Sig 716 DMR Accuracy Issues

[SPRword]

Howdy Gents. I’m having some issues with my Gen 1 SIG 716 DMR. Basically, I cannot get consistent 5 round groups under 1.25 MOA. To my mind, a rifle like this should be able to shoot at or under 1 MOA fairly consistently. Barrel is the factory 1:10 twist 18” SIG barrel. I am currently using a Silencerco Omega mounted on an ASR Flash hider. I’m firing off of bipods with a rear bag at 100 yards and I’m using a 5-25 FFP Vudu in an ADM mount. Optic is torqued to spec, flash hider is on to spec, the whole nine yards. I’ve had similar results without the can and with my AAC 762-SD.

I can achieve 1.5-2.0 MOA groups with factory M118lr. Best I can achieve is 1.25 MOA with LC LR brass, CCI 7.62 NATO primers, and 42.2gr’s of 4064 at 2.79” COAL. With my M118LR clone loads, same recipe as above but with 41.7gr’s 4064 loaded to 2.81 COAL I can achieve 1.5-1.6 MOA pretty consistently. Am I being unrealistic with my MOA or sub-MOA expectations? My factory test target shows a .8 MOA group so I don’t think my expectations are crazy. I’ve had this rifle since it was new and really only started shooting it recently since getting into reloading.

Should I be looking at 168gr loads? I like the idea of using M118LR as I have a lot of it and the components to make more, as that is what most of my other .308’s like. I assumed with a 1:10 twist these heavier loads would be best. Anyone have a pet load for theirs that they like, or a good factory ammo option? All advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[diggler1833]

It sounds like you have a decent amount of experience shooting large frame ARs and are familiar with the additional amount of fundamental skills needed to shoot one well.

What bullet/ammo was used on the factory test target?

 

[BCP]

They hold them to a sub moa with three rounds of match ammo standard shot at 25yds. I was told Hornady eld 168.

 

[SPRword]

It sounds like you have a decent amount of experience shooting large frame ARs and are familiar with the additional amount of fundamental skills needed to shoot one well.

What bullet/ammo was used on the factory test target?

I’m sorry, I can’t recall. I don’t have the factory case with me which has the target in it.

I called SIG today and the guy I spoke to said he didn’t know what they used and that they don’t have records that far back. He recommended that I buy their match ammo and try that. Of course that doesn’t help me much when the goal is, for me at least, to be able to buy and stash or load/clone and stash one of the common factory offerings. Anyone tried the 168 FGMM through this? I’ll see if I can find the Hornady stuff and give that a try as well.

 

[tekmann2377]

First off, an actual 5 round average of multiple groups, that is 1.25 MOA, is really quite good from a stock large frame AR. I would not complain about this at all.

Have you thought about trying some lighter bullets, and better brass? A good choice is a 155 gr class bullet. Your 1/10 twist will be fine. All of my 308 AR's have shot well with Sierra 155's. 4064 powder would work fine with these too.

I think with a little different load development you will get there. I also think you should relax your expectations a little bit.

 

[SPRword]

First off, an actual 5 round average of multiple groups, that is 1.25 MOA, is really quite good from a stock large frame AR. I would not complain about this at all.

Have you thought about trying some lighter bullets, and better brass? A good choice is a 155 gr class bullet. Your 1/10 twist will be fine. All of my 308 AR's have shot well with Sierra 155's. 4064 powder would work fine with these too.

I think with a little different load development you will get there. I also think you should relax your expectations a little bit.

Good idea, I’ll take a look at some lighter options. I was really hoping to make this an effective 800 meter gun, but that may not be an option.

Perhaps my expectations are the issue, but if so then I fell a bit disappointed in the rifle. For the $2k+ that this rifle cost 7 years ago and the accuracy claims made when it was released I expected it to keep up with the big boys.

 

[Milf Dots]

I think the rifle will shoot to its potential with some match grade ammo. I'd try Berger, Federal, Hornady, Norma, Sig.

 

[BCP]

They are hit-miss some people got decent groups others 2moa. I would consider 168 federal match the best baseline accuracy.

 

[RomanM1A]

I have the G2 in 6.5 and it's lights out, sub moa. I'd recommend 168s or 175s. Also, what optics are you using? Trying to shoot small groups with lower power can be a challenge.

 

[tucaz]

are we talking about a 716i tread rifle? if so i had one with a 16” barrel and it was less than stellar for accuracy with GGG 168gr and 155gr hpbt ammo and hornady 155gr amax. the GGG shoots under 1moa in my ruger american too.

lots of recoil with it too. ended up with an AGB and muzzle brake that helped but i still couldnt get it under 1.5moa on paper at 100yards. some barrels just dont shoot. i just move on from them.

i assume you are using a good trigger too right?

 

[SPRword]

are we talking about a 716i tread rifle? if so i had one with a 16” barrel and it was less than stellar for accuracy with GGG 168gr and 155gr hpbt ammo and hornady 155gr amax. the GGG shoots under 1moa in my ruger american too.

lots of recoil with it too. ended up with an AGB and muzzle brake that helped but i still couldnt get it under 1.5moa on paper at 100yards. some barrels just dont shoot. i just move on from them.

i assume you are using a good trigger too right?

No sir, this is the earlier 716 piston rifle, specifically the generation 1 DMR variant. Barrel is the 18” DMR barrel. Trigger is the factory 2 stage, which is very nice. I’d say similar in quality to a G2S.

 

[loveha]

I called Sig this past Friday to see about a barrel for my Sig 716 patrol($700ish for those wondering. Would need to send it in). Older, piston driven with the quad rail. Asked about accuracy and what it should be. Was told 1.5 to 2 MOA with M118LR. So to the tune of $60 a box I bought a few to see what it's doing. I haven't bothered with it in a few years, but recall struggling with getting it to do MOA.

I personally would expect the DMR version to be at least MOA.

 

[SPRword]

Thought I’d update everyone on this. I’ve been loading and shooting for this rifle basically all week. Today when I went out, I spent the time to make sure that everything was perfect so I could really get an idea of how this thing shoots. I setup in the prone on our KD range at the 100 yard line. I tried 168gr FGMM, some M118LR that I have, and some MK316 clone loads I’ve worked up. I made the focus of this trip my fundamentals. Good breathing, good posture and shooting position, good trigger control, the works. I was able to tighten things up pretty considerably. While most of my factory ammo was in the 1.2-1.9 MOA range (with the 168’s performing the worst,) with my hand loads I was able to pull off .7-.9 MOA groups with a cool barrel. Overall I’m much more pleased with this. I expect that with some more time I could improve this a bit more.

I think a lot of the issues that I was having were related to how I was driving the rifle. I shoot a LOT AR, but I’d been spending much more time with my bolt guns lately. I think that what I was seeing was really an issue with my fundamentals. My AI AE lets me get away with things that this thing doesn’t. It goes to show, if you don’t practice, that skill can fade pretty quick, especially with a semi-auto.

 

[Milf Dots]

Though I've never shot a large frame AR, my understanding is they're more sensitive to poor technique and fundamentals, or "follow through", if any of that terminology makes sense. Perhaps a large frame AR expert will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[wvfarrier]

I had similar issues with mine. Changed to a satern barrel and it shoots amazing now. It really likes the 178 ELD

 

[dms416]

They hold them to a sub moa with three rounds of match ammo standard shot at 25yds.

Seems like a waste of 3 rounds

 

[SPRword]

I had similar issues with mine. Changed to a satern barrel and it shoots amazing now. It really likes the 178 ELD

I’ll give these a shot, appreciate it. Can i ask what your load looks like?

 

[BCP]

I had similar issues with mine. Changed to a satern barrel and it shoots amazing now. It really likes the 178 ELD

You put a satern barrel on a piston sig 308?

 

[loveha]

You put a satern barrel on a piston sig 308?

That is what I am wondering? The piston Sig 716's are not normal. They are two aminals put together and nobody makes a replacement. To get a new barrel, you send it to Sig. Or you do what other have done and order what is needed and have a gunsmith cobble it for you.

Taken from Sig Talk.
The receiver threads for the barrel nut are armalite pattern, 1 7/16" - 18 TPI. The bolt and barrel extension however are DPMS pattern.

 

[wvfarrier]

Whoops my bad. I totally blanked on that. Mine is a TREAD

 

[BCP]

Whoops my bad. I totally blanked on that. Mine is a TREAD

Seriously I have one of those post pics. Would love to rebarrel mine.

 

[BadApple]

For what it’s worth, I have that exact rifle, with a Saker on it. I would get about 1.25 to 1.5 MOA with M80 and 168 Amax hornady. I switched to Berger 175 OTM factory loads and I can get one hole groups at 100 yards if my fundamentals are on point. I haven’t had a chance to load up some hand loads yet, I meant to this weekend but I found some issues when doing warm up shots with the OTMs. Just an FYI, if you’re running a can, make sure your gas setting is not on the over gas setting, it’ll give you some wild vertical stringing issues, that was an expensive mistake on my part.

 

[SPRword]

For what it’s worth, I have that exact rifle, with a Saker on it. I would get about 1.25 to 1.5 MOA with M80 and 168 Amax hornady. I switched to Berger 175 OTM factory loads and I can get one hole groups at 100 yards if my fundamentals are on point. I haven’t had a chance to load up some hand loads yet, I meant to this weekend but I found some issues when doing warm up shots with the OTMs. Just an FYI, if you’re running a can, make sure your gas setting is not on the over gas setting, it’ll give you some wild vertical stringing issues, that was an expensive mistake on my part.

This is good info, thank you. Have you tried handloading with those bullets by chance? If so, do you have a good clone load? If this is the recipe I need I’d love to make up some rounds for future use.

 

[BadApple]

I want to load those up, but I can’t find the 175 OTM bullets in stock anywhere. Right now I’m going to try using similar weight SMKs and Hornady ELDx and see how they go.

 

[Frontseeker]

IMO 5 rounds 1.25MOA is pretty decent for a piston AR. I have owned 3 different long/short stroke piston ARs from reputable companies (LWRC, SIG, PWS) and none of them shoot 5 rounds group under 1 MOA. Maybe it’s just a thing with piston type AR. Maybe on a sunny day you get sub moa but I assume it’s more luck than actuality.

 

[ToddM]

I'd have to pile on and say for a SIG (even DMR) 1.25 MOA 5 round groups with any factory ammo is pretty darn good. Everyone want's a ragged hole semi rifle these days, between large frame AR's being hard to drive and factory ammo it's hard to do consistently. Add in lots of practice, a custom barrel, and handloads etc. sure you can get some amazing groups out of the large frame semi's but in my limited experience, even the ones I've built with custom heavy barrels rarely hold under 1 MOA consistently with factory ammo. Is some of that my fundamentals or lack of in driving big semi autos.....almost certainly.

SIG honestly has a long history of accuracy complaints on forums with the MCX and other lines. I've heard their standard for the MCX is 4 MOA......I get that it's probably the military standard for a battle rifle, but 4 MOA in this day and age is ridiculous, that's 2 feet at 600yds. The fact SIG tests for accuracy at 25yds and extrapolates is a joke, but I'm sure it saves them from replacing a lot of bad barrels.

I have an MCX Legacy, and on it's best day it would struggle to do 4 MOA consistently with heavy match ammo it "liked" and worse with 55/62gr stuff and there's endless complaints of people with the MCX platform and poor accuracy. Sent it to Sig they said it met their requirement. SIG doesn't seem to really do accuracy consistently, some shoot great, others are horrible. I've seen the same thing with MPX's, seen tons of them in the PCC world, many of them are no more accurate than the average cheap plastic 9mm. The worst part is a lot folks that send them in get them back with Sig saying they met their standards.

 

[tucaz]

I'd have to pile on and say for a SIG (even DMR) 1.25 MOA 5 round groups with any factory ammo is pretty darn good. Everyone want's a ragged hole semi rifle these days, between large frame AR's being hard to drive and factory ammo it's hard to do consistently. Add in lots of practice, a custom barrel, and handloads etc. sure you can get some amazing groups out of the large frame semi's but in my limited experience, even the ones I've built with custom heavy barrels rarely hold under 1 MOA consistently with factory ammo. Is some of that my fundamentals or lack of in driving big semi autos.....almost certainly.

SIG honestly has a long history of accuracy complaints on forums with the MCX and other lines. I've heard their standard for the MCX is 4 MOA......I get that it's probably the military standard for a battle rifle, but 4 MOA in this day and age is ridiculous, that's 2 feet at 600yds. The fact SIG tests for accuracy at 25yds and extrapolates is a joke, but I'm sure it saves them from replacing a lot of bad barrels.

I have an MCX Legacy, and on it's best day it would struggle to do 4 MOA consistently with heavy match ammo it "liked" and worse with 55/62gr stuff and there's endless complaints of people with the MCX platform and poor accuracy. Sent it to Sig they said it met their requirement. SIG doesn't seem to really do accuracy consistently, some shoot great, others are horrible. I've seen the same thing with MPX's, seen tons of them in the PCC world, many of them are no more accurate than the average cheap plastic 9mm. The worst part is a lot folks that send them in get them back with Sig saying they met their standards.

must be a legacy thing with the MCX. i had 2 virtus and they were not 4 MOA barrel and the 2 Spears i have now are not that either.

now i haven’t scoped them with magnification but with aimpoints and a meprolight m21’s they would print 1” groups at 50yards with a variety of decent ammo.

best of all, these different bullets would shoot to nearly the same POA

had a sig 716i 308 that was minute of barn though.

 

[ToddM]

I think it's just luck of the draw with SIG (and other factory brands at times). Now of course the pencil legacy barrel is probably more prone to lower accuracy, esp. as it heats up. You see some guys Legacy/Virtus shooting great, but there's quite a few that struggle to get them to shoot. Some of them you can lump into people that can't shoot, or they want their MCX to be 0.5 MOA with surplus ammo, but there's enough of both that it's clear the variation is pretty extreme. More concerning is from those that have sent theirs in, Sig appears to rarely do anything about it aside send it back saying it met specs not surprising if their testing is at 25yds and the spec is 4 MOA. Sig requires owners to spend $55 for shipping for warranty work if it's outside 1 year of ownership......I'm not sure I've ever ran into that before. Overall I like the gun, but it's hard to swallow spending another $1000+ to swap barrels (since the legacy also needs an updated tapered bolt for another $200, knowing that if you don't hit the barrel lottery you could be stuck with another 4 MOA barrel that Sig calls meeting spec. If someone was making custom barrels for them I might try it but I'd imagine with the gas setup etc. that's pretty difficult and not worth the payoff to bother making.

I would not expect it to be a 1 MOA gun, certainly not the legacy pencil barrel, but I feel like 2 MOA with say good match ammo is not that much to ask in 2024. Especially when you factor in the they charge almost $800 for the barrel. There aren't many places you can spend more than $800 on an AR barrel these days.

 

[simonp]

I have an older 716 that I bought before I knew better that sits in the back of the safe. I keep meaning to work on some loads for it but hasn’t happened yet. Back when I got it I thought there were 2 large frame systems & the plan was to swap out the barrel - soon learned that changing almost anything beyond the furniture was nearly impossible:-/

 

[Hound Dog]

I had one of the gen 1 Sig 716's piston driven with the 16 inch barrel. I never could get it better than maybe 2 MOA. With everything but the trigger and the stock being proprietary on it I eventually sold it. It had a wicked kick to it as well, like someone mentioned earlier. Never did like that rifle.

 

[simonp]

I had one of the gen 1 Sig 716's piston driven with the 16 inch barrel. I never could get it better than maybe 2 MOA. With everything but the trigger and the stock being proprietary on it I eventually sold it. It had a wicked kick to it as well, like someone mentioned earlier. Never did like that rifle.

Yep that’s the one I have