to the outside of the neck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMxS3eBtko0&feature=youtu.be
OPTION 2 - Turn the Necks, Inside & Out
I took a Forester Neck Turning Tool, and also put the Inside Reamer in it, and turned some of the necks. This technique cuts the inside and outside of the neck at the same time, so it insures that any Donuts are completely removed.
This completely removed the Donut, and gave what was the most consistent neck thickness and tension as best as I could measure it.
I then tried to compare the results of the brass that was "worked" versus the brass that had the necks turned. I was not able to see a huge difference in the group size between the two. The turned necks may have performed better, but they were close enough that it was not easy to detect a big difference.
For me, if it is normal everyday shooting, I will just "work the brass". If it is a long range paper match, then I will use the brass that has had the necks turned.
Hopefully this will help someone else out there!
PS: I now use the Pin Gages on all of my Brass to check the consistency of the Neck Tension. It is amazing what I have found (loose necks, tight necks, inconsistent tension) since I have started using them.
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Had the rifle out at Thunder Valley this weekend and finally got it to perform like I wanted though with a slow load. It shot a 5-shot bughole after zeroing, chrono'd it, and ran the dope in Applied Ballistics and the dope was good after one small adjustment. My partner and I won the Intimidator match so I was really pleased. The new spiked feet on my Atlas worked really well too. They stay planted in the dirt without digging in too far and the pod loads nicely without rolling over like those stupid articulated claw feet from Atlas.
-Bryan
-Bryan
Well I'm not finished with my development but the load I settled on last weekend was this:
Lapua 6.5-284 brass necked up, Fed 215 LM primer, 48.6 gr RL 17, Berger 168 classic hunter seated -0.040. Yielded 2650fps with 5 rounds in one ragged hole smaller than a dime.
I had mechanical issues that wasted some of the early load testing that I did so it's back to the drawing board. I'm going to be working on getting this load faster and I'm also going to work on a not-so-fast 180 SMK load.
In a moment of brilliance last night, I went to full length size one of my newly neck turned cases only to realize shortly thereafter that I had zero neck tension. Shit. Goodbye Forster FL die, hello Whidden bushing die. Just FYI, if you're going to neck turn but want to maintain the same neck tension, you will need to compensate for the removed metal on your case neck.
Decided to use up a box of 180 SMK's at Rayner's this past weekend. Threw together another quick load and it shot beautifully. Using 50gr of RL17, I was pushing them to 2700fps. Not impressive, I know but I was definitely enjoying the .660 BC, even at the slow speed. A full mil less wind correction at 1K (10mph) than my .308. Very happy with the performance of the new rifle so far. Now that the 180's are gone, I'm going back to work finding a fast load for the 168 Bergers. I hope to get that done before ASC.
Man that sucks, had plenty Homer Simpson "Doh!" moments myself. I have a the .284 Shehane Chamber, and Whidden stocks FL bushing dies for it. Forsters are fantastic dies (have 3 sets), but the Whidden's are incredible. Please keep me/us posted on your load development, I have been looking at pretty much the exact same combo you got, so any help in speeding up the development process is greatly appreciated. It looks to be a pretty promising combination, really curious what your findings are on the "temp. sensitivity" of RL-17. I got 6lbs of it specifically for this a few months ago, so I'm crossing my fingers.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Screwed my 284 pipe onto the short action M2013 today to see what it'd do.
Bartlein, 23.5" bolt face to crown.
Alpha type 3 magazines
Sierra 175smk
2.940" COAL
Bullet kisses @ 3.050" (jumping ~.110")
Good news is it shot everything really well, every shot regardless of powder or charge fell into less than a 3/4" group.
H4350:
50.5gr - 2705fps
51.0gr - 2740fps
51.5gr - 2775fps (max safe load)
H4831sc:
54.5gr - 2670fps (LOUD report, know from experience this is close to max, didn't bother testing more, too slow)
IMR4831:
51.0gr - 2600
51.5gr - 2630
52.0gr - 2665
52.5gr - 2700 (max safe load)
53.0gr - 2725 (slight but definite ejector marks)
Frankly, I think I'm done with this cartridge. A 7mm08 with 2" more barrel will match it, with ~5gr less powder and without the brass headaches.
The F class guys getting 2850(+) with 180s are running HIGH pressure and 30" barrels....and/or Reloder 17...
Bartlein, 23.5" bolt face to crown.
Alpha type 3 magazines
Sierra 175smk
2.940" COAL
Bullet kisses @ 3.050" (jumping ~.110")
Good news is it shot everything really well, every shot regardless of powder or charge fell into less than a 3/4" group.
H4350:
50.5gr - 2705fps
51.0gr - 2740fps
51.5gr - 2775fps (max safe load)
H4831sc:
54.5gr - 2670fps (LOUD report, know from experience this is close to max, didn't bother testing more, too slow)
IMR4831:
51.0gr - 2600
51.5gr - 2630
52.0gr - 2665
52.5gr - 2700 (max safe load)
53.0gr - 2725 (slight but definite ejector marks)
Frankly, I think I'm done with this cartridge. A 7mm08 with 2" more barrel will match it, with ~5gr less powder and without the brass headaches.
The F class guys getting 2850(+) with 180s are running HIGH pressure and 30" barrels....and/or Reloder 17...
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I also got some testing in this weekend. I was testing with non fire-formed brass so I would imagine that the speeds will slow down a touch when it formed. Interestingly enough, I shot a bug hole with what I would call my max safe load but also got a good group at a slower speed too. Here's what I got:
Slow group:
Berger 168 classic hunter seated to the lands (COAL 2.925)
51.5 gr RL-17
Fed 210 large rifle primer
~2815 fps
Fast group:
Berger 168 classic hunter seated to the lands (COAL 2.925)
52.5 gr RL-17
Fed 210 large rifle primer
~2900 fps
I got pretty clear ejector marks and the slightest bit of resistance on the bolt lift on a couple of shots with the fast group. I feel like it's right on the edge of "safe to use". This is really about what I expected to be able to achieve with this setup originally though I feel it was pretty lucky to land on a node at max pressure. Still, not sure I'm going to run it that way...might opt for the slower load to extend barrel and brass life.
This load yields 7.5 mils to 1K and 1.7 mils for a 10mph wind @ 1K. Not too shabby for a short action
Slow group:
Berger 168 classic hunter seated to the lands (COAL 2.925)
51.5 gr RL-17
Fed 210 large rifle primer
~2815 fps
Fast group:
Berger 168 classic hunter seated to the lands (COAL 2.925)
52.5 gr RL-17
Fed 210 large rifle primer
~2900 fps
I got pretty clear ejector marks and the slightest bit of resistance on the bolt lift on a couple of shots with the fast group. I feel like it's right on the edge of "safe to use". This is really about what I expected to be able to achieve with this setup originally though I feel it was pretty lucky to land on a node at max pressure. Still, not sure I'm going to run it that way...might opt for the slower load to extend barrel and brass life.
This load yields 7.5 mils to 1K and 1.7 mils for a 10mph wind @ 1K. Not too shabby for a short action
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Understand that I've little experience with Reloder 17...
That said, what I've heard from the folks I trust, is that RL17 is extremely "peaky" with pressure, and generally - when you see obvious signs of pressure, you're significantly over pressure. They say when you find real signs of pressure, you should back off at least a full grain (or more if ambient temperature is quite a bit less than the max temp you'll ever shoot in).
Again, this is not my personal experience - because I just haven't put in the time with that powder. Still, the advice above isn't just "here-say" from internet schmucks, either.
ETA: On my last 284 pipe, I did dabble with RL17. In that rifle, 52gr under a 162amax @ 2.950" left me with a big fat ejector mark.
That said, what I've heard from the folks I trust, is that RL17 is extremely "peaky" with pressure, and generally - when you see obvious signs of pressure, you're significantly over pressure. They say when you find real signs of pressure, you should back off at least a full grain (or more if ambient temperature is quite a bit less than the max temp you'll ever shoot in).
Again, this is not my personal experience - because I just haven't put in the time with that powder. Still, the advice above isn't just "here-say" from internet schmucks, either.
ETA: On my last 284 pipe, I did dabble with RL17. In that rifle, 52gr under a 162amax @ 2.950" left me with a big fat ejector mark.
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HE, I have heard this as well but it's kind of a curious statement to me. So we say it's over pressure, yet it doesn't beat on the brass like other powders do at similar pressure. So what are we saying? That when the brass looks fine, we're in danger of shearing lugs or rupturing barrels? I'm curious to know how this powder is so different in that regard.
-Bryan
I can guess...
I do know that RL17 is "special" because it is formulated to sustain high pressure longer than other powders.
If you compare two engines, one that is naturally aspirated with peak torque of say, 300lbft to a turbocharged one with peak torque of the same 300lbft, the "area under the (torque) curve" of the turbocharged engine will almost always be higher, because the torque curve is much flatter.
Even though maximum BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) of both engines is equal (hence equal peak torque), the turbocharged engine will accelerate a given car faster, as well as generate more heat and component wear.
Also: The *amount* of time a component is subjected to stress is at least as important to the amount of stress itself. For example, the stresses on human bodies during many "and they walked away" vehicular accidents are far in excess of the stresses that destroy parts of our bodies. However, because the stress was peaked for such a short amount of time, the injuries are much less severe.
I hope you see the analogy here. Essentially, because the RL17 maintains high pressure for longer, it exaggerates the fallout/ramifications of high pressure. 65,000psi from H4350 will not pound on components the same way 65,000psi from RL17 will.
As for the "peaky" nature of RL17 - I can only guess that just like other powders, heat and pressure increase burn speed and pressure. So when you're already operating at high pressure for a long time, it is crucial you don't let it operate at higher pressure for a long time.
Just theorizing here, not hard fact (in reference to the powder - the engine/occupant safety stuff is fact).
Short action .284 Win "tactical"l build on a Shilen action/barrel
Adding my experience, I'm shooting 162 AMAXs in Winchester brass over 51.5 RE17 at 2.950. I shot 52 and 52.3 to make sure I wasn't on the edge of pressure and saw nothing- smooth bolt lift, no ejector flow. I'm a good ways off the lands though.
If you see ejector flow with any powder, the smart thing to do is back off the load.
Adding my experience, I'm shooting 162 AMAXs in Winchester brass over 51.5 RE17 at 2.950. I shot 52 and 52.3 to make sure I wasn't on the edge of pressure and saw nothing- smooth bolt lift, no ejector flow. I'm a good ways off the lands though.
If you see ejector flow with any powder, the smart thing to do is back off the load.
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I guess I'm with Fry on this one, a bit confused. I can see it from both ways, what would really clear things up is someone to throw one of those strain gauges on their action and figure it out for us. anyone got one of those handy?? What is interesting is looking at Fry's 52.5 RL17 load in Quickload, the bullet travel at peak pressure (Pmax) is 2.30" and .507(millisec), while with say H4350 at the almost exact same pressure, the bullet travel is 1.70" and 0.449 (millisec), with H4831SC (same pressure) bullet travel is 1.79" and .449 (millisec). Honestly, I have no idea what that really means, but I did find it interesting that H4350 & H4831SC have almost identical characteristics, while RL17 is quite a bit different. I tried a few other powders (Norma, IMR, Viht) and RL17 still had a longer bullet travel/Millisec than any of them.
On a side note, Fry congrats on finding an accurate load or two. I will be trying out the same combo as soon as I get my rifle done in a few weeks, and let you know what I find out. Running your 52.5 load thru quickload, it is right on the fringe of being over pressure, any tiny tweak in the parameters and it could go either way. Not sure if that helps either.
Anyways, sorry for the post with a bunch of info that probably doesn't help clarify anything....
On a side note, Fry congrats on finding an accurate load or two. I will be trying out the same combo as soon as I get my rifle done in a few weeks, and let you know what I find out. Running your 52.5 load thru quickload, it is right on the fringe of being over pressure, any tiny tweak in the parameters and it could go either way. Not sure if that helps either.
Anyways, sorry for the post with a bunch of info that probably doesn't help clarify anything....
Shot Rayner's monthly match this past weekend for the first time. The wind was pretty tricky...mildly gusting up and down all day. Rifle/ammo did very well. Only one "WTF?" shot all day so I had good confidence in the rifle and went after some small targets with decent success. The highlights were that I went 3 for 3 on a 2" circle at 275 and 2 for 3 on the 1000 (12x12?), both hits stacked in the center. Thanks to Dave O for the good corrections on the misses. As usual, great match put on by some great folks.
I used the last of my non fire-formed brass for this match with the following load:
168 gr Berger Classic Hunter (.604/.309 BC)
Bullet seated -0.020"
51.5 gr Reloader 17
Fed 210 LR primer
~2850 fps
Testing has shown that my fire-formed cases have a lower velocity equal to about .5 grains of powder. Soooo, now that they are formed, I will need to bump up to ~52 grains to keep them running 2850ish.
To date, I have had zero issues with feeding, firing, or extraction.
-Bryan
I used the last of my non fire-formed brass for this match with the following load:
168 gr Berger Classic Hunter (.604/.309 BC)
Bullet seated -0.020"
51.5 gr Reloader 17
Fed 210 LR primer
~2850 fps
Testing has shown that my fire-formed cases have a lower velocity equal to about .5 grains of powder. Soooo, now that they are formed, I will need to bump up to ~52 grains to keep them running 2850ish.
To date, I have had zero issues with feeding, firing, or extraction.
-Bryan
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Shot ASC this past weekend with what will likely be my permanent load. It's on the hot side but is safe (at least up to 80 degrees) and shoots the freakin lights out. If the ammo gets wet or the temp goes up to 100 deg, it might develop sticky bolt syndrome. The Berger bullets are awesome...hunting bullets or not, they are truly match quality...which is good because it hurts every time I have to shell out money for them.
I have about 800 rds down the tube now and the throat has moved forward about .045" (woohoo, free case capacity!). However, I can attribute most of that erosion to two trips to the range where I got the barrel excessively hot with long, rapid strings of fire. It does not like this. I measure the throat before ASC, shot 100 rds there, and measured again when I got home and there was no change in the position of the lands. So it looks like I might get decent life out of her as long as I don't pound on her too hard.
168 gr Berger Classic Hunter (.604/.309 BC)
Bullet seated -0.025"
52 gr Reloader 17
Fed 210 LR primer
~2870 fps
2.950 COAL
-Bryan
I have about 800 rds down the tube now and the throat has moved forward about .045" (woohoo, free case capacity!). However, I can attribute most of that erosion to two trips to the range where I got the barrel excessively hot with long, rapid strings of fire. It does not like this. I measure the throat before ASC, shot 100 rds there, and measured again when I got home and there was no change in the position of the lands. So it looks like I might get decent life out of her as long as I don't pound on her too hard.
168 gr Berger Classic Hunter (.604/.309 BC)
Bullet seated -0.025"
52 gr Reloader 17
Fed 210 LR primer
~2870 fps
2.950 COAL
-Bryan
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I just pulled the barrel off mine to have it turned down to fit the Sentinel that should be here soon. It's the most tack driving rifle I've owned with 162's at 2985 at SA mag length. I hit 3 consecutive 2" targets at 400 yards on a KYL stage in a match a couple months ago, and that's with me driving it.
Quick update:
Me and my son both hit the mile target at Thunder Valley on Sunday for the first time. 22.5 mils elevation, .7 mils spin drift, .2 elev and .2 left for coriolis. Speed was a little off but my son hit it within a few rounds. We had the turret maxed out and holding 4 mils over on the reticle. We were also holding .5 mil out in free space for wind (spin and coriolis were dialed on).Hard to even see the hits on the steel. I was surprised just how consistent the rifle was at that distance. Building this rifle was worth every dime and every ounce of effort.
It's been a great project.
-Bryan
Me and my son both hit the mile target at Thunder Valley on Sunday for the first time. 22.5 mils elevation, .7 mils spin drift, .2 elev and .2 left for coriolis. Speed was a little off but my son hit it within a few rounds. We had the turret maxed out and holding 4 mils over on the reticle. We were also holding .5 mil out in free space for wind (spin and coriolis were dialed on).Hard to even see the hits on the steel. I was surprised just how consistent the rifle was at that distance. Building this rifle was worth every dime and every ounce of effort.
It's been a great project.
-Bryan
