Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

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One_Man

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Minuteman
Jul 6, 2009
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Selma, Texas
#1
So, I shot a friends S&W M&P AR-15 today and I really expected it to be better. After shooting my Savage 10FP LE with 1.5lb accutrigger, honestly the S&W trigger is terrible. Felt like 5 lbs and had noticeable creep. My Romanian AK-47 with a single hook Tapco trigger was better than the AR-15.

That coupled with the fact that the scope was set too far back for me to get proper eye relief, not to mention that it was a BSA mil-dot scope, and that we attempted to sight in at 200y with Monarch ammo makes me never want to shoot an AR-15 again.

I can imagine that a better stock, bull barrel, quality optics, solid rest, and nice trigger would make all the difference in the world. Is there a point to even buying a factory AR-15 or is it better to just build it up with quality parts if I ever decided take on an AR-15.

Also, it chewed up the brass pretty good. How many firings can you get before your brass is toast?
 
#2
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

Well, factory stock AR-15 triggers are pretty bad across the board until you get into some of the offerings like the RRA NM trigger and some of the other "upgrade" triggers offered by rifle manufacturers. That is one of many reasons that the aftermarket for AR triggers is as large as it is. I don't have a single factory or LPK trigger in any of my many AR rifles.

Second...a BSA on anything will make you think twice about the rifle it is sitting on. They are just CRAP...PURE CRAP!! Poor optics, combined with poor construction and adjustments will always equal poor performance.

As for the S&W chewing up brass...who knows what is causing that problem. Did it seem to be a problem with the case getting beat up on extraction or was it scratched up from crap in the chamber, etc. Most AR-15s aren't that tough on brass. Sure, any semi-auto will be tougher on brass than a bolt action or single shot rifle, but multiple reloads (even with fairly hot loads) are not a problem on my AR-15 and AR-10 rifles.

As for buy vs. build...it is always better to build than to buy because you can get exactly what you want/need and nothing that you don't. No need to spend $1k on a rifle that isn't what you want. You can usually build for much cheaper than you can buy a complete rifle and then have to "upgrade" later. Why spend $1k on a rifle as a "starter" when you immediately have to turn around and replace a stock, trigger, handguard, etc. Just buy the components and build what you want from the start.
 
#3
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

You need to remember that the SW M&P is designed to be a service weapon not a tricked out competition gun with an unsafe trigger. When you are put into high stress shoot/ no shoot scenarios a featherweight trigger is not ideal. I believe these are actually set at 7 lbs. Most PDs have a policy of how light a trigger can be.

If you are looking for a competition gun then perhaps it may be better to build one, however if your life actually depends on it everyday I would go with a proven design/ set up.
 
#4
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

They only thing I can add that hasn't been said is that I have some brass that has 10+ reloads on them. Also your friend can do some free trigger work and make that trigger feel like night and day difference. If you want a tac driver get a AR. If you just want to send lead down range keep your AK.
 
#5
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmpowder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They only thing I can add that hasn't been said is that I have some brass that has 10+ reloads on them. Also your friend can do some free trigger work and make that trigger feel like night and day difference. If you want a tac driver get a AR. If you just want to send lead down range keep your AK. </div></div>
I agree with all the posts above except the first one that started this whole thing. I have an AK, AR and bolt actions rifles and to compare a stock M&P to a rifle with a smoothed out 1.5 lb trigger is simply stupid. I have a DPMS that has a worked over trigger that breaks clean at 3 lbs ( I like three to four in an AR) I don't get all tweaked becouse every rifle I grab won't pull clean. The first thing you lost on was that your AK has a better trigger. The second was the crying rant. The third was thinking a factory AR was like your bolt action rifle. Enough said........Oh I forgot that you somehow think becouse the rifle had a stupid BSA scope in the first place, without being mounted right is the rifles fault? I had an M&P that shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards with ten round groups.
 
#6
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

The trigger on the M&P 15 I played around with was terrible compared to my stock Colt LE6940 trigger. Hell, it was just terrible, period.
 
#7
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

My friend has one as well and one thing I noticed is how loud the buffer spring was on every shot. Really annoying. It did have decent accuracy though.
 
#8
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree with all the posts above except the first one that started this whole thing. I have an AK, AR and bolt actions rifles and to compare a stock M&P to a rifle with a smoothed out 1.5 lb trigger is simply stupid.</div></div>

Why? I have a 1.5 lb accutrigger and it is sweet. A 7 lb trigger, not so sweet. Its the only AR I've shot, what else am I supposed to compare it to?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have a DPMS that has a worked over trigger that breaks clean at 3 lbs ( I like three to four in an AR) I don't get all tweaked becouse every rifle I grab won't pull clean. The first thing you lost on was that your AK has a better trigger.
</div></div>

The single hook trigger on my AK was better.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The second was the crying rant.
</div></div>

Nobody was crying.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The third was thinking a factory AR was like your bolt action rifle.</div></div>

Again, first time I had shot an AR.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Enough said........Oh I forgot that you somehow think becouse the rifle had a stupid BSA scope in the first place, without being mounted right is the rifles fault?
</div></div>

I'm with you on that. BSA is crap and I would never put one on any of my rifles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had an M&P that shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards with ten round groups. </div></div>

Doubt it. Not with that trigger and stock anyways.
 
#9
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had an M&P that shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards with ten round groups. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parkincense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Doubt it. Not with that trigger and stock anyways. </div></div>

The trigger and stock don't make the bullet fly any straighter. It's the finger pulling the trigger that matters.
 
#10
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

Hmmm, lets see.
I went and shot my friends mil-spec AR15 that he fed the crappiest steel cased russian junk ammo and had an equally crappy BSA scope in 9 dollar rings and I am really suprised that it did not shoot as well as my heavy barreld bolt action rifle with a 6oo dollar scope, aluminum bedding block tactical stock and muzzle break.

Duh.
It is a DUTY weapon. With a typicial AR15 trigger, although the S&W trigger is better than some, worse than others.

When is the last time you tried to clear a house with your 15 pound rifle?

Honestly, comparing a duty equivalent AR to precision bolt gun, then you want to bitch about it.
Try comparing it to a Rock River varmint model with a match trigger, an equivalent scope in a proper mount stoked with black hills 68 grain match ammo.
 
#11
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

You are not understanding the difference between a service rifle and a benchrest/target gun. Different weights of trigger pull are needed. I think you need to get out and shoot some different AR's before you start critizing a whole weapon system you know nothing about.....
 
#13
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had an M&P that shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards with ten round groups. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parkincense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Doubt it. Not with that trigger and stock anyways. </div></div>

The trigger and stock don't make the bullet fly any straighter. It's the finger pulling the trigger that matters. </div></div>

+100, I had a 20 inch hbar M1S kit with stock trigger, when I was on the ball, I could shoot half MOA groups with handloads.


Scott
 
#16
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Subsonic308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sent a performance center S&W AR-15 back cuz they failed to rifle the barrel. Total smooth bore. So Much for Performance center!!! But the 2 stake trigger was nice! </div></div>

What QI???? holy shit!
 
#20
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M24kinnamon_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Subsonic308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sent a performance center S&W AR-15 back cuz they failed to rifle the barrel. Total smooth bore. So Much for Performance center!!! But the 2 stake trigger was nice! </div></div>

What QI???? holy shit! </div></div>
That is one of the worse complaints I have ever heard. Like stated before did you get a pic of it?
Smith and Wesson sais they test shoot every rifle so I would love to hear their reason on this one.
 
#22
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Subsonic308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sent a performance center S&W AR-15 back cuz they failed to rifle the barrel. Total smooth bore. So Much for Performance center!!! But the 2 stake trigger was nice! </div></div>

HOLY HELL!!! Talk about <span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">FAIL</span></span></span></span>!!!!

I'd say that several people screwed up on that one. I mean really...how the hell does a rifle leave a factory "custom shop" that has (allegedly) numerous QC checks in the production line with an unrifled barrel?!?!
 
#24
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

That truly amazes me. I've never been a fan of S&W and after hearing that I'm glad I'm not. That's pathetic. There's really no other word to describe that. Hell it's false marketing! It's technically not a rifle lol!!
 
#25
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had an M&P that shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards with ten round groups. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parkincense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Doubt it. Not with that trigger and stock anyways. </div></div>

The trigger and stock don't make the bullet fly any straighter. It's the finger pulling the trigger that matters. </div></div>

+1
 
#26
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

Well if you don't specify the twist rate, that is what you'll get I suppose.

Most rants made now, are ones that you'd take back later on.
More needs to be learned.
Small frame AR's can be absolute tack drivers, even with little 16" barrels.
The devil is in the details.
Unravel these details, and you will be rewarded.
 
#27
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

Maybe S&Ws ARs are better than others, maybe worse, I've owned one and it was about average. Most AR makers, esp during the Obama rush, were running 3 shifts and yeah, f-ed guns were leaving the factories. I've seen ARs with bad QC problems from most of the big makers, Bushmaster, Colt, RR, DPMS etc.

But yeah, a mil-spec AR trigger breaks at 8-9 lbs, usually. Yes, tapco AR triggers are generally better. As for the scope, without a mount that moves the scope forward, you have to keep your head way back on the stock. That's just the way the receiver design works out.

As for an unrifled barrel, yeah that one's harder to justify...
 
#28
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

The AR is like a dog, all the same species, but a LOT of different looks and performance capabilities. My AR15 is for benchrest type target shooting. Two stage Geiselle trigger with 8 oz on the 2nd stage, a heavy .920" 22"long barrel, combined with high magnification scope make it heavy, and useless as a battle rifle. But it is accurate. And yes, mine even has rifling!

- Phil
 
#29
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I've got two S&W M&P15s and I've bought a few more (at least a half dozen) at work; all have run fine so far and appear well put-together.
 
#30
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I've got two S&W M&P15s and I've bought a few more (at least a half dozen) at work; all have run fine so far and appear well put-together.
 
#31
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I will post the pics of the unrifled barrel only if they fail to make it right. I wonder who S&W buys the barrels from or if it is an in house operation. I will let you know what they decide to do for me. All I want is what I paid for... And the mag replaced that blew out the bottom of the rifle in pieces. Bore was smaller than .224 so the button they pull must change internal specs.
 
#33
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Subsonic308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will post the pics of the unrifled barrel only if they fail to make it right. I wonder who S&W buys the barrels from or if it is an in house operation. I will let you know what they decide to do for me. All I want is what I paid for... And the mag replaced that blew out the bottom of the rifle in pieces. Bore was smaller than .224 so the button they pull must change internal specs.

</div></div>
Their barrels are made in house by their sister company Thompson Center Arms. I know that S&W will make it right for you its just a stupid thing to miss.
 
#34
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

A friend of mine bought a S&W MP 15 in 5.45x39. It was expandinding the cases shoulder so it looked liked a 5.45 improved with splits where it was expanded. We took it back to the store he got it from (J@G Sales in Prescott, AZ) and they exchanged it for another, same problem. The problem was, as reported to me, it was chambered for some 6.8 round. What are the odds of 2 like that passing QC @ S&W. I wouldn't have belived it if I hadn't seen it myself.
 
#36
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I've owned and shot DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag, Colt, and they all have good and bad points. Like everyone said expecting an AR milspec rifle to hold and shoot like a precision (note the word precision)bolt rifle is totally unrealistic. I've seen guys banging steel plates at 400 yeards with the std iron sights from all makes of rifles. My eyes ran out after 300 yards but at that range my well worn bushmaster was still hitting.
 
#37
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend of mine bought a S&W MP 15 in 5.45x39. It was expandinding the cases shoulder so it looked liked a 5.45 improved with splits where it was expanded. We took it back to the store he got it from (J@G Sales in Prescott, AZ) and they exchanged it for another, same problem. The problem was, as reported to me, it was chambered for some 6.8 round. What are the odds of 2 like that passing QC @ S&W. I wouldn't have belived it if I hadn't seen it myself. </div></div>

I would guess the odds were even 2/2.
 
#38
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

smooth bore AR
maybe you could have worked up a .223 shotgun load, might have been hell on frogs, small birds and squirrels-- and a 30 rd mag...kinda like a 12 yr old boys dream gun
 
#39
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I've got an M&P15T which hasn't had any issues. If you can get used to a Glock with a New York trigger, then the factory S&W one isn't too bad. As stated earlier, you don't want a single stage feather weight on a duty rifle, and as for accuracy in relation to trigger pull, a lot of it falls back to the fundamentals.

A smooth-bore 5.56 tube? I'd like to see that.
Pics or it didn't happen, lol.
 
#40
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got an M&P15T which hasn't had any issues. If you can get used to a Glock with a New York trigger, then the factory S&W one isn't too bad. As stated earlier, you don't want a single stage feather weight on a duty rifle, and as for accuracy in relation to trigger pull, a lot of it falls back to the fundamentals.

A smooth-bore 5.56 tube? I'd like to see that.
Pics or it didn't happen, lol. </div></div>

I do think it is funny how he came on here claiming a smooth bore but said he would only show pics if they didn't fix it? He already complained and brought it to our attention so why not show the picture and let us all know he isn't talking shit.
 
#41
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do think it is funny how he came on here claiming a smooth bore but said he would only show pics if they didn't fix it? He already complained and brought it to our attention so why not show the picture and let us all know he isn't talking shit. </div></div>

+1. I mean...the cat is out of the bag now so why not post up a pic or two of the barrel. This is one of those epic "FAIL" moments that is worthy of eternal life in pictures on the Internet!
wink.gif
Plus, it isn't like S&W is going to sweat it...read some of the horrific $#!T that is posted all over the place about their politics, products, CS, etc. Just one more item in a long line of "ooops" moments for S&W.

That said...I own several Smiths and love them. I am not trying to flame a good company...stuff happens...things fall through the cracks (or in this case...a gapping, Grand Canyon size hole) and it is the company's response and actions that pull their fat out of the fire. I am sure they'll do right by you, but a pic or two couldn't hurt at this point.
 
#43
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Subsonic308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will post the pics of the unrifled barrel only if they fail to make it right. I wonder who S&W buys the barrels from or if it is an in house operation. I will let you know what they decide to do for me. All I want is what I paid for... And the mag replaced that blew out the bottom of the rifle in pieces. Bore was smaller than .224 so the button they pull must change internal specs.

</div></div>

eta: post a picture already

I would probably request a whole new weapon. I had a "friend" break a cleaning to off in an AR barrel. Little different scenario when I fired that because the energy all stayed in the upper, but the upper bent, magazine flew out and the bcg was destroyed. just my .02

 
#44
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

pics or shens on the shotgun .223
smile.gif



i've got a pre-obama; post p-mag problem M&P15 that has been reworked head to toe but i got it cheap before everyone jumped on the bandwagon so i don't mind. I loved this little hussie since i bought it for well under what i should have due to a gun shop mishap made more than right.

It always shot in line with my abilities. I slapped in an ATC gold trigger and it just made everything effortless.

Now i am a black UTG tactical shotgun vest wearing cobra commander destroying ninja from the future with robotic man parts.

I wouldn't buy another because i've played 6yo doctor with the neighbor girl and my AR and it would be cheaper just to build it from scratch, but if you're getting into AR's S&W makes good stuff.
 
#45
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I recently picked up a S&W M&P15 FT. The NY compliant version, and it has been great so far. Fit and finish is perfect, and with M193 it will hold 1 1/2" all day long at 100 yards with an ACOG TA 31F on top. Sure it has a factory GI trigger, but I make it work for me. I recommend the S&W M&P15.
 
#46
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I have shot a friend's factory set up M&P15T with an Eothech 556 on top several times with different ammo. It does not have a great trigger but it is acceptable It goes bang every time and I was impressed by it's accuracy. The "T" in the designation stands for tactical, and that description fits that AR perfectly.
 
#47
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

Oh how I love being called a liar. A good friend of mine is John Noveske who has seen pics of the barrel. John told me not to show anyone and to let S&W make it right. I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut like he said. Smart guy.

As I said before I will only post the pics if they fail to make it right. Even after being called a liar by some members. Had to tell one member to (Fuck Off) as he straight called me a liar.

Amazing how fast people will call you a liar with no proof. This board has changed from when I first joined. And not for the better!
 
#48
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

I am sorry that you have been called a liar. Nobody likes being branded untruthful or anything of the sort. I certainly did not intend to call you a liar or to make that implication and I apologize if you took it that way.

My intention in posting above was just to see pics of the barrel not to brand anyone a liar!! I just don't see what the big deal is since you already raised the complaint/issue in your earlier post. Since the cat's out of the bag and any damage is done now that anyone running a search for "issues" or "problems" (or [INSERT SEARCH TERM HERE]) and S&W will run across this thread.
 
#50
Re: Shot a S&W M&P AR-15, not impressed...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry that you have been called a liar. Nobody likes being branded untruthful or anything of the sort. I certainly did not intend to call you a liar or to make that implication and I apologize if you took it that way.

My intention in posting above was just to see pics of the barrel not to brand anyone a liar!! I just don't see what the big deal is since you already raised the complaint/issue in your earlier post. Since the cat's out of the bag and any damage is done now that anyone running a search for "issues" or "problems" (or [INSERT SEARCH TERM HERE]) and S&W will run across this thread. </div></div>
Here is my PM to MR. Dumb ass,
I think you should back your comment with a picture or else I am just going to have to call Bull on this one. You already complained and now won't back it up. It looks as if a story has gotten out of hand. Show us a picture or say your sorry for the white lie.

Here is his response,
Fuck you... I'm wating to see what they do for me. Why would I lie about something so small. Get fucked!

You are an ass!

END of his sad excuse.
 
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