Rifle Scopes Should I switch from USO to S&B?

[cega]

Lately I have been kicking around the idea of selling/trading one of my US Optics SN-3 5-25x58 scopes for a S&B 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC preferably with the Klein reticle or if not the P4F. I've been very happy with my US Optics scopes, have three of the 5-25x58 scopes all with Gen-II XR reticles so it isn't like I am suffering for poor optics. I think it is more wanting to be able to work with both side by side and see if S&B works better for me or not, how the glass compares etc.

So - for all of you who have or have had both USO and S&B tell me your thoughts, opinions etc. I am especially interested in hearing if you moved from USO to S&B, or the other way, in what influenced that move.

Thanks in advance,

Cega

 

[smschulz]

Having a couple USO's, a NF, a Leupy MK6, Swaro Z6i, and a bunch of others ......my S&B is by far the best scope I own.

 

[gafferq2xl]

It will boil down to personal preference. I've owned both. Some say S&B glass is better. I compared my SN3 2200 in a 58mm ERGO objective to a PMII 5-25X56 side by side and could tell no difference in the glass at a range of 950+ yards. Peoples eyes are different so ymmv. Option wise the USO is clearly in a class itself. I now own a Premier w/Gen II XR because I like the reticle best. JMHO

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Either the SB or the Kahles with the Mil4 would be what I would get into right now.

 

[CUSTOM1911FAN]

One thing to look at would be if there are any major military contracts had by USO? MIlspec durability would factor into my thinking. But, I don't know if USO does have military contracts or not. But I do know that the S&B scopes DO have U.S. military contracts (USMC, as I recall) that they can claim. Food for thought.

 

[DamnYuppie]

I had a S&B, ordered a USO to see how it compared and if I could run those in the future. The USO never got mounted, I took it out of the box, looked through it, put it back into the box, sold it, then bought another S&B.

That said I have been dying to try out the Khales but that is an expensive test drive....

 

[Target In Sight]

One thing to look at would be if there are any major military contracts had by USO? MIlspec durability would factor into my thinking. But, I don't know if USO does have military contracts or not. But I do know that the S&B scopes DO have U.S. military contracts (USMC, as I recall) that they can claim. Food for thought.

Seriously!?!?!?! So military contract means better product?!?!?!

 

[Captain Kirk]

You are really splitting hairs, it comes down to features and reticle choices. I currently run the S&B 5-25 P4F, not a fan of the reticle myself having switched from the PH Gen2 XR reticles. I don't dial for wind, never have so I prefer the .2 mil has marks for wind holds, the P4 is a 1 mil center so it is hard to get precise wind holds. JMO, if you go S&B do the H2CMR or Gen2 XR, but I don't feel your going to see night and day differences in glass quality like many state. I love my S&Bs,but also loved the USOs and PH scopes I have owned as well.

 

[RTH1800]

I have several of both and use both at least weekly.
My Opinion some of which is obvious.
USO is a bit crudely finished compared to S&B, but still a high quality offering.
USO is far more customer oriented than S&B so far as options go.
USO did but now does not offer green anodized scopes, which was really cool.
I had some problems with USO's reliability. It was taken care of but still ???
S&B seems to be far the better scope if you can live with their offerings.
If a scope is better than S&B, I doubt I could ever tell.

 

[cega]

That would be very cool to have the Gen-II XR reticle in an S&B scope but correct me if I'm wrong but in order to get the Gen-II XR reticle in an S&B scope is a Premier retro-fit job is it not? I haven't seen anything in my searching that shows that S&B offers it themselves.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You should definitely change and because your USO is a second-rate scope to your desired S&B, so you should sell your 5-25 to me for the same price as a used Barska that has been stepped-on by a camel.

At this level... it's splitting hairs and personal opinion. If you can afford the USO and want a S&B instead. Go that route. Is the S&B a better scope? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

My personal preference is with USO. And I've either shot or demo'd about everything out there. S&B's are freaking awesome. USO's are freaking awesome PLUS I like the company, the people, the customization, the service and the fact that JBWIII is a great guy and supporter of SH and his products are ouststanding in their innovation and rugged design. At a technical and performance level (and there are those who will argue with me) I call basically all the highest-end scopes a draw, technically. So get what you want. What I want is USO and that's what I have and since I make the purchase decisions for my agency's long rifles and M/O rifles... that's what we have.

Look at it this way... you will be staring at the lawn from the wrong side for a long, long time. If S&B is what you want, you won't be disappointed. If you want a S&B more than you want your 5x25 USO... Want trumps need when the kids' college fund is full and there's groceries on the table. So trade away. Someone out there will be delighted to own your USO!

Finally, as for the military contract side of things... when I was working down at JSC, the astronauts had a saying that "We're sitting on 2 million pounds of explosives put together by the lowest bidder." Yeah... military contracts. That makes everything better. I remember when the military bought 10,000 Chrysler K-Cars... Ever try and look HSLD in a K-Car? Boowah ha ha hahhah ahhaha.... MilSpec is just a way of making contract bidders meet the same standards. It is not better... it is just a common-denominator -- and sometimes the lowest common-denominator.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[D_TROS]

If you are getting scope ADDDDD, which I have, you wont rest until you own/try one of each. I started off with NF, sold those to get a USO 5-25. Really liked it, but sold it because it was MOA/MOA and all my buddies are shooting mil/mil. Then I purchased a Hendsoldt. Amazing scope. Then I got and sold a Bushnell 3.5-21 G2DMR. Then I went S&B, and it was great and all but that price tag never set well in my stomach. Tryin to sell both the S&B and the Henny, and I got a Steiner 5-25. Shot my first match with it in Arizona a couple weeks ago and it performed flawlessly. For the price new, easily the best scope available that I have used. My shooting partner had a Kales 5-25 and had some warrenty issues and sent it back to get repaired. Still havnt seen it back from Austria or wherever yet. Glass wise, it was impossible to tell diff from a Steiner or S&B. Like mentioned above, shipping anything out of country for warrenty repair would get old. He said f'it and got a Steiner as well.

I have not tried out the new MArch series of scopes but I really want to. I know Lowlight on here is not fond of them, but they still intrigue me as a compact scope. Its hard to imagine a scope that small and compact being durable in the long run and a 5yr warrenty is absurd.

Now that I went completely off topic, and muddied the waters even worse, if I was you I would try to take a long hard look at a Steiner 5-25, then second either a Kales or maybe that new Nightforce if it ever comes out before a S&B.
When you want to just get out and shoot, and you start buying more and more rifles, having extra scopes is a plus, and the crazy scope prices that are coming out are a little rediculous. I will never pay over $3500 for a scope again, let alone 3k.

Regards,
DT

 

[sch2046]

If you are getting scope ADDDDD, which I have, you wont rest until you own/try one of each. I started off with NF, sold those to get a USO 5-25. Really liked it, but sold it because it was MOA/MOA and all my buddies are shooting mil/mil. Then I purchased a Hendsoldt. Amazing scope. Then I got and sold a Bushnell 3.5-21 G2DMR. Then I went S&B, and it was great and all but that price tag never set well in my stomach. Tryin to sell both the S&B and the Henny, and I got a Steiner 5-25. Shot my first match with it in Arizona a couple weeks ago and it performed flawlessly. For the price new, easily the best scope available that I have used. My shooting partner had a Kales 5-25 and had some warrenty issues and sent it back to get repaired. Still havnt seen it back from Austria or wherever yet. Glass wise, it was impossible to tell diff from a Steiner or S&B. Like mentioned above, shipping anything out of country for warrenty repair would get old. He said f'it and got a Steiner as well.

I have not tried out the new MArch series of scopes but I really want to. I know Lowlight on here is not fond of them, but they still intrigue me as a compact scope. Its hard to imagine a scope that small and compact being durable in the long run and a 5yr warrenty is absurd.

Now that I went completely off topic, and muddied the waters even worse, if I was you I would try to take a long hard look at a Steiner 5-25, then second either a Kales or maybe that new Nightforce if it ever comes out before a S&B.
When you want to just get out and shoot, and you start buying more and more rifles, having extra scopes is a plus, and the crazy scope prices that are coming out are a little rediculous. I will never pay over $3500 for a scope again, let alone 3k.

Regards,
DT

I love my USO, but want more magnification and am getting ready to buy the Steiner, does yours have the msr reticle? If so what do you think of it?

 

[The Godfather]

Never used a S&B before but have spent some time behind a USO. I really like the optics but I tend to treat it like a scope not a expensive camera lens that is producing 20x30 inch prints...

 

[bm11]

You won't know til you know.

 

[sib1948]

I think it's great to have so many quality scopes to choose from. Even the less expensive scopes are much better quality today. now if could just fix our corrupt Government, all would be right with he world. Good Shooting

 

[cega]

You should definitely change and because your USO is a second-rate scope to your desired S&B, so you should sell your 5-25 to me for the same price as a used Barska that has been stepped-on by a camel.

At this level... it's splitting hairs and personal opinion. If you can afford the USO and want a S&B instead. Go that route. Is the S&B a better scope? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

My personal preference is with USO. And I've either shot or demo'd about everything out there. S&B's are freaking awesome. USO's are freaking awesome PLUS I like the company, the people, the customization, the service and the fact that JBWIII is a great guy and supporter of SH and his products are ouststanding in their innovation and rugged design. At a technical and performance level (and there are those who will argue with me) I call basically all the highest-end scopes a draw, technically. So get what you want. What I want is USO and that's what I have and since I make the purchase decisions for my agency's long rifles and M/O rifles... that's what we have.

Look at it this way... you will be staring at the lawn from the wrong side for a long, long time. If S&B is what you want, you won't be disappointed. If you want a S&B more than you want your 5x25 USO... Want trumps need when the kids' college fund is full and there's groceries on the table. So trade away. Someone out there will be delighted to own your USO!

Finally, as for the military contract side of things... when I was working down at JSC, the astronauts had a saying that "We're sitting on 2 million pounds of explosives put together by the lowest bidder." Yeah... military contracts. That makes everything better. I remember when the military bought 10,000 Chrysler K-Cars... Ever try and look HSLD in a K-Car? Boowah ha ha hahhah ahhaha.... MilSpec is just a way of making contract bidders meet the same standards. It is not better... it is just a common-denominator -- and sometimes the lowest common-denominator.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Now that's the kind of no holds barred, screw you if you don't like what I have to say reply I've been looking for! I'm good with my USO scopes, love the Gen-II XR reticle. Curious about the S&B? Yeap, sure I am since I've not gotten behind one in a while and haven't with one of my USO scopes alongside. Maybe the thing to do is build another rifle this year and put a S&B on that one and give it a run.

Thanks for the feedback.

Cega

 

[FALex]

the gentleman questioning the USO's durability clearly hasn't seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ewpwPTA6Q&playnext=1&list=PL204EFB8968FFDD38&feature=results_video

I have seen that video about 5 times...never gets old...I could not do that with my 2500-3K scope!

 

[Jerry R]

That would be very cool to have the Gen-II XR reticle in an S&B scope but correct me if I'm wrong but in order to get the Gen-II XR reticle in an S&B scope is a Premier retro-fit job is it not? I haven't seen anything in my searching that shows that S&B offers it themselves.

Negative. The only way to get one in an S&B now is to find one used. No XR's in new S&B's for a few years now.

 

[cega]

Well that may have sealed the deal for me for the time being then since I have only found one old listing for an S&B with that reticle for sale. Thanks for the official word on the Gen-II XR reticle.

 

[jbailey]

Well that may have sealed the deal for me for the time being then since I have only found one old listing for an S&B with that reticle for sale. Thanks for the official word on the Gen-II XR reticle.

Well Cega-
you can always look directly to the firm behind the Gen-II XR - Premier. I recently sold my USO 5-25 and replaced it with a Premier 5-25. Honestly, I notice a huge improvement in the optical quality as a result, especially in situations with less than ideal lighting conditions (morning/dusk, fog, rain, snow). I was out a few weeks ago in heavy fog vs a 8" target in deep woods at 530yds. The target stood out clear as day for me, whereas the guys I was shooting with had tough time seeing it, even tougher time seeing impacts. For whatever reason, the Premier results in much better sight pictures under those extremes. My USOs have now gone onto my ARs and my long-range bolts guns have Premiers. I still love the USOs but I am very happy with Premier.

 

[tylerw02]

Try an H2CMR

 

[D_TROS]

I love my USO, but want more magnification and am getting ready to buy the Steiner, does yours have the msr reticle? If so what do you think of it?

Mine has the Std G2 rect. Still very usable I think (very similiar/clean as a std mil dot). When the Steiner 3-15 comes out, I am def getting that in the MSR as I have looked at one and thinking its the cats mewow

Try an H2CMR

This is my favorite rect with a higher power scope, you can be very precise with your wind holds...now only if I can READ the wind good enough to use it!!! haha

Regards,
DT

 

[cega]

Well Cega-
you can always look directly to the firm behind the Gen-II XR - Premier. I recently sold my USO 5-25 and replaced it with a Premier 5-25. Honestly, I notice a huge improvement in the optical quality as a result, especially in situations with less than ideal lighting conditions (morning/dusk, fog, rain, snow). I was out a few weeks ago in heavy fog vs a 8" target in deep woods at 530yds. The target stood out clear as day for me, whereas the guys I was shooting with had tough time seeing it, even tougher time seeing impacts. For whatever reason, the Premier results in much better sight pictures under those extremes. My USOs have now gone onto my ARs and my long-range bolts guns have Premiers. I still love the USOs but I am very happy with Premier.

Any chance at some point of me getting down your way to get behind your Premier? Would be very nice to get to do some side by side comparisons first hand.

 

[jbailey]

Any chance at some point of me getting down your way to get behind your Premier? Would be very nice to get to do some side by side comparisons first hand.

sure thing! PM me and we could find a spot.

 

[scudzuki]

the gentleman questioning the USO's durability clearly hasn't seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ewpwPTA6Q&playnext=1&list=PL204EFB8968FFDD38&feature=results_video

I have seen that video about 5 times...never gets old...I could not do that with my 2500-3K scope!

A rifle scope encounters far more shock from the recoil of a .308 than it does from hitting the ground from 50 feet in the air.
Neat trick but not that impressive IMHO.

Joe

 

[FALex]

A rifle scope encounters far more shock from the recoil of a .308 than it does from hitting the ground from 50 feet in the air.
Neat trick but not that impressive IMHO.

Joe

Please cite your source for this information, because I am calling bullshit on it.

 

[scudzuki]

Well let's see.
How long was the USO in the air?
2, maybe 3 seconds?
At 32 fps/sec acceleration (gravity at sea level) the scope is moving 96 fps (assuming 3 seconds) and decelerates to zero in a fraction of a second.

Firing a .308 accelerates a bullet to a velocity of 2600 fps or so in a fraction of a second, and for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, so the rifle accelerates in the opposite direction. Add to that the effect of the expanding gasses exiting the barrel, and you have some wicked acceleration.

Joe

 

[KYS]

Try an H2CMR

+1 on that! I run only the H2CMR in the S&B scopes only for the fact that it offers .2 increments of measure.
The only other scope I would consider, for the money, is the Bushnell HDMR in 4.5-30. The G2 reticle is very nice and the glass is excellent.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Gravitational acceleration is about 32.2 Feet per-second/second

At 50 feet, the dropped scope would be travelling about 57 F/S (40 MPH) when it hits.

If it takes .01 seconds (one hundredth of a second to stop… reasonable considering that there will be a bit of deformation of the scope/ground… but this is a guess. Might be more, might be less. ) Anyway, you are talking about 181 G’s of deceleration force. IMHO, there will be a bit less because the scope will bounce. But assuming a theoretical dead stop…. 181 G’s.

Some Google-fu and the G-Forces of an 11 LB .308 are about 180 – 195 G’s of acceleration. Fairly wide range will be based on bullet weight, powder charge and rifle weight, etc. But safe average… TNVC did a great chart/study on this on ARF.com.

So with some VERY rough scratchpad calculations, the forces of dropping and recoil are pretty similar – on paper.

Then again, I’m not a physicist…. Perhaps someone will do some more accurate math that doesn’t involve my taking my socks off. I probably messed up everything with numbers involved.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[FALex]

thanks, sirh. I am no physicist, but I know enough physics to understand the statement was not accurate. The G's are similar, however, the energy contained in them is imparted differently. My fundamental understanding of a recoil impulse is that it is absorbed by the shooter, and not the scope. The same energy directed into the shooter is not the same energy directed into the scope when the rifle is fired. Rest the scope between the buttstock and your shoulder and fire the rifle. Then we can have a decent comparison.

 

[lanwickum]

I have had one USO, one S&B, one PR. The PR and S&B were a tough choice which is "better" they only beat out the USO because I like the elevation turrets better on S&B and PR. The USO I had was one of the old Canadians, some here know what I talking about. Customer service, USO has em all beat by a long shoot, no pun intended.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

FALex... you would be correct. The theoretical acceleration of the scope when attached to the rifle is also offset by the absorption of the acceleration by the shooter, who is not a rigid object. Nor is the shooter 'non-existant,' so the rifle is not accelerating backwards in a vacuum (and I think the chart from TNVC is based on the rifle in a 'vacuum'). The shoulder/cheek absorbs some of the acceleration, making the rifle seem like it weighs 'more' than 11 lbs. This should reduce the apparent G's.

The full-up math is beyond me and involves a lot of variables if you include a shooter and factor in surfaces, how the scope hits, bounces, etc. But the idea of the above scratchpad calculation showing that (in a theoretical vacuum) the numbers arrived at more or less show that dropping the scope is not a bad comparison to the impact of firing a normal .308 rifle.

Again, there have to be some math whizzes here who can run the numbers right ;-) Because I is not a injuneer. A detailed analysis would make for interesting reading!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[scudzuki]

thanks, sirh. I am no physicist, but I know enough physics to understand the statement was not accurate. The G's are similar, however, the energy contained in them is imparted differently. My fundamental understanding of a recoil impulse is that it is absorbed by the shooter, and not the scope. The same energy directed into the shooter is not the same energy directed into the scope when the rifle is fired. Rest the scope between the buttstock and your shoulder and fire the rifle. Then we can have a decent comparison.

Regardless of whether the shooter's shoulder absorbs the recoil energy once the rifle is moving, it still accelerates for several inches of movement. Ever heard of scope kiss?

The parts of the scope that have mass (pretty much everything except the inert gas) are subject to G forces as a result of the acceleration; they move with the rifle... how exactly do you thing the scope is decoupled from the rifle? G force is G force regardless of how it is delivered.

Clearly you know little about physics if you believe otherwise.

Now strap that same scope on a .338 Lapua or .50 BMG.

I stand by my statement, dropping the scope proves nothing except that someone has little regard for the unit.

Joe