Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

J

Johnnyscience

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Feb 11, 2009
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Cleveland, Ohio
#1
What is the shortest barrel I can get away with on a .308 to still get the most out of the round and be able to run all the way out to 1000 yards?

16"?

20"?

I really dont want to go longer than 20" if I dont have to... and would like to go shorter unless it dramatically affects the performance of the .308 round.
 
#3
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

I want to say there are members on here getting out to 1000 yards with 18" barrels on .308s. I'm sure some will chime in to say it can't be done then some will chime in to say they are doing it.

Grabbing the popcorn.
 
#4
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Hmm. Well I would assume those that are using 18" and hitting 1000 yards are much more skilled than I am...

So would a 20" make a world of difference for me?

Does an extra 2" really help?

Or would I have to go as long as 22"?
 
#5
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Custom or factory barrel. Tight bore (.298 - .299) or loose (.300 -.301) chamber specs. All can make a difference.
 
#6
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnyscience</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm. Well I would assume those that are using 18" and hitting 1000 yards are much more skilled than I am...

So would a 20" make a world of difference for me?</div></div>

Nope.

Length of barrel and skill required to make the shot don't have anything to do with each other. If you can't make the hit with a 18-20" then you aren't going to be able to do it with a 24" either.
 
#8
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom or factory barrel. Tight bore (.298 - .299) or loose (.300 -.301) chamber specs. All can make a difference. </div></div>

Hmm. I suppose I dont know. I dont understand .308 barrels enough yet to make a determination.

What do you suggest?

Will that article Joseph linked to give me a deeper understanding of this aspect?

(I tried pulling up that article at work, but they have that website blocked)

So LoneWolf, based on that statement from you, I might as well go with the 18" as I am trying to keep the barrel as short as possible, and as you said, i either can or I cant at that point.

I dont know as of yet to be honest.

So if 18, or 24" will both hit 1000 yards, what advantages does a 24" barrel bring over a 18"?



 
#9
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Have you even researched this topic? If you go back a few months in the archives you will find more information than you can process on this... Not trying to downplay your post, but I know if i had this question i could find the answer on here somewhere without making a post like that. If you are just now asking what the advantages are from a 24 to an 18 inch barrel then you have not really researched this very much.
Just my .02
 
#11
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

I've got a Surgeon with a 20" barrel and mostly shoot FGMM-168s. The boolets tend to go subsonic (and sideways into the target) after 900 yards. I could probably make it to 1K (reliably) with 175's. I have yet to try 155's, which would probably get there even mo bettah.
 
#12
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnyscience</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So LoneWolf, based on that statement from you, I might as well go with the 18" as I am trying to keep the barrel as short as possible, and as you said, i either can or I cant at that point.
</div></div>

Yes and no.

LW is right, but... I've gotten my 20" factory (loose) rig to 1K. But, to do so, I had to take my elevation on my scope all the way up, and was still holding WAY over the target.

Now, with a 24" custom (tight) rig, the hold over is much less.

Now, is there a reason youre looking for a short barrel length?

PS - the search function is a PITA.
 
#13
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

I'm looking for a short(er) barrel for a couple of reasons:

I'm 5'5", so I dont want to try to handle a weapon bigger than me.

Also I would like more mobility.

Now I know snipers are highly mobile and generally have longer barrels, but for me and my ideas, I think an 18-20" barrel will be ideal.


 
#14
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

short answer, if you want flat trajectory over long distance you want long barrel, period. you can probably throw a bullet to 1000 yards with a 2 inch barrel but yer gonna have a helluva time hitting anything. barrel length directly proportional to velocity which equates to flat trajectory and less wind drift. but are you really gonna shoot 1000 yards? most shooters never do and the 18 to 22 inch barrels are for them.
 
#15
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Just how often are you shooting 1000yds? If you hold it inside 800, which I'll bet 95% of your shooting will be, make it what you want. After all, the ONLY thing at a perfect 1000yds is paper.
 
#16
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Im pretty sure that all the powder is burnt at 16.5" or a little more Mike Rock told me a while back. Like many have said if you are building a gun for 1K then go with a longer barrel, If you just want to be able to get there if need be go shorter. I would build the rifle around the majority of what your going to shoot at. I have heard that the 18" barrels will torque the rifle to the right or left as well. I was going to chop my 22" but decided to keep it as is.
 
#18
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Im not sure the term 'flat trajectory' and '308' belong in the same sentence.
grin.gif


My gf hit 1K all the time with a 20 inch Savage. I think LowLight is smackin a lotta stuff currently with an 18 inch GAP.

When youre getting that short the extra 2 inches might make a bigger difference in trajectory than in mobility.

Personally, I'd stick with 20.
 
#19
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

I will be cutting my barrel back to 20 for now. I have a factory 26" Varmint Taper .308

The majority of my shooting is under 500 yards, but now that I found a local spot to get over 1K that may change. I know I can still get 155 scenars to 1K with a 20" and my current scope. Depending on the results I may still go to 18". I just don't know yet.

If you will rarely shoot over 800 yards, go with a short barrel.
 
#20
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

Good thread. I was about to ask the same or similar question. (Trying to find relevant past posts using the arcane search function is difficult and very time consuming.)

I like the point about the rifle designed for what you do most, not what you might do or only occasionally which is exactly my case.

And there's always long range loads using 155 Scenars if I ever have the opportunity to go to 1,000. Just more development work.

Sherlok
 
#23
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

Palma shooters would disagree (even laugh, perhaps) at the notion that an 18"-20" barrel is enough for 800-1000 yard shooting.

My tip? You can make a longer barrel shorter later, but you can't make a short one longer if you're 50fps too slow to keep a bullet stable at 1000.
I'd start with 22 or 24".

Your twist rate will depend on what bullets you want to shoot.
1-10" or 1-11" would be good "all around" choices. 1-12" will shoot lighter (190-ish or less) bullets.


 
#25
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

It has been proven by a number of folks that reducing barrel length from 26" to 20" results in marginal to no loss and 18" to 20" results in very marginal loss. I can't comment on Palma shooters as they use much longer barrels. But clearly, if there is no difference in going from 26" to 20", why go 20"? And BTW- shorter barrels are stiffer, so accuracy should improve with a shorter barrel.

Don't believe me. Here are some links:

Shooting Times

SWAT

Gladius


GPS Sniper School
 
#26
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

Here is the 18" barreled Gladius being shot at 1000 yards...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/15qj032UJ1I"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/15qj032UJ1I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
#27
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

LL what kind of twist and velocity are you getting with the 18"? I see that you are shooting the Corbon ammo. The time of flight is slightly long isn't it for 1K distance?
 
#28
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

gotta love mythbusters. . . not trying to bash anyone because im not nearly as experienced as many people here . but i have shot my 18" 223 to 1000 with good results all recovered bullets had textbook mushrooms showwed no sighns of tumbling . my .02
 
#29
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

So we have determined we can reach out to 1000 yards with .308 and an 18-20" barrel.

But how many FPS is it traveling once it hits the 1000 yard mark?

There is no point in a paper puncher out to 1000 yards... so does it still have hard, smack/knock down/kill power at that distance with that short of a barrel?
 
#31
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL what kind of twist and velocity are you getting with the 18"? I see that you are shooting the Corbon ammo. The time of flight is slightly long isn't it for 1K distance? </div></div>


Dont forget you also are having to wait for the sound to travel back and at a 1000 yards thats probably about 2/3 of the total time.

CJG
 
#32
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnyscience</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So we have determined we can reach out to 1000 yards with .308 and an 18-20" barrel.

But how many FPS is it traveling once it hits the 1000 yard mark?

There is no point in a paper puncher out to 1000 yards... so does it still have hard, smack/knock down/kill power at that distance with that short of a barrel? </div></div>

You think theres a difference between a 155 at 1100 and a 155 at 1200? If you want power at long range, get a .338.
 
#33
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

Ya, no shit, if you want to shoot 1000 yards, get a 1000 yard rifle, which isn't a 308. I'll say that again, it isn't a 308, can it be done, of course, because we're arrogant and we can, that doesn't mean we should.

You want to talk FPS and energy, like RyanScott said, get a 338.

The TOF is not really any different you're hearing the delay in the sound to reach the shooter.

The Gladius uses 12Mils to reach 1000 yards, it was 80 degrees, with a Baro of 29.71, so you can do the math.

Is it repeatable, yes, is it accurate, yes... can you do it, sure, would you want to for score, not with this rifle, but you can try. A short barrel 308 is for nothing more than working inside the effective range of a 308, or 800m, not for 1000 yards. Its fast, light and accurate, that's its advantage.
 
#37
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on

Well, this is my first post here. I've been reading what you guys have been writing about rifles. I'm looking to get my first precision rifle, but don't want to drop major bucks.

I'm just a recreational shooter, and probably won't get out much. However, the property that I will be hunting next year will have a sod field that I can shoot across that exceeds 1000 yards.

I was up in the air on what kind of rifle to get. 5R - 24" barrel? 700 SPS varmint - 26" barrel? or the 700 SPS Tactical with 20" barrel? Since I may even use this gun to hunt deer with so I believe the 700 SPS Tactical will probably be a good compromise.

We Georgia boys most often that not do not get very long shots.
 
#38
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnyscience</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for a short(er) barrel for a couple of reasons:

I'm 5'5", so I dont want to try to handle a weapon bigger than me.

Also I would like more mobility.

Now I know snipers are highly mobile and generally have longer barrels, but for me and my ideas, I think an 18-20" barrel will be ideal.


</div></div>

If you want an easier handling rifle, why not look at a lighter barrel profile and lighter stock? Like someone else said, it is easy to shorten the barrel, impossible to lengthen it... Also, do you notice that most of the folks shooting 18" barrels have suppressors attached? Are you going to have a suppressor? Muzzle flash/blast becomes annoying as you go to really short lengths...well its annoying to your neighbor anyway.
smile.gif
I"m also guessing the folks with 18" 308 rifles also have other 308 rifles with longer barrels. When they want to shoot 1000 yards for record....probably don't pick the 18" rifle.

20" is as short as I'd go without a suppressor.
 
#41
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

You guys smoke the crack.... the shorter barrels have no different muzzle blast especially with a good brake.

Here is a 12.5" 308 and there is no "flame" or not crazy blast or jump, you can see where the blast is deflected from the brake but that is it, the rifles will still stay on target if you drive them correctly.

_FLG2563.jpg


_FLG2581.jpg


It's not a big deal, the shorter barrels are fine when used within their limitations, and really if you drive them right their limitation isn't much past any other barrel.

My longest barrel here is 22" in a 308, but then again, I don't plan on shooting something like F Class with any of them, if they were gonna be used for that, I would opt for 26" probably, and then run some really zippy 155gr load.
 
#42
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

Here is a video of the 18" Gladius without the suppressor:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/E7SxqGR5rsQ"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E7SxqGR5rsQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

No crazy blast there either.
 
#43
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you want an easier handling rifle, why not look at a lighter barrel profile and lighter stock? </div></div>

Why not a lighter barrel profile? Less accurate
Why not a lighter stock? Less recoil absorption
Why a short barrel? Because it performs exactly the same as a long barrel, except that it is shorter and lighter.

With a lighter barrel profile, balance might come in to play, but with a bull barrel, an 18" barrel should be pretty well balanced.

I know that years of superstition have played into the idea that you need 24" or 26" for velocity or accuracy. This might actually be true for some calibers (read the article I posted from the Shooting Times). For .308, it has been proven by pretty much everyone who has bothered to try it that you lose nothing down to 20" and probably don't lose much down to 18".

If you are looking to shed weight and keep accuracy, shortening is better than fluting (according to Varmint Al, who has run some mechanical engineering simulations). It is really a waste to flute a 26" barrel... much better to shave off 6". A lighter profile? Same answer... less stiff barrel = less accuracy.

I can't speak to the muzzle blast issue, but most reports that I have heard say no difference. It is not something I really care about, so I haven't looked into it as deeply as the impact on MV and accuracy.
 
#46
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

brakes are advised.

after several trips to the range with my 20" 700, a pattern emerged of a sore right shoulder, even through winter layers.

granted its a medium weight rem varmint contour, in a kevlar stock, lots of aluminum. its on the light side.

if i had a silencer, or a brake, im sure it would make sense.

the way i see it these are the mitigating factors for a short 308
A.suppressor/brake
B.tactical competition/hunting/mobility
C.small car/apartment (no room for 52" gun cases)
D.personal preference

if/when i have the savings account for a custom (fingers crossed) ill be asking for a 24" #7... id just like to be able to get through 50 rounds without developing a significant flinch.
 
#50
Re: Shortest barrel length I can get away with on .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heycorey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That little POF sure is a neat looking gun ... who's the hippie? </div></div>
LOL! That's Jacob at Rifles Only.
 
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