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Sig Sauer wins NGSW contract
- Thread starter Milf Dots
- Start date
This is partially true about the 416
If every line unit had the gustov at the start of the GWOT, HUNDREDS of more American soldiers would be alive today and thousands less maimed and injured. Sending guys to clear a building full of shitheads when you cant get CAS/Fires but could drop the fucker with a thermobaric and kill everyone inside with zero risk makes to much sense for big army.
By the time they realized the game changer it was post 2010, most of the real fighting was over.
One of the more intelligent things I have read here.
HE, actionable Intel, and logistics are how you win wars.
The real money is setting yourself up as a fake minority disadvantaged business.That means literally you are anything except a white male person. Maybe the 6.8's shape feeds reliably than grendel or the ARC loads? I am hoping they went to a piston rifle for the sake of our troops lives . They can upgrade M4s w a BBl change,Bolt face and magazines.Nahhh that would make sense and save taxpayers money. The SEC DEF code name : Token is busy teaching CRT anyway
the 6.8 round the spear uses is not 6.8 SPC. it doesn't even fit in a small frame like a regular AR 15. the contract requirement was for a ballistic analog to .270 win, with the secondary requirement that it had to be the same size or smaller than a standard 7.62x51 Nato cartridge. a bunch of people wrote the contract off from day 1 because of the near-impossible ammunition performance requirements. then some companies actually managed to achieve it.
they didn't rebarrel the M4 because doing so would not have come close meeting the stated requirements, end result is the XM5 is basically a Large-frame piston AR made as light as reasonably possible while remaining strong enough to handle the crazy cartridge they made. it's as close as you can reasonably get to an M4 while meeting the Army's requirements.
I want to see a flyweight female private with the new M5 on full-auto lol (emptying at least half the mag). I wouldn’t want to be anywhere effing near that!
I mean, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it even if it was an M4
the first Spears in civilian hands are just now clearing the eform purgatory, so we'll see what the recoil is like. supposedly it's not as obnoxious as a full size .308 since sig built in some recoil compensation of some kind, the few sources I've seen commenting on it putting it somewhere between an AK and a properly-buffered AR10 in 6.5
No way to know for sure until we see some hard data. Hopefully the youtube crowd will oblige with the civi version.
for me my interest mostly is in the opportunities this opens up for compact hunting rifles, and increased performance in existing large-frame semis. Good accuracy and velocity from a shorter barrel than the usual bolt actions would make something like a DT SRS Covert chambered in .277 Fury very attractive to me for hunting.
The vids I’ve seen show the rifle really twisting when shot in bursts. Probably because of the round velocity and pressure. Maybe the larger the round diameter, the more twisting leverage it has?I mean, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it even if it was an M4
the first Spears in civilian hands are just now clearing the eform purgatory, so we'll see what the recoil is like. supposedly it's not as obnoxious as a full size .308 since sig built in some recoil compensation of some kind, the few sources I've seen commenting on it putting it somewhere between an AK and a properly-buffered AR10 in 6.5
No way to know for sure until we see some hard data. Hopefully the youtube crowd will oblige with the civi version.
for me my interest mostly is in the opportunities this opens up for compact hunting rifles, and increased performance in existing large-frame semis. Good accuracy and velocity from a shorter barrel than the usual bolt actions would make something like a DT SRS Covert chambered in .277 Fury very attractive to me for hunting.
What’s the twist rate on that puppy?
On full-auto, I can imagine a light weight person in mid-air spinning around the bore, like an Elmer Fudd or Wile E. Coyote.
No interest in owning this or anything else made by Sig that isn't a Romeo4, but I wouldn't mind sampling some of the hookers & blow they're handing out to secure these contracts.
There is a lot of truth to this. It is also the a large reason that HK won the IAR trials. The HK barrel absolutely destroyed the competition in durability tests.
And as stated the same isn’t true today anymore. Many companies offer CHF barrels that have closed the gap. As a result the 416 is being replaced in JSOC. The Navy components are issuing Noveske 10.5 in 5.56 and 300 blk with DA Sandman-S suppressors. The Army component is getting Geissele SD 10.3in rifles.
So much for the external piston is better narrative…
external piston *can* be better, but it usually takes more time and cost to get a piston to be as accurate, and as durable vs a stoner-DI system , largely because the american manufacturing industry has gotten very good at making quality AR components as inexpensively as possible.
granted the above is only true if you know exactly what suppressor and ammunition it will be used with, which in military contracts is not a hard thing to do.
the NGSW designs seem to have pretty much all embraced the piston design largely because a piston will be lighter than the equivalent St-DI system, along with removing the need for a buffer tube to make achieving the size constraints of the contract easier.
granted the above is only true if you know exactly what suppressor and ammunition it will be used with, which in military contracts is not a hard thing to do.
the NGSW designs seem to have pretty much all embraced the piston design largely because a piston will be lighter than the equivalent St-DI system, along with removing the need for a buffer tube to make achieving the size constraints of the contract easier.
Bullshit.
People keep making dumb shit statements like this with zero evidence to back it up.
Oh and show me what model SR15 you can have in Maryland going back 20 years. I will wait.
There's no doubt that influential leaders in JSOC think the m4a1 design is now good enough (after a few decades of revisions in design to get it closer to but not AS reliable and durable as the m16a4)- that they just order rifles on Big Green's tab rather than spend SoF budget on rifles. That savings is used for things they feel are more important.
If that makes the Di fanfems feel like Di is better than Piston- God bless them.
I'll likely buy a Geissele rifle in the next year or so- because I like both Di and Piston.
I just love to trigger the Di fanfems!
If that makes the Di fanfems feel like Di is better than Piston- God bless them.
I'll likely buy a Geissele rifle in the next year or so- because I like both Di and Piston.
I just love to trigger the Di fanfems!
are you even aware of what you’re arguing with anymore? the post you quoted says DI is superior for a specific ammunition/supressor combination you can tune for......
as a MD resident and 2A activist pretty sure I know my state’s laws better than you
you clearly didn’t read the response in the other thread, so until you do I’m not giving you the time of day.
You like most in here are not smart enough, cannot read and fail to understand the information already presented. The video by Larry, explains exactly where , when and why specifically a 416 has an advantage. (Its the only piston AR than a LMT that will not shoot itself apart). Short barrel, wide variety of ammo, suppressed and lots of full auto. If you do not have to have 4 of them a DI gun is a better choice. Point blank , the End.
Since then both of the major JSOC units using the 416 have ditched it and went back to DI guns. Most people when they are proven wrong stop, but you want to keep going.
Also, as someone who lived there for 20 years and HAD to move to Virginia before i could buy a SR15, I am pretty sure I know the laws better than you. That and I have bought or transferred guns with almost every FFL in the entire state from Hagerstown to ocean city. In fact, I own more guns STILL in the state than you have bought in your entire lifetime. I have a MSP designated collectors license and half the MSP in Jesup know me by name. You start to raise eyebrows when you are buying 5-10+ guns a month without an FFL.
If you knew the laws you would know there is no legal way to own one. Enage armament sold them for a while before they got their dicks slapped. Its not an HBAR so it didn't work under the old rules and under the new rules the features DQ it. You could argue the LPR would meet some requirements but it had banned features and no HBAR marking which was the standard at the time. It was possible to slap together an upper and lower years ago, but you were still breaking the law and it was before the brace craze. It would technicaly have to be a pistol which are AR pistols (Banned by name)and none are on the handgun roster which is a requirement to be sold in the state.
Maybe you should stop fucking talking about things you don't even begin to understand.
1) An AR pistol is regulated as a pistol, so the FSA 2013 does not apply, only the MD handgun roster does, and there are many present on there.
2) “20 years ago” the maryland ban dates from 2013 while prior to that anything was simply “regulated” and purchasable with the appropriate paperwork.
3) The MSP slapped engage, got sued, and lost in court while admitting under oath that the website list they curate is not binding and only the letter of the MD criminal and public safety codes are.
4) The fact you cannot remove the carrier from an SR15 and use a carrier from a standard AR 15 makes it not a copy of a named banned rifle by letter of the law.
5) the SR 15 as factory configured does not fail the feature test, as it is not a ”centerfire rifle with detachable magazine and more than one of the following: flash suppressor, folding stock, grenade/flare launcher” a telescoping stock is NOT a folding stock in MD.
6) my local FFL has one on the goddamn wall.
you’re making a lot of assumptions about me without knowing anything about me, while I have only made one about you which so far has proven to be correct: you do not know the firearms laws of the state of Maryland like you think you do. Attacking the person and not the arguments is poor form.
The MSP is not a gospel source and has done just as much damage to gun rights in the state as the general assembly has by being obtuse, incapable of following their own rules, and willfully misinterpreting the letter of the law.
The fact your first paragraph actually agrees with my commentary instead of countering it but you seem to think it does makes this all the more hilarious.
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The problem with your claim is that JSOC isn’t getting M4A1 rifles from their parent services as service common equipment. They are paying a lot of money to buy premium DI rifles from Noveske and Geissele.
Even if your claim was true (I don't know that it is or isn't) that JSOC bought a few or many Noveskes and Geisseles, it doesn't prove that JSOC has abandoned piston based carbines and rifles. We already know that JSOC will be given many if not all of the 107,000 Sig m5s and m250s which are piston systems.
What officer rank and position would one have to hold in order to know FIRST HAND, every single small arms purchase of every unit in the four branches that make up JSOC, and to know if piston technology has been declared abandoned by JSOC?
As long as the Noveskes and/or Geisseles had been purchased before by one of the four parent branches, they're available to JSOC but charged against parent branch's budget, correct? Even if I'm wrong, that doesn't prove JSOC has abandoned piston based rifles.
I never claimed Di is being abandoned, but it appears some are claiming JSOC is abandoning piston guns. The Army's Sig m5/m250 contract seems to disprove the latter claim.
Some day I'll own both a Geissele Di gun AND a Sig SPEAR.
Never claimed they are abandoning all pistons. Just that the 416 is being replaced. They are still fielding MCXs in 300blk out and more than like a few HK guns as well.
Did you seriously suggest that JSOC will get 107,000 rifles of any variety?
And no, just because a service buys a piece of equipment does not mean that they are obligated to buy it for the units in SOCOM. The equipment has to be designated service common for them to do so unless the larger command decides to do so out of the goodness of their heart. Example is the M4 is service common and is supplied to MARSOC. The M27 is not and MARSOC would have to use their own funds to buy them.
NGSW is an army program and doesn’t prove anything about JSOC or their equipment wants and needs.
Don't waste your time trying to reason with him.
He has NO idea what he is talking about, has already been force fed information from the source and still wants to argue like a child.
He is using buzz words and terms like he heard someone talk about something once, but doesn't actually understand how any of it works. Anyone who has worked in DOD contracting can smell the bullshit from a mile away.
You cannot fix stupid.
Pot, kettle?
Would still like to hear an apology for directly insulting me now that you've been proven incorrect via direct quotation of Maryland Public safety code §5–101. (r)(2) and Criminal Code §4–301. , along with current court precedent.
Good to know piston guns aren't being abandoned, and that more than just the Sig NGSW are being bought.
I'm not .Mil, but even with those who are it doesn't seem like anyone here is high ranking enough to know all the small arms being bought for every unit in JSOC. That logically would seem to apply to what is being abandoned by every unit as well.
It appears reasonable that active SoF troops would have some knowledge of what is and isn't being procured for those units they're closest to.
I'm not .Mil, but even with those who are it doesn't seem like anyone here is high ranking enough to know all the small arms being bought for every unit in JSOC. That logically would seem to apply to what is being abandoned by every unit as well.
It appears reasonable that active SoF troops would have some knowledge of what is and isn't being procured for those units they're closest to.
Are you sure they are Geissele complete rifles? Or maybe just Geissele URG-I uppers? And my reading suggests SoF, after evaluations, prefers 11.5 inch barrels on their URG-I uppers to the 10.3 inch barrels.
Not trying to break balls, just want accurate info.
If they're just buying Geissele uppers and not Geissele complete rifles, then your above post is wrong- their parent services are indeed paying for at least the complete m4a1 lowers if not entire m4a1 rifles.
(Again, just wanting the most accurate info.)
USASOC is funding the URG-I uppers. They are built on M4A1 rifles using a Geissele rails and charging handles and Daniel Defense barrels. They are currently fielding 14.5 inch guns with plans for 11.5 as well.
The Army element in JSOC is fielding Geissele SD 10.3 rifles with Surefire OBC carriers. They are complete rifles.
The Navy element in JSOC is fielding complete 10.3 in Noveske Rifles. They are complete rifles.
Better read that article again MD. The statement provided was an example list of some MOS's of the folks the Army intends that should receive these new firearms. I don't see where it says the arms would not be issued by unit, where was that written? What you said is not accurate, just like most of the garbage posted here in this thread.
I'd postulate that none of the folks posting here have ever fired an XM5 or XM250. Yet they provide expert opinions. What a load of garbage.
Until I have the opportunity to handle one, give it a good examination and fire it, not making an opinion.
Remember many similar idiotic statements made before the M17/M18 came out. Turns out it has been a successful program, but lots of BS is still written with no evidence, no photos yet it still spews forth from the keyboard experts! Cheers
US Army Shares Details on Next Generation Squad Weapons
The US Army has shared some further detail on the newly selected Next Generation Squad Weapon XM5 rifle and XM250 light machine gun.
www.thefirearmblog.com
"In terms of when will active duty close combat force personnel begin to see the rifles, the Army says that “some Soldiers expected to receive the weapons by the fourth quarter of 2023.” As we reported earlier it appears the plan is to roll the weapons out based on MOS rather than unit with the Army now giving some example MOS that will see the weapons first, including 11B infantrymen, 19D cavalry scouts,12B combat engineers, 68W medics, and 13F forward observers."
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