shot worse than expected with a pretty good setup -- please help with weakest link

[Performify]

I'm going to do a longer After Action Report on the class i just took, but because this might be a stupid question, and because it's going to take me longer to format the AAR, wanted to post this while it was fresh, and while I'm still frustrated.

If you don't want all the backstory and context, just scroll down to the first picture of the gun that follows the bold/underline text, and see the three questions in bold from there.

I'm relatively new to long range shooting. I've taken four long range classes (same class, four times -- single day with a 60-round course of fire, 4x5 @ 200, 300 and 1x20 at 500. Taking the class is one of the few ways you can shoot 500 yards close to where I live). I've shot the course three times with my MRAD (using the 6.5CM configuration) and shot routinely 0.5 MOA to 1 MOA averaging repeatability around 0.75 MOA.

This time out I wanted to shoot my Seekins SP10. Because I wanted to shoot it suppressed, in part, while I'm still waiting for the Thunderbeast can to get released from NFA jail that will pair with my MRAD. Because I had a very good supply of .308 ammo and was running low on 6.5CM, I decided to pair my Seekins SP10-308 upper with my SP10-6.5 lower (the superior PRS stock, and the attachment point for the rear monopod).

Besided fighting issues with my suppressor, I generally didn't shoot as well as I expected. The gun is new to me, and I'm generally new to long range, but still.

My best group of the day this time out was one 2" group at 200 yards, my first, 1 MOA. Every group thereafter opened up even wider. my second best group was 6" at 300 yards, 2 MOA. At least two groups were closer to 3 MOA.


2" at 200yd [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4487\/37674829796_6531fce74d_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]












6" at 300yd [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4502\/37674832826_aa0bfc4c57_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]












Contrast with 1.5" at 300yr with the MRAD: [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4039\/35352173430_c8f05684af_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]









For further context, this was my F-class target @ 500 from the second time I took the class in November (10-ring = 5", 9-ring = 10", for scale). [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4451\/37465682940_e451a762e1_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]












And this was my F-class target @ 500 from the third time I took the class in November (very high wind day, for reference) [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4483\/37723173861_3eea568a61_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]












if you feel you need more backstory, I posted a longer AAR from the first time I took the class that includes my best 0.5 MOA 5-shot group (1.5" at 300yd pictured above).

today was my fourth time taking the class, and as mentioned I was running Seekins AR10 (18" 308 upper on the 6.5CM lower with the PRS) and went out to shoot suppressed.

I fought a couple problems:

1) my Silencerco Specwar 762 (ASR mount) would not lock up tight. I have maybe 200 rounds down range with this can in total from new. Some quick googling on the range led me to believe either I've managed to carbon foul the teeth on the mount in very short order, or my mounting ring (e.g. the teeth on the can) is possibly out of spec. My shooting partner and friend was also running a silencerco asr can, and we verified that my can wouldn't lock on his muzzle device, and his can would lock on my muzzle device, so it's not an issue of the muzzle device. I tried a field clean with CLP and copper bore brush, to no effect.

2) I consistently shot much worse than expected, besides the one 1 MOA group pictured above (my first five shots of the day), everything else was 2 MOA at best and sometimes 3 MOA. And it wasn't just an otherwise reasonable group with one flier, it would be two or even three of the rounds widely dispersed.

It wasn't just the shooter -- my friend, who was consistently shooting 0.5 - 0.75 MOA all day with his RPR (custom barrel and hand loads, shooting 6.5 Lapua), had generally the same 2MOA or greater results when he took two turns on my gun.

I shot the first course of fire (4x strings of 5 at 200 yards) with the can threaded on, and the locking lever engaged -- if you grabbed the can by hand and twisted it with strong pressure, it would twist against the teeth and spin loose, but just shooting 5 rounds single fire it didn't seem to back itself off any, so I wasn't that worried about it.

Because I was all over the place -- the instructor knew from my previous three times taking his class that i could shoot much better than I was displaying especially at 200yd -- he suggested I take the can off, especially given the risk of a baffle strike without the QD fully locking. So I shot the 300 yard groups and the 500 without the can. My groups may have improved a bit once the can was removed, but were never better than 2 MOA the rest of the day, and never ever approached the 1MOA group from the first go.

I was able to put together my best shooting of the day at 500 yards, but for perspective I was NOT using an F-class target and was using the standard NRA 500 yard target (10 ring = 10") [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4485\/37674825556_14ee782c7d_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]












That's a 189-6x at 500 using a non-F target (x-ring = 5", 10-ring = 10") [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4496\/37465364960_f03ef43b9b_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]








Compare this to my 198-8x using the same target from my first time out with my MRAD: [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4232\/35608774211_b9a427f9d7_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]







189-6x doesn't seem terrible, but the instructor was pretty clear that with the 10 ring being 2 MOA at 500, he'd still consider the 189-6x to be less than expected performance for the gun, based on it's price point and how well i was shooting the last times I've taken the class -- and that it wasn't just me, given that my buddy had similar results.

I was happier after 500 considering I was shooting 2-3 MOA all day -- I was very dejected after shooting consistently 2-3+ at 300yd especially.

Which leads me to my maybe stupid questions.

Here's a rundown on the gear, following obligatory pic: [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/farm5.staticflickr.com\/4447\/37052876273_f0cecf1ecd_z.jpg"}[/IMG2]







Rifle: Seekins Precision SP10-18" in .308 upper, using the PRS stock equipped lower from my SP10-6.5CM
Scope: Bushnell Elite DMR-IIi in Spuhr QDP-4602 mount
Bipod: BT10-LW17 V8 Atlas Bipod with BT12-QK monopod
Ammo: Prvi PPU 308 Winchester Match Ammunition PP32 175 Grain FMJ BT

I know the ammo is not the best in the world, but I also didn't think it was the worst.

The scope was mounted by Tim "Moon" Roberts of Crescent Customs, who also timed the muzzle brake. So I'm pretty sure both of those are rock solid. I yanked every way on the scope just to make sure, but it appeared rock solid.

The bipod was mounted with a Bravo Company keymod nylon rail. It was all I had at the time, I ordered in an aluminum rail section but it hadn't arrived in time for the class. I note now from Bravo's website on the product that it's not meant to be load bearing. Would having a nylon rail attachment point for the bipod make that much difference in accuracy? If so, why? I wouldn't think the bipod being in a different place on every shot would affect things that much. Unless it's literally not able to hold the recoil during the shot and causing the front end to move while the bullet is still in the barrel?

The rifle was under gassed a little for the load. Without the can on, it would not always eject reliably. Wasn't really an issue since I was feeding one round by hand, but I include for completeness.

Trigger is still stock, whatever came from Seekins. Instructor said it wasn't great and recommended one thing I definitely consider should be a trigger upgrade. I thought from the Seekins site that they already tuned the trigger for 3.5 pounds, but I'll do some more research and maybe call Seekins CS with my serials to see if maybe some of the earlier rifles didn't get as good of triggers. Various reviews indicate it's supposed to be a single stage CMC trigger and generally everyone praised it, so I'm not sure what to think.

Possibly dumb questions:

Is any of this gear weakness, problem with the nylon rail mount point, potential problem with the rifle setup, problem with the ammo, or just unskilled shooter? Or some combination of small things adding up to larger things?

I'm pretty confident the rifle itself is good, as I've shot it very well off hand and while seated at a bench (without a rest or bipod). Only at short distances but still enough to say that it's probably not a base 2 or 3 MOA rifle. So it's almost certainly some aspect or combination of the setup / configuration / tuning I would guess.

Secondary dumb question - would the silencer not engaging the QD teeth have made that much difference in the early 200-yard shooting? Or wouldn't the can be OK from an accuracy perspective if it was still tightly threaded after shooting each 5-round group?

My plan from here:

1) when the aluminum keymod rail section arrives, replace the nylon and re-mount the bipod
2) verify everything is torqued on the scope / mount just to make sure
3) get several different types / brands of real match ammo (Federal, Hornady, etc) along with some more of the Prvi since I have it
4) go shoot this total of varying ammo across 100, 200 and 300 and report back

(don't have a good spot to shoot at 500 except for the next class opportunity and/or going to shoot in F-class competitively)

Probably will look at adding a SSA-E trigger at some point in the future, assuming the process above produces desired results.

in parallel, for completeness
A) clean the heck out of the ASR engagement teeth on the Specwar and see if it engages on this rifle or any of my other mounts
B) if not, call SilencerCo for warranty service (others reported this issue, Silencerco always took care of them).

Any thoughts / feedback appreciated, either on the plan of action and/or the potential impact of the nylon mount and/or ammo and/or anything else.

Thanks all, in advance, for any wisdom, thoughts, advice and/or feedback. Even if it's just to tell me I suck and need more trigger time.

 

[WB300]

I think you are on the right track. Think of every possible variable and verify/eliminate each one at a time. I am by no means an expert. I owe most of everything i know to the Hide. The only other things i would suggest to check are: clean the chamber/throat/bore, and check your fundamentals for shooting a semi vs bolt (this one just about drove me to quit shooting).

Keep us informed of your progress. It's threads like this that help me learn to diagnose, correct, and improve. Good luck.

Bill

 

[308pirate]

When my shooting deteriorates, the first that I check isn't my gear. The first thing I check is the correctness of my position and technique.

I recommend that course of action here too.

 

[SubOptimal]

I have a couple of suggestions, at least one of which will help but may generate some push back.
1. Ditch the 175s, you don't need them for 500 yards and the 168 FGMM is optimized for 600 yard shooting. You may or may not see an improvement, that is up to your gun more than anything.
2. See if you can get a smaller bull to work with, that big circle is doing you no favors when it comes to holding consistent POA.
3. A note on 2 above, when shooting at relatively short distances, I find it much easier to hold the left or right edge of the target and adjust my windage to move POI to the center. I find this edge hold to be much more consistent than trying to quarter a big old circle. Deviation left or right of the edge or up and down is looking at the same spot rather than shifting the focus of your eye to 2 different places on your reticle to insure you are centered.
4. I hate monopods at the rear of the stock with a passion. Switch to a loosely packed bag and learn to work with it. That may be just me but I find I'm screwing around with the monopod too often, a bag, or even a balled fist suits me much better.

 

[Performify]

Thanks all for the input and advice.

SubOptimal - Seekins CS also recommended a 168-gr match grade ammo for best results.

So maybe the combination of not-ideal bullet weight and not top of the line match ammo, combined with shooter inexperience, and maybe the bipod mount contributing as well...

And you're right about the rear bag -- I need to switch to a rear bag if I want to get into F-class anyways.

 

[tnichols]

My experience is a big frame gasser will be a bit more particular accuracy wise based on the ammo. My GAP10 (308) is no exception. Find a load that YOUR rifle likes, and buy cases of it.

Flaws in your fundamentals are exaggerated with a big gasser as well. Make sure you rebuild position and make every shot its own event. You can get a little sloppy with a bolt gun, but a gasser will eat your lunch if we're not driving it properly.

Your post was detailed and informative. Good work.

 

[308pirate]

SubOptimal - Seekins CS also recommended a 168-gr match grade ammo for best results.

Every rifle is particular about a load or loads it likes. That recommendation means nothing.

Find ammo that YOUR particular rifle likes without regard to brand or bullet weight then put that shit out of your mind. Anything else is just a generalization of little value.

The main reason I reload for my precision rifles is because I don't have to wonder about ammo being the reason I miss.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You sound exactly like every other bolt guy shooting a gas gun...
It takes a lot of work.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I went through this recently during load testing and had very similar issues. The only thing that was in common with unexpected inconsistency was observed loosening of the bipod.

I'm pretty certain that loosening bipod wasted two range trips and several hundred handloads, rendering totally incomprehensible load development results. From now on, bipods are only going to be used for field shooting, and then, they will be cranked tight with a pliers. My precision shooting, from now on, will be done off a rest.

Now I can't say this is your problem, but it sure was mine.

Greg

 

[308pirate]

I went through this recently during load testing and had very similar issues. The only thing that was in common with unexpected inconsistency was observed loosening of the bipod.

I'm pretty certain that loosening bipod wasted two range trips and several hundred handloads, rendering totally incomprehensible load development results. From now on, bipods are only going to be used for field shooting, and then, they will be cranked tight with a pliers. My precision shooting, from now on, will be done off a rest.

Now I can't say this is your problem, but it sure was mine.

Greg

Probably ought to lose the cheesy Harris with its even cheesier sling stud attachment system. If you insist on a Harris, at least put a pic rail where the sling stud is now and replace the bipod's craptastic mounting system with this: http://www.badgerordnance.com/tacti.../low-profile-harris-mount-lphm-picatinny.html

 

[Lowlight]

I had a student recently, pretty decent AR10 set up, plus it was his second class with us. Watching him shoot, everything was right, his fundamentals under instruction and later personal supervision was perfect, but he was shooting 2" groups ...

Asked him to remove the Gemtech Suppressor from the rifle, and the groups immediately went to 1/2 MOA vs 2 MOA.

A gas gun will exploit your fundamentals, any weakness in your form and it will appear downrange as a bad group. But outside elements can be every bit as influential.

We have to see what you look like shooting, what your follow through looks like, how that is combined with your trigger control.

A large frame AR10 is not easy to shoot, it's not a bolt gun where you can get away with a bad form and poor fundamentals and still have a 3/8th-inch group. A gasser will punish you in the form of bad groups from the start.

 

[supercorndogs]

Probably ought to lose the cheesy Harris with its even cheesier sling stud attachment system. If you insist on a Harris, at least put a pic rail where the sling stud is now and replace the bipod's craptastic mounting system with this: http://www.badgerordnance.com/tacti.../low-profile-harris-mount-lphm-picatinny.html

LOL. Nothing wrong with a Harris.

 

[Badfinger]

FWIW - I see you have a monopod, I don't know how much experience you have with it on that gun but when having issues I go back to zero and first thing I would do is remove the pod. I have one on my AT and it's amazing on a hard topped bench but more difficult for me to shoot well on a mat on the ground.

 

[Praeger]

FWIW - I see you have a monopod, I don't know how much experience you have with it on that gun but when having issues I go back to zero and first thing I would do is remove the pod. I have one on my AT and it's amazing on a hard topped bench but more difficult for me to shoot well on a mat on the ground.

I agree with the opinions offered on monopods.

Were you using a rear bag when you shot better at the class? Was your friend also using the monopod when he shot your AR10 with similarly poor results? Unles you are shooting from a smooth surface - I’d pass on the monopod and use a rear bag.

 

[CoyoteKilo]

Pretty sure the harris is the most used bipod in PRS so dont let the harris hate get to your head OP. Id echo the statements on the rear bag, ditch the monopod and see if it helps.

 

[A5scott]

Reading about the monopod in this thread so I'll share my experience.
So I got my first bolt rifle last August, (MPA 6.5x47). I'm strength and dexterity compromised... my right arm and hand aren't so useful, so I was excited to have a monopod. I put about 500 rounds thru it, mostly off the monopod. Banging the gongs (2-3moa targets) out to 1300 yards was a piece of cake. The smaller 1 Moa targets out to 600 were doable with the monopod. I was shooting with my buddy out to 1700 yards, I used the monopod and I was missing the 30" gong by inches, no hits for me. My buddy, using a rear bag with my rifle, got two solid hits in a row after missing his first 2. For me, quick followup shots with the monopod are impossible as adjusting for cant and loading the bipod change the setting on the monopod.
I forced myself to start using a rear bag, and I was able to start hitting the 6" plate at 900 yards. Spotting and staying on the vicinity of the target was much easier with the rear bag.
So yes, in my experience, ditching the monopod and using the rear bag has tightened up my shooting for sure. I do like the monopod for bore sighting though lol.

Scott

 

[SporterII]

A rear bag that you can utilize easily. I work best when I can pinch it. That and the low bore height with the Harris stud mounted.

 

[sinister]

Success at any range is a result of consistency -- in your ammo, your weapon and scope, and your position and form.

"I wouldn't think the bipod being in a different place on every shot would affect things that much."

Using that Atlas and monopod your position will NEVER be the same. EVER. Try fore-and-aft sand bags. Tighten that suppressor up so it never moves. Or take it off and have a buddy kick the side of the barrel between every shot so you get the same result. (Seriously -- don't do that)

Ditch the Prvi for consistent competition ammo or handloads.

The lock time between an AR (with a hammer) vice a bolt action (with a striker) doesn't compare, even with the best AR triggers. You have a single-stage CMC. Mmm...OK.

Adjust your expectations. You want benchrest bolt-action precision from something you klooged together at the last minute with a lot of variables.

 

[Performify]

Thanks everyone for the continued responses. Yes, I was shooting the rear monopod on both my bolt gun and on the AR10.

I have taken the suggestions to heart. I purchased a rear bag, sent my suppressor off for repairs, I picked up and installed a National Match trigger (thanks Geissele for the great recent sale prices), and I've replaced the nylon rail mount with one of the aluminums. It's been below zero this week but as soon as the weather picks up I'll get back out, get a bunch more groups, and report back.

Thanks again.

 

[sinister]

Good luck! Let us know how your progress goes -- maybe once it's warmer.

 

[Baron26]

Probably ought to lose the cheesy Harris with its even cheesier sling stud attachment system. If you insist on a Harris, at least put a pic rail where the sling stud is now and replace the bipod's craptastic mounting system with this: http://www.badgerordnance.com/tacti.../low-profile-harris-mount-lphm-picatinny.html

Nothing wrong with the Harris. Are there better ways to attach than a sling stud, yes, but still not a deal killer.