Hey guys, just curious if there are certain cartridges that pair particularly well with short barrels? Or is it simply pick a cartridge and shave off x amount per inch? I am looking to build a 16 to 18-in bolt gun at around the 30-06 power level for around 0-300 yards, but we don't need to limit it just to that. I'm curious either way. It could be short action or long. So really I'm exploring all options. I saw a couple other threads but I believe they were just for short action stuff.
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Short barrel cartridges
- Thread starter snowplow
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Bit of a complex question.... i'm caught in the "analysis paralysis" phase trying to answer.
Are you requiring "power" for hunting purposes?
16-18" you're giving up very little out to 300y with a 308. 30-06 i'm not sure you'll get good enough burn to make it significantly better, but any improvement you'll see is probably not required at that range. Eg. Lets say, to ethically kill a deer at 300y, you need a 5 out of 10 on the "power" scale. With 30-06, you might hit an 8. With 308 you might hit a 6..... but both are above 5 so both will do the job.
When dropping the barrel, bullet choice becomes more and more critical. As you lose MV, you can definitely pick up a lot of energy you lose with that MV reduction by choosing either a High BC bullet, or a bullet that is optimised to mushroom at lower MVs. ME is one thing, but how much retained energy will it have at the distance you require is the bigger picture.
I LOVE the shorty guns. 17" MRAD, 18" XM-3 are cool as and are often on the range, but my 16.5" Creedmoor is KING.
We are fortunate enough to have a 1000y range open to us any time we want and what we are finding is that, choose a good bullet like the 185gr Berger Jug in 308 or the 147gr ELD-M, and impacts on MOA targets at 1000y are still entirely possible.
Below is a chart of our guns with their respective loads.
Yellow is transonic. Black is subsonic. The mil values are wind drift in a 10kph 3 O'Clock wind simply for comparison's sake and hit probability 1 cart/bullet vs another.
Are you requiring "power" for hunting purposes?
16-18" you're giving up very little out to 300y with a 308. 30-06 i'm not sure you'll get good enough burn to make it significantly better, but any improvement you'll see is probably not required at that range. Eg. Lets say, to ethically kill a deer at 300y, you need a 5 out of 10 on the "power" scale. With 30-06, you might hit an 8. With 308 you might hit a 6..... but both are above 5 so both will do the job.
When dropping the barrel, bullet choice becomes more and more critical. As you lose MV, you can definitely pick up a lot of energy you lose with that MV reduction by choosing either a High BC bullet, or a bullet that is optimised to mushroom at lower MVs. ME is one thing, but how much retained energy will it have at the distance you require is the bigger picture.
I LOVE the shorty guns. 17" MRAD, 18" XM-3 are cool as and are often on the range, but my 16.5" Creedmoor is KING.
We are fortunate enough to have a 1000y range open to us any time we want and what we are finding is that, choose a good bullet like the 185gr Berger Jug in 308 or the 147gr ELD-M, and impacts on MOA targets at 1000y are still entirely possible.
Below is a chart of our guns with their respective loads.
Yellow is transonic. Black is subsonic. The mil values are wind drift in a 10kph 3 O'Clock wind simply for comparison's sake and hit probability 1 cart/bullet vs another.
Thank you for the incredible answer. Honestly, it's probably six times more answer than I can understand. For my purposes, I currently hunt with a 18-in 308 in close bushy country. The round performs fine, but the gun package is excellent. In the past I've hunted a lot with a standard size 30-06. The gun performed excellent but the package was just okay. If I was to marry the two, with the packaging of the 16 to 18-in 308 and the firepower of a full size 30-06 if that's even possible, how would you go about getting there? I really don't know much about this stuff but I think I read for instance a cartridge that is necked down less is less affected by barrel shortening. This and other things got me thinking about a 338 Federal or 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen for instance. And then I said, I wonder if I can just chop a 30-06 and get close to a full size 308.
Got you;
This is purely anecdotal, i have no real world information for this; I'm using GRT to get an approximation so take this with a grain of salt.
This is based on my actual loads;
SPR 24" Barrel 308 with 178gr ELD-X real load MV = 2675fps
MRAD 17" Barrel 308 with 178gr ELD-X real load MV = 2510fps
Rem 700 24" 30-06 with 178gr ELD-X real load MV = 2775fps
******THEORHETICAL****** 16.5" Barrel 30-06 load with 178gr ELD-X using GRT;
H4350 = 2550fps
Varget = 2525fps
H4895 = 2500fps
30-06 is too innefficient to burn the extra powder, therefore you're not getting a significant increase in MV by going to the larger case. Longer barrels it's different, 30-06 is 100fps better than 308, but getting short, 308 is superior. I'm wondering though if that would change with a magnum primer, but i'd assume AT BEST you might pick up 30fps or so at the cost of a less stable load (not taht that matters for hunting).
308 is the go mate.
I had a 16.75" 30-06 that would push a 165gr to 2725 fps. My 20" 308s are shooting 169s at about 2650fps (they will go faster but I like that load).
16" 338 federal has been around 2425fps with a 200gr and around 2475fps with a 185gr.
16" AR 6.8spc with 90s is about 2850fps and 110gr about 2625fps my bolt gun 6.8 likes 110s at 2675fps
Not sure what your hunting but hope that helps.
16" 338 federal has been around 2425fps with a 200gr and around 2475fps with a 185gr.
16" AR 6.8spc with 90s is about 2850fps and 110gr about 2625fps my bolt gun 6.8 likes 110s at 2675fps
Not sure what your hunting but hope that helps.
This is a common assumption in these threads, but in my experience isn't true.
I've had .308's at 16", 18", 20" and 22" and .30-06s at 18.5" and 22", and loaded for all of them, with optimal loads in both .30-06 has always maintained about the same lead in short and long barrels.
Whether that difference matters depends on what you're looking for, but it's there. If OP wants a shorter .30-06, cut a .30-06 down and rock on, if you want long barrel .30-06 performance in a short barrel, an 18" .300 WSM works very well for that in my experience.
Here's a couple posts i made in a similar thread a few years ago with some related info and velocities.
Post in thread '18” 30/06' https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/18”-30-06.7004771/post-10662236
As for short. 300 WSM, here are some velocity spreads that I shot with 200gr ELDx, 168gr E-tips and 165gr TGK over RL-16 and Staball 6.5 in my 18" barrel.
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In my 6.8 spc i use the 110 grain barnes TTX bullet and it kills all hogs and the puny FL deer awesome in a 7lbs rifle. Perfect for me. 2600 fps from short barrel
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Second that. 12.5" SPC's are proven past 300 on deer
A 20" 6.5 PRC for lots more ain'tbad either.
Hard to beat a 308 in shorter barrels for a general purpose hunting rifle. If the round only “performs fine”, you should change bullets.
Our shorty's are 16" 6.5C, 16" .308 and 18" 7SAC (necked up Creedmoor) They give up very little inside 300yds They are also good killers. Antelope and deer in the 500yd range with the 6.5 and the 7 SAC nice clean kills, but mainly used inside 300. They do drop more and wind hold more beyond 300 but they were built as handy length guns with suppressors in box blinds that can reach out within reason when needed and they do well at that. We run 120/123's in the 6.5, 155's in the .308 and 140's in the 7SAC.
Thanks guys! I'm not familiar with 6.8 spc and not much with 450 bushmaster but I'll check them out.
So lm intrigued with the 338 fed or 358 Win. They seem like they get me what I'm looking for. Other than hand loading do you see any drawbacks?
So lm intrigued with the 338 fed or 358 Win. They seem like they get me what I'm looking for. Other than hand loading do you see any drawbacks?
also if you are a bolt gun guy you can just get a humble 16 inch 308 and call it a day.
G
What 155 in the .308?
Looking at this and curious what others are using.
The AMAX has worked great on deer, and wanting something that holds together a tad better for bigger critters. Was thinking a Partition or maybe even a copper….
You can always just use a Barnes bullet like the TTSX. it will never let you down. Goes in the animal .308 and comes out the other side the size of a quarter no matter what animal.
You can always just use a Barnes bullet like the TTSX. it will never let you down. Goes in the animal .308 and comes out the other side the size of a quarter no matter what animal.
You ever use them on elk?
I have shot smaller game and had same results you mention.
Suppressed compact elk rifle is the goal here.
it should be OK on elk if you used maybe like the 178 class bullets. But elk are so damn big that maybe like a 20 inch 300 PRC or 6.5 PRC with the Barnes bullets would be better.
What defines “performs ok?” I have a 16” 308 with a verified mv of ~2490 fps with federal gold medal match 168.
This is the deer I shot last year- exit wound. How much deader is a faster bullet going to make him?
This is the deer I shot last year- exit wound. How much deader is a faster bullet going to make him?
I just got one with a 24” 300 wsm and 200 gr eldx.
No exit.
Went like 12 yds.
I have proof on the wall that a 150 SST will exit an elk from a 22” .308
A Barnes should too….
Elk arent bullet proof.
Honestly felt crazy using the WSM for a 200 yd shot.
Berger 155 VLD Hunting. It's been a good killer. I'd work a load up for an Accubond 150 or Accubond LR 168 if I was looking for a tougher big critter load. The Partition is a great bullet but my logic is loading these short barrel guns with the highest BC bullet that will do the job to offset some of the loss in velocity of the shorter barrels. The 7 SAC is using a 140 Accubond.
I just got one with a 24” 300 wsm and 200 gr eldx.
No exit.
Went like 12 yds.
I have proof on the wall that a 150 SST will exit an elk from a 22” .308
A Barnes should too….
Elk arent bullet proof.
Honestly felt crazy using the WSM for a 200 yd shot.
I killed an elk with a 190 LRX at 319y and that bullet didn’t exit - 300WM.
most of my high velocity rounds don’t exit. The slower moving stuff usually does since it lacks explosive expansion energy.
if you think you 300WSM is too much at 200y, I feel way over gunned with my 300NM and just a Mulie tag
ETA: all guns deserve loving
Thanks G!!
Was thinking the same way.
150 Partition would do fine out of my 20” .308 out a good ways I bet.
I do really like the consistency and ease of getting good groups and tight SDs with the Bergers.
Was thinking the same way.
150 Partition would do fine out of my 20” .308 out a good ways I bet.
I do really like the consistency and ease of getting good groups and tight SDs with the Bergers.
My short barrel thoughts are to use a cartridge that is the opposite of overbore. Big hole, bigger bullet, going slower. With solid velocity data any proper scope makes holdovers simple to 400-500-ish. Hell, a 270gr in a 375H&H at book minimum is 2300fps. I don’t get the urge to go light bullet slow and expect the same results as a heavy at 2700+.
I wouldn't say it's an assumption - my data is based on OBT through GRT.
The thing with the loads is what is going to be the most accurate and give the lowest SDs vs filling to 100% case capacity (or more) and chasing MV.
It is entirely possible to go higher that what i've exampled. We've pushed 30-06 to 2950fps from a 24" barrel with no pressure signs with single digit SD's and 1 hole groups. However, if you can do that with 30-06 you can do it with 308 or anything else. If your gun tolerates those pressures and that OBT then it's a non-issue. We run this sort of load philosophy through the 12.5" guns because we want range.
So there's loading to OBT and loading for MV. The comparison was to OBT (lowest SD and best theoretical accuracy). Push it harder, you'll get more energy on target. But you can do that with either cart. 308 is going to do that better in a short barrel by virtue of the fact it is more economical and efficient.
Clarity, we are running H4895 in the 12.5" guns because that builds pressure and therefore mv faster in 308. But that is consistent regardless of barrel length for 308.
I would say it's an assumption, it's not based on data, data is measured, it's based on the outputs of modeling software that you haven't trued or validated. It could be accurate or way off for the .30-06, you don't know because you don't have any actual data for the '06 to see how your model is doing, and in this case it's not accurate.
You were correct here, what you have is an estimate.
This is not correct though, this is the assumption that I see in these threads from folks who haven't actually tried both at comparable barrel lengths and with powders that are optimal for each (not H4895 and Varget for 178s in a .30-06). OBT is meaningless without validating the model with data, and very likely meaningless even if you actually know what your velocities are.
I would advise folks to be very careful putting much stock in the outputs of quickload or the free knockoffs without actually truing. They can be fairly accurate sometimes and wildly off other times, you don't know which is which if you aren't shooting.
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I think what you're primarily trying to say is that GRT is not accurate enough to generate a load? If that's the case then I agree.
The data in GRT, once trued to real world, is accurate enough for comparison's sake. The 30-06 load I used in this instance is trued to real world, then i just dropped the barrel length in the program. The fps might be slightly off (or charge weight), but that small margin of error isn't going to skew the results drastically enough to make a difference eg;
GRT predicts 2540fps, real world is 2560fps for 30-06.
2560fps real world 30-06 vs 2500fps real world for 308 - The difference isn't significant.
If we use GRT as a basic analysis tool and 30-06 showed a potential increase of 150+fps over the 308, then 30-06 would be worth exploring further. This is where we'd work out our exact fps increase real world to know our EXACT fps and work out the EXACT load.
But the data error of FPS coming from GRT as a quick down and dirty comparison isn't going to be the make or break in choosing one cartridge over another in this instance.
Even if we charitably give 30-06 the 100fps increase it generally enjoys over 308, we are talking 2500fps from a 16.5" 308, vs 2600fps from a 30-06. At 300y, which was OPs range, is it optimal to choose 30-06 over 308?
I think you're taking exception to the use of digital modelling, which is fine, there's not a chance in hell i'd trust it to give me an accurate load from my desk either, but for an educated estimation to give us enough information to make a decision on which direction to go cartridge wise, the margin of error is insignificant enough so as not to matter in the context of this conversation.
The argument that the gun likes what the gun likes is fine too, but as I said, you can keep putting powder in the cases until you hit pressure with both. If you do that for both cartridges, then the 30-06 is going to pull ahead roughly the same. The powder burn in the shorter barrels is not going to be good enough to separate the 30-06 from the 308 in any meaningful way compared to longer barrels where it can enjoy the benefits of the powder increase.
I think you're being a little too pedantic for what is a generalized discussion.
I'm saying if I put my hand on a hot iron, it's going to burn me.
You're saying i'm making an assumption and how hot it is and how much i'm going to get burned matters.... no. It doesn't. In a general sense, we know the outcome enough to make a decision. I'm going to get burned. That's good enough reason for me to not put my hand on a hot iron.
Just like, generally speaking, the 50-80fps difference 30-06 is going to give over 308 with a +- 20fps error margin thanks to GRT isn't going to be significant enough to justify 30-06 over 308 in a short barrel.
I'm not
I'm not being pedantic, I'm saying I've tried what you're theorizing about, and the equivalencies and generalities you're throwing out as facts are wrong.
I'm saying I've found the real world difference between top end .308 and .30-06 loads is usually closer to150fps, not the 50fps you're stating, sometimes more with heavier bullets. I also haven't seen that difference change much in shorter barrels. So your conjecture about the .30-06 being "too inefficient to burn the extra powder" and therefore not delivering a significant velocity bump over .308 of the same size is just nonsense. There are folks posting real data and experience with shorter .30-06 rifles, but you don't seem to be interested in learning, just doubling down to argue that your initial assumptions were correct afterall.
I didn't see any .30-06 data in the table in your first post, but you said above that your example velocity of a 178gr bullet at 2,560 fps in a 16.5" .30-06 is a measured number right? Is it your load, your rifle and if so what is the load?
Here is some load data from my 18.5" .30-06.
165gr SBT, 59gr H4350, ~ 2,800 fps (was 2,920 fps when the barrel was 22")
Here are some spreads I shot with 168gr TTSX to start load workup.
One of the posters above also mentioned that his 16.5" .30-06 with 165gr ran around 2,725 fps, which is only about 25fps slower than I used to run 165gr NPs in my 22" .308.
For comparison, here are some of my current and past .308 loads.
SFAR 16"
150gr Win Deer season xp - 2,680 fps
165gr TGK, 40.5gr AR-Comp - 2,540 fps
Sig Cross 16"
168gr BT, 41.8gr AR-Comp - 2,595 fps
Tikka CTR 20"
178gr Amax, 43.8gr Varget - 2,605 fps
Maybe your 18.5" .308 runs just 50fps slower than the '06 data above, but I would be surprised as I haven't been able to do it without loosening primer pockets.
Your 24" .308 178gr data above seems to be right around my 18.5" 180gr '06 velocities with 5.5" more barrel. ~30fps per inch of barrel and that seems about right.
I'm not being pedantic, I'm saying I've tried what you're theorizing about, and the equivalencies and generalities you're throwing out as facts are wrong.
I'm saying I've found the real world difference between top end .308 and .30-06 loads is usually closer to150fps, not the 50fps you're stating, sometimes more with heavier bullets. I also haven't seen that difference change much in shorter barrels. So your conjecture about the .30-06 being "too inefficient to burn the extra powder" and therefore not delivering a significant velocity bump over .308 of the same size is just nonsense. There are folks posting real data and experience with shorter .30-06 rifles, but you don't seem to be interested in learning, just doubling down to argue that your initial assumptions were correct afterall.
I didn't see any .30-06 data in the table in your first post, but you said above that your example velocity of a 178gr bullet at 2,560 fps in a 16.5" .30-06 is a measured number right? Is it your load, your rifle and if so what is the load?
Here is some load data from my 18.5" .30-06.
165gr SBT, 59gr H4350, ~ 2,800 fps (was 2,920 fps when the barrel was 22")
Here are some spreads I shot with 168gr TTSX to start load workup.
One of the posters above also mentioned that his 16.5" .30-06 with 165gr ran around 2,725 fps, which is only about 25fps slower than I used to run 165gr NPs in my 22" .308.
For comparison, here are some of my current and past .308 loads.
SFAR 16"
150gr Win Deer season xp - 2,680 fps
165gr TGK, 40.5gr AR-Comp - 2,540 fps
Sig Cross 16"
168gr BT, 41.8gr AR-Comp - 2,595 fps
Tikka CTR 20"
178gr Amax, 43.8gr Varget - 2,605 fps
Maybe your 18.5" .308 runs just 50fps slower than the '06 data above, but I would be surprised as I haven't been able to do it without loosening primer pockets.
Your 24" .308 178gr data above seems to be right around my 18.5" 180gr '06 velocities with 5.5" more barrel. ~30fps per inch of barrel and that seems about right.
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I have to agree with @Gtscotty
I built a 16" 300 SAUM for deer and hogs from a blind. I wanted to dump as much energy as I could on the hogs because I hate chasing after a wounded pig in real thick cover and cedar. I want to anchor them.
You can squeeze more performance from a shorter barrel, but you have to burn more powder!
My 300 SAUM from a 16" barrel beat my 30-06 from its 24" barrel when doing pressure tests with several bullets and powder combos.
130 TTSX @ 3150
180 BTSP @ 2850
190 SMK @ 2800
The sows and real young boars get brined, battered and fried in the cast iron... country fried pork nuggets
@snowplow
Sorry to hijack the thread for a minute.
Direct answer to your question/s:
Some cartridges do maintain their velocities better in shorter barrels. Example, if the average fps loss per inch is 30fps, some cartridges may lose 20fps, others 50fps or more on average. That loss, even from the same cartridge is different at various lengths though. A cartridge may only lose 10fps between 26" and 25" but lose 50fps when cutting back from 17" to 16"
There are good "velocity by the inch" type articles all over the web for various cartridges.
As mentioned before, you can retain or pick up some of that velocity loss by burning more powder or a different powder.
In my experience, larger bore diameters perform better and lose less fps per inch in shorter barrels than the smaller calibers. Example, a 308 is more efficient than a .243 in a 16" barrel (efficiency in this case is the rate of velocity loss, and muzzle energy produced)
That's why I went 300 SAUM over 7 SAUM in the 16 inch. More powder and bullet combinations gave me a complete burn with the larger bore diameter.
Sorry to hijack the thread for a minute.
Direct answer to your question/s:
Some cartridges do maintain their velocities better in shorter barrels. Example, if the average fps loss per inch is 30fps, some cartridges may lose 20fps, others 50fps or more on average. That loss, even from the same cartridge is different at various lengths though. A cartridge may only lose 10fps between 26" and 25" but lose 50fps when cutting back from 17" to 16"
There are good "velocity by the inch" type articles all over the web for various cartridges.
As mentioned before, you can retain or pick up some of that velocity loss by burning more powder or a different powder.
In my experience, larger bore diameters perform better and lose less fps per inch in shorter barrels than the smaller calibers. Example, a 308 is more efficient than a .243 in a 16" barrel (efficiency in this case is the rate of velocity loss, and muzzle energy produced)
That's why I went 300 SAUM over 7 SAUM in the 16 inch. More powder and bullet combinations gave me a complete burn with the larger bore diameter.
I think in general underbore or at least more efficient cartridges do better out of shorter barrels.
While this is probably true, the relatively anemic BCs of bullets from “underbore” cartridges makes them a poor fit, given the parameters of a 0-300 yard point and shoot MPBR rifle.
My 270 win from a 22” barrel won’t hold sub 6” vertical spread (without hold over/under) from 0-300 yards. I doubt a 338 fed or 35 Whelen will from a 16” gun.
7mm PRC. Getting 2868fps in a 20” with 175grain pill. Pretty impressive cartridge.
Another good option, my 19" 7PRC is topping out around 2,800 fps with Ramshot Grand and 175gr ELDx, 160gr class could of course be pushed faster.
What is your zero and 6 inch MPBR?
What is your zero and 6 inch MPBR?
What I was talking about WERE generalisations - not facts. It's a rough estimate based on available data for that sake of comparison to investigate whether a course of action is worth pursuing. The Data from GRT is based on an OBT estimate that is trued up to Real world 24" barrel MV. Not pressure. OP MAX for 30-06 is quite high compared to SAAMI recommendations in newer rifles with modern brass and powders. I trued my data for the 24", then dropped the barrel length to 16.5" and hit calculate OBT based on the existing data. That's where the 50 FPS came from. GENERALLY speaking, GRT is usually within 30fps of true. But it's rarely spot on (it's only been accurate once for me, ever).
You can definitely go over pressure, and you can definitely cram as much powder in a case as you can - I choose not to for comparison's sake as there's a lot of variables that come into play that can effect the amount of pressure that could be tolerated.
Out of curiosity, if I went and bought a box of 178gr ELD-X in 30-06 factory ammo and fired that out of my 16.5" barrel, what would the MV be? Would that ammo be tuned to SAAMI pressure or would it be max loaded like your hand loads?
Can I get your load data? I want to copy it exactly and fire it through my gun so I get the same groups and MVs as you..... That's how that works right? Or is your example limited to your rifles and your loads? What's your bore dimensions? SAAMI spec or custom chamber? etc.
GENERALLY speaking, 30-06 isn't worth the squeeze in a short barrel over 308. Maybe I should caveat that with "within the recommended pressures and load limitations as set out by SAAMI"?.
If you want to go over pressure, the 30-06 does tolerate that better than 308, so you can drive it like you stole it, but for a generalized conversation, I'm probably viewing that point the same way you are mine.
To use hyperbole;
"I got 3000fps out of my 2" 30-06 using a mortar and pestle and 180gr of H-Unicorn behind a 700gr 50cal A-Tip i filed down on my lathe" is PROBABLY outside the scope of the GENERAL conversation around what a load may or may not do out of any given rifle.
50-100fps based on the burn rate of H4350 would be expected. Within an margin of error to factor in variables like internal dimensions of the gun etc.
The REAL argument here is, after doubling down, does backing my initial claims mean i'm TRIPPLING down? Or am I doubling my double making it a QUADRUPLING down?
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Any of the new "wonder magnums" will do deer at 300 yards with authority assuming a good bullet and above average hearing protection.
You obviously like the 30-06 so, I would say a 35 Whelen in an 18" barrel would be a real sweet spot for you. Personally, I like the 338/06 a bit better but, I'm running a 24" barrel and looking for deeper penetration on tougher game at greater distances.
You obviously like the 30-06 so, I would say a 35 Whelen in an 18" barrel would be a real sweet spot for you. Personally, I like the 338/06 a bit better but, I'm running a 24" barrel and looking for deeper penetration on tougher game at greater distances.
Who cares about MPBR, this isn't a 25-06 with a duplex on top? In Wyoming a better question is "what is the drift in full value 20 mph breeze at 400 yds", aka any given Tuesday in October/November.
If that's out of a shorty then you've done it, given the parameters of a 0-300 yard point and shoot MPBR rifle. That's close enough
