Gunsmithing Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

[turbo54]

So my 284 just wasn't shooting. Sent the barrel in for inspection and I'm told the throat is fire-cracked and hurt bad.

284 win
Short action
.088" Freebore = 162amax on lands at 2.955" COAL

I put 45 rounds through, cleaning every couple shots for the first 5-10 rounds, then cleaned at 25, then at 45, then sent it off for nitride.

Never did group so well.

Ignorantly, I sent 500 rounds downrange chasing loads. Occasionally it would group. Never fired more than 5-6 rounds in a row without letting the barrel cool. I was using mainly H4350, but tried a bit of H4831 and RE17. Mainly ran 162amax between 2800-2900, 175smk between 2700-2800 and 180smk between 2650-2750. I ran ladders to establish max loads, and got pressure signs a few times including ejector marks, and a soot ring around the primer once or twice.

Any theories on why this barrel got fucked so fast? I'm drawing a blank.

 

[7mmRM]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Seems very odd. Bad steel to begin with?

 

[bohem]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Sounds to me like it was fubar to start. This highlights a point that makes me somewhat hesitant for melonite.

It may have been a toad out of the gate but the manufacturer is going to tell you to get bent if you melonited the thing and then bring it back.

Sorry to hear this about the barrel.



Couple dumb questions:

Have you tried cleaning the living shit outta it?
Send me a PM and I might be able to help you out

Water capacity of fired brass
Barrel length from bolt face to crown

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Bohem

Throughout the 550 rounds fired, I cleaned it really well a couple times. At ~250 rounds, I decided the barrel was no good, but I rechecked everything and found a couple "leads" on potential trouble, and chased some loads that showed promise.

Because the barrel was sent to the maker and found to be firecracker, I'm thinking a cleaning isn't gonna help.

"MALLARD" here helped me out with quick load about a month ago. My case capacity is 66.1gr H2O, average of 3 cases. According to QL, I probably hit 70-75ksi a few times, but was generally in the 65ksi zone.

I'm definitely a bit gunshy on melonite after this. I know they say the process can exacerbate throat erosion if it's already started...but I wouldn't have thought 45 rounds would have erosion.

 

[bohem]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Thus far I only have been an outsider watching those more brave than I try melonite on precision rifle barrels. I have a barrel that's in transit right now which I'll be turning into a 7 Creedmoor and I plan on sending it off for Salt bath Nitriding via Losok Customs as I've spent a lot of time on the phone with the owner and he has about a decade of SBN work under his belt with his own rifles, he has detailed notes, round counts, etc etc from his work and it's better support data than I've heard come back from other Melonite places.

I talked to him and to Mark Gordon about the process and both of them said that with a premium barrel that's cut with a good reamer the "break in" process can be dropped.

Now, a buddy has a 6.5CM that Mark Gordon built last year and he has 1900+rd through it, when we borescoped it we cannot ascertain any visible wear on the throat and that's what finally pushed me over the edge on the SBN treatment to try it. I saw my 6.5CM tube after 2000rd with an untreated barrel and my buddy and I shoot the same exact load. My old barrel looked like Death Valley's lakebed. It still shot great til 4600rd but the damage was apparent at 2000rd

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Yeah, I've noticed Mark skips the "break-in" for melonite. Not implying that's bad, by the way. The logic is sound. A fresh sharp reamer cuts a nice leade.

I'm going to have him cut a 7CM barrel for me soon, too.

Hard to decide exactly how to approach SBN...there just isn't much hard data out there to go on. I didn't think 45 rounds was too many (obviously).

 

[bohem]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Yeah, I wouldn't think so either.

I've also heard stories about barrels that had 800+rd through them, the owner decided to try his hand at lapping a factory barrel and so he lapped it up, then sent it off to get SBN treatment. It's a 30-06 that now has over 9000rd through it and it's going strong. But, I haven't seen solid data to support that one, it was just a story I was told while coaching one day.

I'm not going to break in the barrel before I sent it to Losok and we'll see what he thinks. I'm planning to keep copious notes on the project, gotta start somewhere.

 

[RobG]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Damn, thats the shits. Who will I go to for help with mine now

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

a .284 should go 1200 rnds. before set-back.....I load 180 bergers at 3000 ft/sec.(32") and get that.On my 3rd. barrel.....and they all have done that.
Now when I used a 6.5x.284 I set back at 700 rnds.Did have 1 6.5 barrel go in 400 rnds. during a match.... blu up bullets...maker would`nt stand behind it.I say bad steel.....
I don`t use them barrels no more....
bill larson

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Turbo54,

Have you had a smith look at it yet? If not would you mind shipping it to me? I would like to see this barrel first hand.

Robert

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

The barrelmaker has it right now. They also chambered it for me. If I get it back, sure I'll send it to you.

 

[steve123]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

In response to your request to elaberate over in the Meloniting thread.

I went through a equally frustrating experience like that one time. Turned out the barrel had gradually come loose. I actually read a thread here on the Hide which gave a clue about the problem, went out to the safe grabbed the barrel and cracked it loose with my bare hands, LOL. I shot 500 rounds, bought a new scope and new rings during the whole process. Probably 6 months from when I noticed the problem till it got fixed.

This happened on a custom built AR-15 upper.

The upper shot very well to begin with and did so for about 400 rounds. Then I noticed I'd have to resight the rifle in every time I went out shooting. It'd be off .2-.3 mil in any direction. Half the time it would group well and the other half not but never more than 1 moa or so. So I started trouble shooting the problem. I checked everything that someone would usually check for, everything was fine as far as I could tell. The scope rings weren't high quality so I bought some Nightforce rings, that didn't help. The scope wasn't that great either so I bought a USO, still no joy. I tried finding another load not knowing what else to do. Surprisingly it would shoot the new load pretty good at first. The POI shifts began to get worse which is when I ran across the thread I was mentioning about a guy having identical problems.

Apparently the barrel had finally loosened up enough that I was able to crack it loose from the barrel extension. A friend thinks the gunsmith that did the chambering tried to compensate for a short chamber by not torquing the barrel down to spec??? Who knows.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Steve - how does the barrel come loose and then hand twisted off on an AR when the gas tube goes through a notch in the barrel nut AND the barrel is indexed via a pin in the receiver, keeping it from rotating no matter how loose the barrel nut is?

Was the barrel loose in the extension?

 

[KYS]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve - how does the barrel come loose and then hand twisted off on an AR when the gas tube goes through a notch in the barrel nut AND the barrel is indexed via a pin in the receiver, keeping it from rotating no matter how loose the barrel nut is?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Was the barrel loose in the extension?</span> </div></div>

Had to be 9H. You cant twist the extension in the receiver. It resides in that notch plus the gas tube goes thru the barrel nut.

 

[steve123]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve - how does the barrel come loose and then hand twisted off on an AR when the gas tube goes through a notch in the barrel nut AND the barrel is indexed via a pin in the receiver, keeping it from rotating no matter how loose the barrel nut is?

Was the barrel loose in the extension? </div></div>

Yep, loose in the extension.

I was only able to turn the barrel so far, just loose is all. The tube stopped the barrel from rotating more than a 1/8th of a turn or so.

 

[Grand]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Cut rifled barrel?

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cut rifled barrel? </div></div>

Yep. A highly acclaimed, premium barrel.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

There is/was a very large named maker that got into a bad batch of steel. Very soft to say the least. 2-260's I built had these barrels on them and they shot fine for 1,000 to 1,200 rounds then, poof, all gone. Another shooter I know had a 243 go south at 600 or so rounds, same barrel maker.

Fire cracking is a bi-product/result of heat, plain and simple. If your throat/barrel is fire cracked setting it back wont help, it's toast. The melonite thing still scares me as I've been told that the heat the metal is subjected to is hot enough to change the temper.

Another thing to consider is with some powders more heat is generated like H4350 vs H4831 or H1000. A stiff charge of H4350 will burn and real quick like.

I wont say whose barrel I'm talking about in my opening paragraph but, my sig line has my barrel maker of choice listed. They're all I order now.

 

[nauta]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Has that manufacturer informed people that ordered from that lot or might someone having a new barrel chambered from an in stock unit be ordering one of the problem barrels?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is/was a very large named maker that got into a bad batch of steel. Very soft to say the least. 2-260's I built had these barrels on them and they shot fine for 1,000 to 1,200 rounds then, poof, all gone. Another shooter I know had a 243 go south at 600 or so rounds, same barrel maker.

Fire cracking is a bi-product/result of heat, plain and simple. If your throat/barrel is fire cracked setting it back wont help, it's toast. The melonite thing still scares me as I've been told that the heat the metal is subjected to is hot enough to change the temper.

Another thing to consider is with some powders more heat is generated like H4350 vs H4831 or H1000. A stiff charge of H4350 will burn and real quick like.

I wont say whose barrel I'm talking about in my opening paragraph but, my sig line has my barrel maker of choice listed. They're all I order now. </div></div>

 

[Lofty]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Thats disconcerting.

I just built a new switch barrel rifle, one barrel Obermyer, one Kreiger.

Wondering if one of my barrels falls into that batch.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nauta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has that manufacturer informed people that ordered from that lot or might someone having a new barrel chambered from an in stock unit be ordering one of the problem barrels?</div></div>

No they have'nt

 

[nauta]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No they have'nt </div></div>
I don't know the whole story but that sounds like some BS to me. I hope the OP can fill us in on either the brand or what that company is doing so that consumers shouldn't be worried. I double checked the invoice for the build I have in progress and I'm glad to see that it specifies a Bartlein barrel.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

The purpose of my thread was not to drag a barrel maker's name through the mud...but rather, create a forum for ideas on why a barrel might go south so fast.

I will say the outfit that made my barrel has cross referenced the serial number of my barrel to the steel heat lot, and says that lot is "all clear".

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Damn, someone PM what maker had problems just so I can be aware if I have issues with my new barrel. Some companies just have bad luck, if it's a bad batch of steel I don't see why they wouldn't make it right if it's one of the top cut rifled companies.

 

[LRI]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, I've noticed Mark skips the "break-in" for melonite. Not implying that's bad, by the way. The logic is sound. A fresh sharp reamer cuts a nice leade.

I'm going to have him cut a 7CM barrel for me soon, too.

Hard to decide exactly how to approach SBN...there just isn't much hard data out there to go on. I didn't think 45 rounds was too many (obviously). </div></div>

I call BS.

A reamer, endmill, drill, etc. No matter HOW SHARP, it leaves a burr. The material hardness alone demands that it does. About the only machining operations that don't leave a burr is EDM and honing. Hell, even a hone can do it.

If you are creating tool pressure, your plasticizing the material to some degree and this is what causes rolled edges, burrs, and other forms of surface inclusion. The variance lies in the hardness of the material along with cutter material, geometry, surface speed, feed rate, etc.

Doubt it? Take a brand new drill made of the latest greatest material and drill a hole in Delrin plastic. Now drill a hole in 6061 AL with the same drill. Finish up with a piece of prehard 4140.

The burrs will vary with the materials being machined. Same thing with a reamer, endmill, etc.

Point is, you are rolling an unwanted edge. Regardless if the naked eye sees it or not, it's there.

The break in process allows this burr to erode off via heat and pressure generated by the propellant. Failure to do so can very well extend the wear in period of the throat because now its more tolerant to the heat/pressure due to the elevated surface hardness of the material. Maybe it will vaporize into plasma and cause no damage. Maybe that steel will cool/condense and stick somewhere on the barrel further up the bore. (Basically acting like a wart for copper to lodge itself onto. Now you have a barrel prone to excessive fouling. A basic fundamental of materials hardness is you want several points differential between the two. Copper rubbing on copper leads to more metal transfer. Buy stock in Sweets!

) Maybe it'll stay solid, break off, and deposit itself into the jacket material of the projectile and act like a car key on the shiny fender of a new car.

just remember its now approaching 60+ Rockwell when it does it. In its parent state it was 34 at best.

If your going to surface nitride a barrel (which is all that melonite is) then shoot it just enough to get it to quit copper fouling. Treat it, clean the piss out of it, then go shoot.

Don't reinvent the wheel to solve a problem that you can't solve.

C.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, someone PM what maker had problems just so I can be aware if I have issues with my new barrel. </div></div>

Your PM'd, check it.

 

[jbell]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Makes a lot of sense. Chad, what are your thoughts on melonite?

 

[LRI]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

We've only done one barrel. It was last year. The gun shoots as well as anything else does. Owner has done well with it in competition. But it's not shooting any better than any other gun we've put together so it's a bit inconclusive.

If your a guy hunting for longevity and you think this will work and it its worth risking a barrel, then go for it.

I say risking a barrel because if you lined up the advocates on one side of the street and the lynch mob on the other, it would seem to be about equal based on the threads/posts I've seen. I don't pay a great deal of attention to it because customers aren't beating our door to have it done.

So long story short, while it sounds like a gift from the heavens I don't have a good grasp on just how beneficial/harmful it is.

I do know that tools leave burrs and hard burrs take longer to wear off than soft ones.

C.

 

[jbell]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I do know that tools leave burrs and hard burrs take longer to wear off than soft ones.

C. </div></div>

Very good point especially in this light. Thanks for the input.

 

[steve123]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Off the subject a little but the gunsmith that did my 30 cal used a very fine honing tool attached to a rod to polish out the burrs left after throating for longer bullets. This particular barrel was capable of benchrest accuracy when new.

It looked like this except was the appropriate size for the job. Seems to me it would be better than shooting the burrs out then having to get the barrel super clean in preparation for Meloniting.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=647/Product/SHOTGUN-BARREL-POLISHING-FLEX-HONE-reg-

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In response to your request to elaberate over in the Meloniting thread.

I went through a equally frustrating experience like that one time. Turned out the barrel had gradually come loose. I actually read a thread here on the Hide which gave a clue about the problem, went out to the safe grabbed the barrel and cracked it loose with my bare hands, LOL. I shot 500 rounds, bought a new scope and new rings during the whole process. Probably 6 months from when I noticed the problem till it got fixed.

This happened on a custom built AR-15 upper.

The upper shot very well to begin with and did so for about 400 rounds. Then I noticed I'd have to resight the rifle in every time I went out shooting. It'd be off .2-.3 mil in any direction. Half the time it would group well and the other half not but never more than 1 moa or so. So I started trouble shooting the problem. I checked everything that someone would usually check for, everything was fine as far as I could tell. The scope rings weren't high quality so I bought some Nightforce rings, that didn't help. The scope wasn't that great either so I bought a USO, still no joy. I tried finding another load not knowing what else to do. Surprisingly it would shoot the new load pretty good at first. The POI shifts began to get worse which is when I ran across the thread I was mentioning about a guy having identical problems.

Apparently the barrel had finally loosened up enough that I was able to crack it loose from the barrel extension. A friend thinks the gunsmith that did the chambering tried to compensate for a short chamber by not torquing the barrel down to spec??? Who knows.</div></div>

Steve-

This is not uncommon with AR's to have the barrel come loose from the extension after melonite or salt bath nitriding.
The right way to process an AR barrel is to remove the barrel extension from the barrel and then clean it and re-assemble after processing.
The reason that the barrels come apart has to do with the salt that gets left in the thread junction.
Over time and repeated firings, the salt acts as a lubricant and the barrel slowly loosens with use.
The solution is to take apart any AR barrel that was processed while assembled, clean the threads and torque it all back together.

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is/was a very large named maker that got into a bad batch of steel. Very soft to say the least. 2-260's I built had these barrels on them and they shot fine for 1,000 to 1,200 rounds then, poof, all gone. Another shooter I know had a 243 go south at 600 or so rounds, same barrel maker. </div></div>

Was this about 2 years ago?
I think I may have run into one of those barrels as well.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was this about 2 years ago?
I think I may have run into one of those barrels as well. </div></div>

The problem was the steel itself, too soft. The barrels were from about 1.5 years back but chambered last year.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Back on subject a little.

The .284win. barrel in question was made by us. We are going to replace the barrel for Turbo54. I know he is stuck and out.

We compared it to a couple of .284win. barrels that I and JJ are running on our F-Class guns. JJ barrel has a much closer round count as Turbo54's does. Turbo54's barrels has like 3x the wear compared to what we have here. Now what caused it? Not sure.

Talking to people in the industry about the Melonite treatment etc...and Joel at MMI.

What we found is on S.S. barrels they process at 2x the rate of C.M. barrels if I understood that correctly. I was told if it was done to long this will make the S.S. material brittle. My guess that will accelerate the wear. Also in doing R&D barrels for a manufacturer a couple of years ago and the feed back I received that yes there are several places that do the Melonite but it is not being done consistently from place to place.

Also the Melonite helps with corrosion resistance in C.M. steel but S.S. looses it's corrosion resistance. That was interesting. Just a F.Y.I. on that.

Also after the barrel is Melonited you have to clean it out properly before using it. Does everyone do this? If not again you have another variable.

I was told to clean the barrel out with 0000 steel wool and oil. That's not a typo. That's what I was told to do. So I did do it that way to my personal barrel. I pulled the cleaning rod back and forth approx. 200 times. I stopped approx. half way thru and cleaned the barrel out and looked it in a bore scope etc..I was told you want to see it nice and shiny looking. You want the dullness out of it. Also when you clean it if the patches are coming out kinda dirty looking (when you get it back from Melonite) the barrel is not clean and not ready to shoot. You want the patches to come out clean looking. I in no way shape or form recommend this as a normal cleaning procedure for a normal barrel. Keep reading.

I just started doing my own testing on a barrel that I had the Melonite treatment done. It's a .260 Rem. barrel and it was done by MMI.

At this point in time I will say this. If you take our barrel or any other manufacturers barrel and have secondary work done to it weather it be Melonite, hard chrome plating or some miracle bore polishing operation done to it etc...how can the barrel maker be held responsible when the gun doesn't shoot well? We have no control over what is being done to it.

As I shoot my barrel and start collecting data I'm going to make a post about what I see and how it's working. I did shoot it (29 rounds) before I sent it out so I could see how it shot. I shot 3 different powder charges (same powder), 5 different bullets and all the rounds went to the same point of aim at 114 yards. First group with Berger 130vld's shot a .185" group. If this barrel is wrecked from the Melonite treatment I'm going to cry the blues!!

The Melonite treatment will make the surface of the barrel (which includes the bore) very hard. Approx. 70Rc. You can't scratch it with a file. It comes out black looking in color (basically the same as a black cerakote finish). So no need to do any finishing work afterwards.

Onto Roscoe's comments about some bad steel etc...it wasn't ours and I won't say who's. I know Roscoe didn't direct it towards us and no offense etc...was taken. He is a great customer! Wish I had 10 more like him!

Talk to you all later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[*Nine]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

I had a 7WSM barrel melonited last year and I didn't even make it to 550 rounds before the barrel was shot. It would tear bullets apart as soon as it got warm, though if you shot very slowly and kept the barrel cool it would shoot pretty well. Upon inspection my smith informed me that there was serious firecracking in the bore. My total round count at that time was like 250 or so rounds. The barrel tore the bullets apart right from the beginning though, so those 250 rounds were spent trying to figure out what was going on. The barrel wasn't one of Bartlein's units. I just figured I'd share this story since you mentioned the firecracking after the meloniting.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a 7WSM barrel melonited last year and I didn't even make it to 550 rounds before the barrel was shot. It would tear bullets apart as soon as it got warm, though if you shot very slowly and kept the barrel cool it would shoot pretty well. Upon inspection my smith informed me that there was serious firecracking in the bore. My total round count at that time was like 250 or so rounds. The barrel tore the bullets apart right from the beginning though, so those 250 rounds were spent trying to figure out what was going on. The barrel wasn't one of Bartlein's units. I just figured I'd share this story since you mentioned the firecracking after the meloniting. </div></div>

That's interesting and thanks for sharing! Turbo's barrel throat is very rough. Like I said before comparing it to a our .284 barrels here it has way more wear in it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Guys, I've received numerous PM's concerning my barrel statement. Several barrels have been asked about and I'll make them public. These barrels are all fine and I havent heard or seen anything negative with them. I've built rifles using all of them and the rifles hammer.

Bartlien
Rock
Brux

I've been using Bartlein for a couple of years now as one of two barrel makers that I'd reccomend. Over the last year or so I switched over to Bartlein 100% for two reasons.

#1. The rifles I build with their barrels just flat out shoot. I mean stupid small groups, close and far. Bartlein barreled rifles have produced groups better than the guarentee I offer.

#2. The entire Bartlein crew is 100% driven to producing the absolute best barrel money can buy. Their customer service is solid gold, hands down. I've known Frank from the Krieger days and he's always been great to deal with. The guy really knows his stuff.

 

[jbell]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Frank, first off thank you for a great product and second thanks for the info! Please keep us up to speed on your 260 project. Are you going to start a thread on it or have you already and I have missed it? I am very intrested in it! Thanks again and keep the good intel coming.

 

[JB02]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Frank, I appreciate your candor! Thank you!

The takeaway as I see it is that there is a very real performance risk with meloniting barrels. This thread has convinced me to wait until there is an undisputed, demonstrable benefit for the extra cost involved, and a clear, unambiguous manufacturing process is known throughout the industry.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LT JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, I appreciate your candor! Thank you!

The takeaway as I see it is that there is a very real performance risk with meloniting barrels. This thread has convinced me to wait until there is an undisputed, demonstrable benefit for the extra cost involved, and a clear, unambiguous manufacturing process is known throughout the industry.</div></div>

are you kidding me? Everyone of my guns are melonited and I have zero problems with them.

I think the real issue here is that the melonite was done by the geniuses in ohio and not MMI

hard to deny the research

 

[JB02]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LT JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, I appreciate your candor! Thank you!

The takeaway as I see it is that there is a very real performance risk with meloniting barrels. This thread has convinced me to wait until there is an undisputed, demonstrable benefit for the extra cost involved, and a clear, unambiguous manufacturing process is known throughout the industry.</div></div>

are you kidding me? Everyone of my guns is melonited and I have zero problems with them.

I think the real issue here is that the melonite was done by the geniuses in ohio and not MMI

hard to deny the research </div></div>

No, I'm not kidding. There's a difference between running a precisely controlled scientific experiment as shown in the research article (thank you, BTW) and perfecting a six-sigma fabrication process. From what I've read in this thread there's too much variation in the meloniting process for me to feel comfortable with it. This hobby costs too much money to risk going through what the OP endured. Simply stated, I need to be convinced if I ask any reputable gunsmith with the means to melonite my barrel that I will receive unambiguous and quantifiable performance gain. The anecdotes I have read on this thread don't give me the "warm fuzzy" that this is necessarily the case.

Perhaps after I witness how my friend's melonited barrel performs over the next year my opinion will change. I'm glad that you have had success with it.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back on subject a little.

The .284win. barrel in question was made by us. We are going to replace the barrel for Turbo54. I know he is stuck and out. </div></div>

Thank you, Frank. Honestly, this is more than fair, as any post-processing of your product is totally out of your control. Again, thank you much.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What we found is on S.S. barrels they process at 2x the rate of C.M. barrels if I understood that correctly. I was told if it was done to long this will make the S.S. material brittle. My guess that will accelerate the wear. Also in doing R&D barrels for a manufacturer a couple of years ago and the feed back I received that yes there are several places that do the Melonite but it is not being done consistently from place to place.</div></div>

This is also my understanding. Before sending out parts for nitride, I did my due diligence, and researched it heavily. After speaking to the metal processer, it was absolutely acknowledged that carbon steel and stainless had to be separated and treated differently. I labeled my parts properly, but perhaps they goofed and treated my stainless stuff with carbon steel parts.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also after the barrel is Melonited you have to clean it out properly before using it. Does everyone do this? If not again you have another variable.

I was told to clean the barrel out with 0000 steel wool and oil. That's not a typo. That's what I was told to do. So I did do it that way to my personal barrel. I pulled the cleaning rod back and forth approx. 200 times. I stopped approx. half way thru and cleaned the barrel out and looked it in a bore scope etc..I was told you want to see it nice and shiny looking. You want the dullness out of it. Also when you clean it if the patches are coming out kinda dirty looking (when you get it back from Melonite) the barrel is not clean and not ready to shoot. You want the patches to come out clean looking. I in no way shape or form recommend this as a normal cleaning procedure for a normal barrel. </div></div>

Barrels come back from this process absolutely filthy, and are TOUGH to get clean. I didn't use steel wool, and in fact was provided no indication on how to attack the filth. I used hot soapy water and a nylon brush, and stroked and stroked and stroked, dipping/rinsing my brush every couple strokes. Then I'd use a little IOSSO paste on a patch, on a spear-tip Jag and stroke that a pass or two, then go back to the soapy water. Even without a borescope, I could see some kind of dull film in the grooves that was slowly going away the more I worked on it. Getting the grooves shiny and beautiful took hours.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a 7WSM barrel melonited last year and I didn't even make it to 550 rounds before the barrel was shot. It would tear bullets apart as soon as it got warm, though if you shot very slowly and kept the barrel cool it would shoot pretty well. Upon inspection my smith informed me that there was serious firecracking in the bore. My total round count at that time was like 250 or so rounds. The barrel tore the bullets apart right from the beginning though, so those 250 rounds were spent trying to figure out what was going on. The barrel wasn't one of Bartlein's units. I just figured I'd share this story since you mentioned the firecracking after the meloniting. </div></div>

Are you willing/able to share details on:

How many rounds fired prior to nitride
How you cleaned after nitride
Who performed the nitride

??

 

[turbo54]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LT JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, I appreciate your candor! Thank you!

The takeaway as I see it is that there is a very real performance risk with meloniting barrels. This thread has convinced me to wait until there is an undisputed, demonstrable benefit for the extra cost involved, and a clear, unambiguous manufacturing process is known throughout the industry.</div></div>

are you kidding me? Everyone of my guns is melonited and I have zero problems with them.

I think the real issue here is that the melonite was done by the geniuses in ohio and not MMI

hard to deny the research </div></div>

I agree with both of you, and thanks for posting that link to the scientific study...very interesting.

As Chad mentioned earlier, there sure seems to be a real split between folks that swear by this treatment and the other group (lynch mob, I think he said) that have nothing but negative things to say about it. It would be nice to put together a matrix that could correlate satisfaction with nitride, and who performed the work.

I'm pretty gunshy about nitriding barrels right now, and only partly because of my 284. Along with my 284, I sent my CBI 308 Savage barrel also. As I mentioned in my first post, I had 45 rounds through my 284 before sending it out, and it never did group that great. Whether that was because the barrel wasn't great to begin with, or I didn't have a good load worked up, or whatever....bottom line was I didn't know *for sure* the barrel was a hammer pre-nitride.

However....my CBI 308 barrel WAS an absolute fucking hammer. I had 250 rounds through it and it would just stack shots at 200 yards. I had it nitrided thinking this great 308 barrel would last FOREVER. I only took it out for the first time (after nitride) last week. Ran some ladders and OCW tests. Hit the range this weekend to zero in on some "nodes". Took it out to 600 yards today and it's a fucking 2MOA gun.

So, I can say with 100% certainty that nitriding fucked that barrel.

I can also say with 100% certainty the only shop that will be nitriding barrels for me in the future is MMI. I've yet to hear anything negative about them. Nonetheless, like I said before, I'm steamed and pretty gunshy on the nitriding right now. There is a little to be gained, and a LOT to lose.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, first off thank you for a great product and second thanks for the info! Please keep us up to speed on your 260 project. Are you going to start a thread on it or have you already and I have missed it? I am very intrested in it! Thanks again and keep the good intel coming. </div></div>

I thought there was a thread started and I made a post saying I was getting ready to start playing with one but that was the extent of it.

I'll make a brand new thread when I get a little more data collected.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[*Nine]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you willing/able to share details on:

How many rounds fired prior to nitride
How you cleaned after nitride
Who performed the nitride

??</div></div>

I'm not exactly sure of the round count before nitriding. The rifle was barreled with a new barrel and then sent off to MMI for nitriding before I took possession of it. Assuming the smith test fired it before sending it off I'd guess it only had a couple of rounds on it. I don't know if the smith cleaned it after nitriding, but when I took possession of the rifle they made no mention at all of any special cleaning that had to be done to the barrel before shooting it. When I brought it back after seeing how it tore apart bullets they never asked about cleaning. Since they never asked about cleaning even after I reported problems I'll assume they were unaware there was any special cleaning procedure. I had cleaned the barrel during this time using normal methods and nothing out of the ordinary jumped out at me.

 

[Ring]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

my 260 shillen had 50 or so down it, sent it to H&M for nitride, in 1 year i have shot 1000 heavy loads with h4350, it still shoots .5moa

 

[jbell]

Re: Shot-out 284 barrel in 550 rounds?

Sounds great, I just found that other thread I must of missed it.