Sig-716 shooter and more experienced shooters

[Andrew-716]

Need your help on interpreting these results, please. My set up is Sig-716 with USO 1.5x6 DFP scope. I'm shooting off a bench with sandbag under the front and butt-stock.

Loaded 3 cartridges of each to see what kind of grouping I can get and see what my rifle prefers. As you can see in the grouping that I would get 2 fairly close and the 3rd would end-up 1MOA apart! What gives? My rifle is zeroed at 200yrds, but this target was at 100yds and I aimed 2" below the "X". The rifle has about 300 rounds through it, with no issues what so ever.

My question.. Is it me? Is it the rifle? Is it the scope (all is tight). Could it be the last round causing it round to fly that much off? Any suggestions, constructive criticism, opinions are welcome. Thank you for your help!

 

[Andrew-716]

Anyone? Where are the experts? Thx

 

[Dracozny]

ammunition specs?

generally two trains of thought, either your a consistent shooter and its possibly ammo related, or its just you.

 

[Andrew-716]

Dracozny-Hover your mouse pointer over each photo and you will see the ammo specs. All factory new ammo, The SouthWestAmmo are reloads. It seem that no matter what I shot, I was getting one of the 3 way off. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

First, when going for tight groups, zero the scope for the range you are shooting so you can hold on a very specific aiming point and eliminate any ambiguity in where you are holding. Next, if you don't know if it's you or the ammo, then it's probably you because you should know if it isn't. So, get someone who you know can shoot and see what their results are and you'll have your answer.

 

[Newtrick]

Just a thought, mag drag? If you are going to shoot three round groups, load four, don't shoot the last. As I said, just a thought.

 

[Hogshooter]

What Newtrick said...If you are loading just 3 at a time in the mag the recoil impulse is different on the last shot due to the bolt not going back into battery and being held open. This is of course if the errant round is always the last shot of the group.

 

[Andrew-716]

Thanks eeveryone for the suggestions. After I left the range I thought of loading 4 and shooting 3. On my next outing I'll do that and see if it makes any difference.

 

[samnev]

Most of your groups are stringing vertically. That is usually cause by not having you check weld in the same place shot to shot. My brother had the same problem with his 700 SPS tactical until he corrected his non consistent check weld. The horizontal displacement your getting could be the load or perhaps you are inadvertently torquing the trigger. Last it could be the scope.

 

[Andrew-716]

Thanks Samnev for your suggestions. On my next outing, I'll be paying more attention to see if t helps and/or improves my issue. Can you please explain "torquing the trigger"? My technique is to pull it towards the back in one smooth pull. After it fires, keep it held back, let the gun settle, re-aim and smooth pull back. Thx

 

[lobhob]

I don't see the problem. Unlike what most people would lead you to believe on the internet, a 2 moa factory rifle is the norm.

 

[samnev]

Thanks Samnev for your suggestions. On my next outing, I'll be paying more attention to see if t helps and/or improves my issue. Can you please explain "torquing the trigger"? My technique is to pull it towards the back in one smooth pull. After it fires, keep it held back, let the gun settle, re-aim and smooth pull back. Thx

If your pulling the trigger straight back as you indicated your are not torquing the trigger which means you are pulling it slightly to the left or right. Since you are following thru and pulling straight back that is probably not the problem. One trick that I used to help friends who are experiencing problems is and load the rifle with them not looking to se if there is a round in the chamber and let them pull the trigger. Many times it became very evident they were suprised to see the rifle move even though their was no cartridge in the chamber.
I still believe check placement is the biggest problem. With my 716 I find check placement a follow thru is critical. Much more so than my bolt action AIAW. By the way what ammo are you using? To eliminate this variable consider buying a box of 168 grain Federal Gold Metal Match and see how the 716 shoots if all else fails. Hope you can resolve your problem.

 

[Andrew-716]

I do practice dry-firing to make sure nothing moves when I pull the trigger. I do have few boxed of 168 Federal SMK's. The best groups I got were with Hornady 168 and 155 A-Max's If you hover your pointer over the photos you will see what shot in the photo names. Cheek placement could be the problem. Although I try to be as consistant as possible. I'll try narrowing it down on my next rip to the range. Thanks for the response!!!

 

[GONIF]

I have found that with proper match ammo and the Geissele SSA-E trigger and a Vortex PST 1-4 scope my 716-P can hold .75 at 100 yards . The stock trigger just plain sucked. I do wish I had bought more scope with more power . The first thing I would is get a Geissele trigger and some good match ammo ( Copper Creek 175 gas gun )

 

[Andrew-716]

I do have the Wilson Combat Trigger TR-TTU on it. It's a single stage at 4#.

 

[Mumbles]

Can you show us groups you've shot with other .308s? Not trying to talk down to you or anything, but if you're just getting started - which some of your questions and comments indicate you're at least a little new to this - the default assumption should not be that the rifle is at fault.

As has already been stated, holdovers are good for field shooting and whatnot, but not the best way to shoot tight groups.

If we had a frame of reference for what you can do with a rifle that is known to perform well, that would make it easier to root out what is human error and what can be blamed on the rifle/ammo.

 

[samnev]

I have found that with proper match ammo and the Geissele SSA-E trigger and a Vortex PST 1-4 scope my 716-P can hold .75 at 100 yards . The stock trigger just plain sucked. I do wish I had bought more scope with more power . The first thing I would is get a Geissele trigger and some good match ammo ( Copper Creek 175 gas gun )

I greatly improved the trigger on my 716 by purchasing the JP Reduced Power Spring Kit from Brownell's for $9.95. I only replaced the trigger spring as replacing the hammer spring might lead to light primer strikes. I have done the same to almost all my AR's except the Colt 6721 Enhanced and my 2 Rock River AR's which have excellent crisp and light triggers. Several other board members have done the same which is where I got the 411 to try it.

 

[agbm]

You can shoot 1/4 - 1/2 MOA with this rifle with a few changes. This is my plan when I get my sig 716. Shoot some factory 175gr FGMM ammo to see how it shoots, then work up my own loads for my Sig716. Next replace trigger out for a Geissele SSA-E trigger. Add a nice recoil pad and a recoil eliminator and the groups will drop. I would put on a limb saver recoil pad on the stock with this adapter below. This set up will allow me to shoot 250 rounds or more at one sitting. The question is did you buy it to shoot or too really shot? You will need to refine the rifle a little bit , but you will need to spend a little more money. I dont like pain/recoil and being pushed around or bruised. I shot a 308 scar and got beat up, so I said the only 308 gas piston for me would be the Sig 716. The sig allows me to make these changes below.
1. TEST AMMO: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=151
2. RECOIL PAD ADAPTER: http://www.tactilite.com/M-P-Magpul-Pachmayr-Adapter-and-Recoil-Pad-Combo-p/rp-0032.htm
3. RECOIL PAD: http://www.limbsaver.com/firearms/recoil.php#precision
4. RECOIL ELIMINATOR http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.2_re.php
5. TRIGGER: http://geissele.com/supersemi-automaticenhanced.aspx or or 6.Spring kit http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.3_spring.php

7. SCOPE: YOUR CHOICE

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

I don't really know what kind of accuracy to expect out of this particular rifle, but looking at your groups
I can tell that a lot of this is your lack of follow through when "driving" the gun. The reason I bring this up
is I had similar problems when I first bought my Gap 10. I am not afraid to admit that shooting a gas gun
takes mucho practice and consistency is critical for success. I got frustrated in the beginning and decided to really
focus on the fundamentals, i.e. "follow through". I suggest you work on the same.

 

[Andrew-716]

M14er- Would you mind explaining your method of :follow through" please? Just so I have a good understanding next time I go practice. Thx

AGDM- I do thank you for taking the time and adding your comments! I will look into one of those recoil pads for sure as that rifle does need one. Thx

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

I think he means being consistent in what you do after the round ignites. I recall that Jean Paul of JP rifles mentioned in a video to consistently pull the trigger all the way to the stop and then release it. Reminded me of batting follow though after meeting the baseball. I'm sure there are more points to shooting follow through, but that's one example.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

It's simple to consider/explain....A whole lot harder to master.

Follow through pertains to squeezing through all 3 recoil impulses of a semi auto.

It's like perfecting a golf swing.

Hand and finger positioning is key...

Recoil should drive directly back into the shoulder so body positioning on the gun is also key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytM_2PG6joU

 

[OutRider]

...in stupid terms keep shooting for tbe whole shot...don't.be snappin yer fool.head up to "see" anything...

...look at tbe target through your sights...

...if you don't come out of recoil at least close to looking at target through sights you are doing it wrong...

 

[Andrew-716]

According to this video my follow-up is correct. I think more practice, butt stock recoil pas need to be replaced and that should give me improved results according to the information posted above. Thanks everyone.