I can't speak to the SIG and S&W, but Glocks are not "95-98%" cocked when in battery with the trigger released. Judging by trigger pull, I'd also say the same about the FN 509. That's part of the overall Glock safety concept and has been since the very beginning - even if the striker somehow slips off off the cruciform and the firing pin safety is defective, the gun still can't go off without a full press of the trigger because there isn't enough energy stored in the firing pin spring at rest.
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Sig P320 discharge while holstered
- Thread starter ut755ln
- Start date
I can't speak to the SIG and S&W, but Glocks are not "95-98%" cocked when in battery with the trigger released. Judging by trigger pull, I'd also say the same about the FN 509. That's part of the overall Glock safety concept and has been since the very beginning - even if the striker somehow slips off off the cruciform and the firing pin safety is defective, the gun still can't go off without a full press of the trigger because there isn't enough energy stored in the firing pin spring at rest.
VERY deep carry. Is he grabbing a pistol or scratching his balls? He’s wrist deep in his pants so I can’t tell.
A pistol carried appendix iwb is pointed pretty much directly at my pubis (pubic bone), or just in front, while sitting. No way is my junk sitting behind the holster.
Is the 320 the same basic trigger design as the 365XL? Cause that things pointed at muh balls all day every day. I've heard wayyyy less complaints or issues with the later ran 365XL's than I have the 320's
I am completely correct. All the strikers are fully cocked when the slide comes to the rear, it is when it cycles forward into battery the sear engages the arm on the striker assembly that removes it being fully cocked, It is then the trigger pull that restores it to 100% cocked and lets the sear slip off the striker arm.
You didn't read the part after the "OR".
last few days I've been looking at CZ for a backup gun, I run a Wilson P320 Carry.
Thought I settled on a P01 Omega from Cajun Gun Works, then I hit a whole thread and mess of problems people had with them in stock form, not the Cajun guns.
The de-cockers were walking themselves apart, then when safeties were installed people could get the safeties to actually fall out.
Several sent back to CZ that were returned and still had the problems, one person had their entire gun replaced just to have the replacement have the same issues.
May just save for a while and go with an EDC X9 with the 3.25" barrel... was rather excited about trying one of the magical CZs but just ended up becoming more depressed about just about everything out there.
Thought I settled on a P01 Omega from Cajun Gun Works, then I hit a whole thread and mess of problems people had with them in stock form, not the Cajun guns.
The de-cockers were walking themselves apart, then when safeties were installed people could get the safeties to actually fall out.
Several sent back to CZ that were returned and still had the problems, one person had their entire gun replaced just to have the replacement have the same issues.
May just save for a while and go with an EDC X9 with the 3.25" barrel... was rather excited about trying one of the magical CZs but just ended up becoming more depressed about just about everything out there.
Why not just get a non-Omega? The classic P01. Tried and true design.
I run a safety on all my guns, mainly because I'll always believe I'm going to end up at the 2011, whether a Staccato or Wilson Combat, though I'm still trying to avoid that for a bit.
I had the manual safety installed on my Wilson Combat 320 carry before I ever even had it in hand, and would immediately install the safety on the P01, no interest in the de-cocker.
I had the manual safety installed on my Wilson Combat 320 carry before I ever even had it in hand, and would immediately install the safety on the P01, no interest in the de-cocker.
No big deal, just Sig being Sig: get the contracts signed, beta-testing will figure itself out eventually lol.
I spent $2-3k continuing the beta-testing on an MPX for them a couple years ago...
Here are a couple fun spooky things about the P320 series:
First, its frame/receiver is a recycled design from their P250, introduced in 2007, that failed miserably and was a financial disaster. Possibly the worst trigger ever, almost like one of their engineers said "I think the pistol market is asking for a new polymer-framed semi-auto, but with a double-action-only trigger just slightly shittier than the worst revolver out there..." (The 320 frames still even feature the cut-out for the failed 250's hammer, probably because they're made on the same machines/molds so Sig could recoup some or all of their initial investment in tooling.)
Second, there's a reason Glock and many others passed on the prospect of having a fully-cocked striker incorporated into their design (even when they knew it would immediately/drastically affect their trigger feel for the better)... it was called, umm, "safety" I think.
Don't worry though, I'm fairly sure Sig didn't make any other sketchy design compromises stuffing their striker mechanism into a frame they already had on the shelf in order to turn their failed design into a winner... we all know money doesn't motivate companies to do shady stuff like that. Gee, was it millions or billions they got for those big military contracts again?
I'm sure it's probably just a coincidence, but for once the military may have gotten it right by insisting on a manual safety...
I spent $2-3k continuing the beta-testing on an MPX for them a couple years ago...
Here are a couple fun spooky things about the P320 series:
First, its frame/receiver is a recycled design from their P250, introduced in 2007, that failed miserably and was a financial disaster. Possibly the worst trigger ever, almost like one of their engineers said "I think the pistol market is asking for a new polymer-framed semi-auto, but with a double-action-only trigger just slightly shittier than the worst revolver out there..." (The 320 frames still even feature the cut-out for the failed 250's hammer, probably because they're made on the same machines/molds so Sig could recoup some or all of their initial investment in tooling.)
Second, there's a reason Glock and many others passed on the prospect of having a fully-cocked striker incorporated into their design (even when they knew it would immediately/drastically affect their trigger feel for the better)... it was called, umm, "safety" I think.
Don't worry though, I'm fairly sure Sig didn't make any other sketchy design compromises stuffing their striker mechanism into a frame they already had on the shelf in order to turn their failed design into a winner... we all know money doesn't motivate companies to do shady stuff like that. Gee, was it millions or billions they got for those big military contracts again?
I'm sure it's probably just a coincidence, but for once the military may have gotten it right by insisting on a manual safety...
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No, you really are not correct at all. For one thing, your statement above is backwards. The strikers are not fully cocked when the slide is rearward and open, they are fully forward in the slide and the opposite of cocked. The striker catching the sear or trigger bar during forward slide movement is what cocks the strikers, either fully or partially.
Do you own these three platforms, and actually have the understanding to take them apart and see how they work? If you did, you'd realize that these claims are complete BS. I've owned and done trigger work on all of these, and taken the time to fully understand them rather than relying on poorly worded magazine articles.
The Glock trigger system is a partial double action, as posted above. ~50% of the striker cocking stroke is accomplished by trigger movement, and calling it a DAO system is adequate enough here.
The Sig 320 system is not like that; trigger movement does not cock the striker at all. Instead, the striker is fully cocked when the slide closes into battery, and Sig's trigger system feels like a DAO but actually is not. (Which the article you linked also said.) The 320 firing system is a single action trigger with a lot of creep, and a trigger built to simulate the feel of a double action even though it is not.
The M&P is somewhere in the middle, although a lot closer to also being a single action system. That firing system holds the striker almost fully cocked with the slide in battery, and the trigger action cocks the striker back a tiny bit further. S&W intentionally did this so they could claim a double action system, although for all practical purposes it is a single action. The primary difference between the M&P and 320 systems are the M&P has a LOT more sear engagement and a much more substantial & solid system without the tiny intricate stamped or molded parts and tiny springs of the 320. Again here, the M&P trigger simulates a DAO but functionally is DAO in name only.
It's worth noting that some aftermarket triggers for Glocks change the operation enough to function as a single action system, where the striker is held in a fully cocked position. The new-ish Timney Glock trigger is a glaring example of this, completely removing the double action Glock trigger system and replacing it with something more akin to a simplified version of the M&P. (I absolutely will not use that trigger in an AIWB condition, personally.)
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Seems like getting it not to run is the issueMehMy P320 runs like a raped ape.
@Yondering is correct, until you get your hands dirty working on and taking apart these different designs, there’s no other way to compare and contrast their design differences and similarities… and probably don’t know what you’re talking about.
Once you disregard the BS the companies and magazines sell, the P320’s, Walther’s, VP9’s, and M&P’s (I know I’m forgetting some others) are all single-action guns. It actually was an argument years ago whether any of those platforms should be legal for IDPA SSP or USPSA Production since they’re basically “factory cheaters” out of the box, competing against DAO’s like Glock’s and such instead of 2011’s like they should be.
Just be careful if you own a 320 or are around them, since Sig has a reputation of not doing the proper and complete T&E, and the multiple reports of them going off by themselves is many and it’s been going on for a few years now… unless you believe in coincidence, best to watch your ass around them.
As for AIWB with a P320: ask yourself if you’d be cool with sticking a cocked and loaded 1911 with a pinned grip-safety in your pants after taking it off-safe… because that’s kind of what you’d be doing…
Once you disregard the BS the companies and magazines sell, the P320’s, Walther’s, VP9’s, and M&P’s (I know I’m forgetting some others) are all single-action guns. It actually was an argument years ago whether any of those platforms should be legal for IDPA SSP or USPSA Production since they’re basically “factory cheaters” out of the box, competing against DAO’s like Glock’s and such instead of 2011’s like they should be.
Just be careful if you own a 320 or are around them, since Sig has a reputation of not doing the proper and complete T&E, and the multiple reports of them going off by themselves is many and it’s been going on for a few years now… unless you believe in coincidence, best to watch your ass around them.
As for AIWB with a P320: ask yourself if you’d be cool with sticking a cocked and loaded 1911 with a pinned grip-safety in your pants after taking it off-safe… because that’s kind of what you’d be doing…
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Do you know if the 365XL has the same trigger mechanism as the 320 or is it more like a SW or even Glock?
It's more like M&P. The P365 design has a striker safety that is the functional equivalent to an M&P striker safety plunger (dome style) that is not a part of the striker assembly. If you lock your slide to the rear, you can see the safety (black in color) blocking the striker (silver in color) underneath the slide towards the rear.
Pulling the trigger moves the trigger bar which toggles the safety lever which pushes the striker safety out of the way as well as allowing the trigger bar to drop the sear, allowing the striker to release.
There is no redundant ledge on the P365 sear in case of sear slippage or safety failure. The redundant ledge is on the striker.
There is no lever or cocking mechanism designed on the trigger bar or other related parts that drives the striker farther backwards to to position the striker's primary sear ledge behind the sear.
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I've never had my manual safety accidentally un-click and shoot me.
As long as that 100% success rate continues, my carry pistol will always have a manual safety.
Like I've said before ... if that extra second to go from safe to fire means I die, then it was clearly my time to exit this troubled planet..
As long as that 100% success rate continues, my carry pistol will always have a manual safety.
Like I've said before ... if that extra second to go from safe to fire means I die, then it was clearly my time to exit this troubled planet..
The P320 can be had with a manual safety (M17 and M18)
The P365 and P365XL can also be had with a manual safety.
As a huge fan of manual safeties, it always bugs me when folks are ragging on about how nobody should make pistols with manual safeties anymore.
Because unfortunately somebody in the marketing department of the manufacturers might listen to said loud voices and not put offer that important option.
I don't get it. aside from marketing BS or the mil bought it. What's the draw to want one of these. Serious question? I have zero interest in a P320/P365. How is that not a step back in quality from a 226/229?? Couple ounces lighter ok, what else?
The only Sig I own is a West German P226 that has never malfunctioned.
For carry I currently have a Walther P99c AS. No safety, however it has a true de-cocker. First shot is true DA with a long albeit smooth pull & from then it's a true SA with short reset. Trigger is very good IMO & so are ergo's. Of coarse they quit making the P99 likely do to cost & profit margins.
I love innovation, but quality seems to be taking a back seat to quantity & production cost.
The only carry gun currently on my radar is the Shield Plus in 30 Super carry with the safety.
The only Sig I own is a West German P226 that has never malfunctioned.
For carry I currently have a Walther P99c AS. No safety, however it has a true de-cocker. First shot is true DA with a long albeit smooth pull & from then it's a true SA with short reset. Trigger is very good IMO & so are ergo's. Of coarse they quit making the P99 likely do to cost & profit margins.
I love innovation, but quality seems to be taking a back seat to quantity & production cost.
The only carry gun currently on my radar is the Shield Plus in 30 Super carry with the safety.
I have virtually every modern striker fired pistol, 8 M&P 9's (1.0 and 2.0's), 10 Glocks (G17,23,19's ,43's), Sig P320 / 365, HKP7M13 and on and on. Hundreds of thousands of rounds down range collectively. I have completely disassembled / re-assembled all of them a gazillion times. My M&P technical manual has been an expert reference for 10 years. Your experience may be different.
I read a lot of mud slinging regarding how striker fired pistols are not DAO. When comparing them to amount of hammer travel occurs with DAO revolvers or even DAO pistol e.g. Sig P250 / P290 RS the amount of striker spring movement is miniscule, however the striker pistols still are technically DAO's. Some still want to squabble with the DAO designation despite the factory designating them so.
You can demonstrate the required amount of striker spring compression in all these platforms by the simple test described below.
A few out takes from authored Manuals on the P320 and P365. I am pretty sure I have disassembled them and have a comprehensive understanding as to their mechanical function.
I am so done with this thread.
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My everyday carry is a SIG P938 (9mm) with a manual safety. Compact, light weight, light print, 8 rounds, manual safety. I always remember the "Rule of 3" ... the average concealed carry incident is 3 yards, uses 3 rounds, and lasts 3 seconds. The P938 does everything I need it to with that in mind. If I need a magazine with 18 rounds for CCW ... then I'm probably hanging out in the wrong neighborhood.
If we are being honest you'll more
than likely never use the pistol
In a defensive situation so by your line of thinking just leave it at home....
No reason to be prepared for out of the ordinary circumstances.
By that logic ... doing "nothing" is better than preparing properly for the vast majority of unexpected circumstances.
Hummm ... interesting logic.
I get it though ... to some ... the whole "manual safety" thing is a religious issue.
For me, not shooting myself by accident is way more important than being ready to more quickly shoot someone else.
That said ... I can respect your perspective, without agreeing with it.
Yeah, that has zero to do with what I typed. You picked out one completely incorrect point from your comment about safeties. Your point reads like “prepare for just over the minimum” which is really stupid when you can easily be well over prepared and not have a much bigger firearms a ton of crap in you’re pockets.
I’ll explain it slow...“I always remember the "Rule of 3" ... the average concealed carry incident is 3 yards, uses 3 rounds, and lasts 3 seconds. The P938 does everything I need it to with that in mind.”
It stupid to prepare for just over bare minimum of what might happen, I’d rather carry 18 and not need it than 8 and wish I had 10 more. You don’t buy only enough fuel to last the distances you’re driving or only enough food to last through the storm that’s just “passing through”.
Half the morons you need to worry about have big extended mags do to rap videos, but “I only need 8”. There’s a good reason they are making higher capacity easily concealed pistols, it’s smart to carry more rounds.
If people didn’t care about round count and ease of reloading quickly we’d all still be carrying revolvers daily.
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It comes down to which school of thought you fall under. With the striker released (after pulling trigger), can you fully cock the striker and and release it with only a trigger pull? Basically a second strike, double strike, re-strike (whatever you want to call it) capability. If so, the trigger mechanism functions as double action. If not, then it's not a double action. You would have to manipulate the slide on a P350/365 and many other striker fired pistols in order to have the striker ready to be released again with a trigger pull.
I've handled a few fellow competitors Sig P320 platform pistols out of curiosity. The slide to frame fit on all of them was sloppy as hell. This is troubling to me in that the sear is in the frame and its amount of engagement with the tail hook on the striker can vary a good bit. Couple this with tolerance stacking of production guns and it certainly raises concerns with me. The slide to frame rail fit on any of my Glocks is at least 80% tighter than any of the P320s I've handled.
Like Baltimore!
Walther in Baltimore config. She's tall with the extended mag though 5.25"
I actually wouldn't want a safety on the P99. It's a striker fired DA/SA carried de-cocked. Button on the top of slide is the de-cocker. I don't know of any other DA/SA striker pistols.
They were used by European LE for a long time with an excellent rep.
I have looked at the P938 & I like it because it's kind of old school Sig & that was my point before. Good quality, but low capacity.
The shield plus in 30 super is a bit bigger than the P938 but adds 6 rounds with the flush mag @4.4" tall & + 9 @ 4.6" same width as 938, but double stack.
I like to support good innovation & I've been wanting someone to do something similar to this caliber for a while.
I wasn't trying to insult anyone earlier about whether they do or do not have enough experience or whatever with these designs...
The point I was trying to make is: while pretty much all of the polymer/striker guns are "technically" considered DAO guns (or passed some sort of required test to earn that delineation), there is a difference between what most would consider a "true DAO", where, at rest, the striker isn't supposed to have enough energy stored in it to light off a round (usually accomplished by only partially compressing the striker-spring), and a whole vast subset of "DAO in name only" guns (most of them newer to the party), that when at rest, have enough stored energy in their strikers for something no bueno to happen if the striker were to somehow get loose... ...which is something that seems to keep happening now and again with Sig P320's.
Obviously, it's a rare occurrence, the Sigs are popular in the gun games and there are lots of them out there with Mil/LE peeps, but alas... seems like something's fucked up, and you can bet your ass Sig isn't going to admit it if they can help it.
The point I was trying to make is: while pretty much all of the polymer/striker guns are "technically" considered DAO guns (or passed some sort of required test to earn that delineation), there is a difference between what most would consider a "true DAO", where, at rest, the striker isn't supposed to have enough energy stored in it to light off a round (usually accomplished by only partially compressing the striker-spring), and a whole vast subset of "DAO in name only" guns (most of them newer to the party), that when at rest, have enough stored energy in their strikers for something no bueno to happen if the striker were to somehow get loose... ...which is something that seems to keep happening now and again with Sig P320's.
Obviously, it's a rare occurrence, the Sigs are popular in the gun games and there are lots of them out there with Mil/LE peeps, but alas... seems like something's fucked up, and you can bet your ass Sig isn't going to admit it if they can help it.
And yet you obviously haven't taken the time to understand how they actually work. If you think the P320 cocks the striker to the rear in any significant amount as the trigger is pulled, you're wrong, full stop. If it doesn't cock the striker to the rear with trigger pull, then it's a single action. Hell just look in the back of the slide with a bright light while you dry fire the gun - you can see what it does and doesn't do.
Even the article you quoted about it says the trigger "feels like other DAO pistols" and then explains in the next sentence that it is not a DAO system. It's poorly worded, but you didn't even seem to read what you quoted. Worse, you haven't taken the time to consider what a double action vs single action even means; your very first quote was that all of these pistols hold the striker nearly fully cocked (wrong, not all of them) and that they're all DAO as a result. That's not what DAO means.
This is a pretty important point to understand, and worth re-reading.
As a side note to that quoted comment - an interesting example of "factory cheaters" is the Walther PPQ and related systems. While they have a long "DAO-like" trigger pull, that long stroke does nothing but disable some internal safeties, until the end of travel where it trips a (usually) very clean and crisp single action. Even the clones, like my Canik TP9SFx (a clone of the Q5) can be tuned to a very nice and crisp trigger with nothing but a spring change. IIRC, mine has all stock parts except a Glock factory striker spring and safety plunger spring, which gives a fairly light albeit long initial travel, and then one of the cleanest and crispest sub-3 lb trigger breaks I've experienced in a striker fired pistol. Cheater trigger indeed; I wouldn't carry it AIWB but it's so far ahead of something like a well tuned Glock trigger that it really is a bit of a cheat in that regard. I experienced nearly the same thing with a pair of PPQ pistols, with triggers almost as good using nothing but well broken in factory triggers.
It’s a shitty, 1890s, Iver Johnson, failure of a design. Gaston Glock revived it because of how cheaply it could be made. Walter made the first true SA version. Now it’s just stupid. People liked the hammer, because you could see it. Now people can’t fix a burnt out lightbulb, and the don’t care if they know how it works so long as it does.
Striker pistols are a sign of the apocalypse.
Striker pistols are a sign of the apocalypse.
There's always a village idiot to spout this bullshit when the subject comes up.
Maybe you should tell Elishja Dicken what an idiot he is for carrying so much ammo and killing a mass murderer from 40 yards away inside a mall.........
It's a good example of why not to extrapolate a larger assumption from a smaller body of knowledge.
I just played around with making some crude measurements of rearward striker travel on a Gen5 Glock 19 using a digital caliper as a depth gauge, and it appears to have about 0.150" of rearward striker movement between full reset and trigger break. A stock FN 509T has about 0.120" of rearward striker movement. A 509C with the Apex Action Enhancement kit (trigger + sear) has only 0.090" of movement, which provides a strong hint as to how the trigger feel has been "enhanced".
Not a fan of this logic at all... the ole "I'm in the wrong neighborhood" crap. Except all of the mass shooters weren't in bad neighborhoods... the biggest bank robberies aren't in bad neighborhoods... and MOST home robberies and break-in's are carried out by more than one person.
If you only feel you need 8 rounds then go for it, but saying you only need more if you're "in a bad neighborhood" is a lame deflection.
I used to go on that OLD information and thought I didn't need much capacity and such.
Then came 2020 and later and right up to like last week where mobs, both large and small are attacking good folks like a bunch of savages and are perfectly happy to try to kill you.
So the name of the game is bring enough for everyone.
Kenosha Kyle had to shoot 3 people before the mob that was trying to kill him began to think about stopping the chase, and even then if you watch the video there were more folks looking to see if he turns his back so they could get him.
(Ironically of course the criminals were a bunch of white crackers with criminal records that were upset because some slightly brown kid was trying to keep them from burning down a minority owned gas station ... because.... black lives)
Then you take a look at that issue here in Plano right near me where some panhandling teens were told they can't do that in a business and a gang of them went well 13% is an appropriate description and violently beat the manager causing him serious injury and threatened and assaulted people in a very fast encounter.
Well you need to bring enough for everyone and that everyone might be a lot of folks.
Some helpful advice along these lines is "don't go anywhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun".
I will say that these conversations can get a bit silly. Have a gun, know how to use it, don't sweat the corner cases.
Ehhh, I get what you mean but I wouldn’t go anywhere without a gun lol, provided I’m not physically checked, e.g. concert. The whole premise around that mindset, or at minimum that phrase is flawed. Those phrases fall into the same category I put "it's just as good as..." statements. The reason I don't care for them, regardless of how silly they may be, is because these conversations last a long time and attract new or young shooters or concealed carriers and I'd prefer they be as well equipped as possible.
...but I couldn't agree more with your last statement. Whether its a J-frame or a full size Staccato, dudes need to take more training and practice more.
And per usual, we're way off the rails on this conversation.
Regardless how anyone wants to word it - if a guy is planning for "good enough for the average gunfight", he's already planning to lose the other half of the time. That's pretty poor planning. Especially if one is claiming the "average" is 3 rounds and 3 yards; I don't think that's been true for a long long time.
Avoid the quest for mediocrity. We can all be better than that. Personally, I think overkill and "unfair" advantages are a better goal for this sort of thing. In my own favor of course. If I can comfortably carry a good fighting pistol that's capable of consistent body shots at 100 yards, and enough ammo to take out a couple SUVs full of bad guys, I'm gonna do that instead of some 3 yard J-frame or mouse gun. Oh wait, I already do. Every single day, even at home.
Avoid the quest for mediocrity. We can all be better than that. Personally, I think overkill and "unfair" advantages are a better goal for this sort of thing. In my own favor of course. If I can comfortably carry a good fighting pistol that's capable of consistent body shots at 100 yards, and enough ammo to take out a couple SUVs full of bad guys, I'm gonna do that instead of some 3 yard J-frame or mouse gun. Oh wait, I already do. Every single day, even at home.
Yeah you’re wrong. Happens over 100 times and Sig admitted the defect with the secondary seat disengaging without trigger pull and here’s one on video showing officer walking along and shot:
One of America's Favorite Handguns Is Allegedly Firing On Its Owners
SIG Sauer’s P320 pistol has wounded more than 80 people who say they didn’t pull the trigger — and no U.S. agency has the power to intervene.
www.thetrace.org
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