Advanced Marksmanship Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

[jonah74]

I'm a former SEAL sniper and will be deploying for some contracting work in 3 weeks. Some of you may know that when a company is starting out they sometimes don't get the ability to dope in weapons before hitting the ground. In 2003 i deployed to Iraq with and we were buying Ak's on the black market and having to take some less than ideal shots.

Fortunately this new contract will have a Barrett light 50 but will have no capacity for range time. I've only doped in with range time, what are my options for showing up on a <span style="text-decoration: underline">ship</span> with a new 50 and getting it close. I was told it will have a 32 power leopold but i couldn't find much info on such a scope. I was also told we may use a laser bullet to get it close.

I have my dope book from previous 50 work 6 years ago on 10x scope, but i was thinking i could figure out the drop from this. I also considered using iron sights if i had to.

Questions:

What is the procedure for using a laser bullet to dope in? Can i figure out a 400yard shot and then just hold high or low if different? Will this even work?

IS there a spec sheet for drop for a new Barrett 50 that i can estimate dome dope?

Can i do a 25 yard sight in like the M-4? Possibility i may not be able to shoot one round at any point but before operational usage.

Any other ideas? Tips? Suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Yeah i got a tip for you. You were not a SEAL sniper or you would know this. I would be mighty careful saying that around some people out there your way. Just out of curiousity what contractor are you going to be working for? Buying AK's off the black market, come on dude your full of shit

 

[jonah74]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Than you don't know. SEAL sniper school is 3 months long and is a wealth of info over 5 weapons. I graduated about 8 years ago. SEALs spend a lot of time on many different aspects (dive, land warfare, VBSS, CQD, etc.) and i didn't spend my whole career behind a sniper rifle. I worked for triple canopy, and we did buy weapons in town before they cleared m-4s that were held up with customs issues. Regardless, you don't have to believe it. I'd appreciate a thoughtful response from experts in the field that spend more time behind a scope.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

really experts in the field that spend more time behind the scope. PM Lowlight and tell him you were a SEAL sniper, im sure he will help. Or LoneWolfUSMC or any of the other various school trained scout snipers from the Marine Corps, including myself. Just out of curiousity when did you get your DD214?

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Popcorn?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

buttered please.....



i already dialed operator on my vintage dial table phone.....

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

i dont know, me thinks that we wont hear from the little Froggie 219

 

[birddog762]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

i think your on the money!

 

[Guest]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

My first question is who the fuck is planning this goat rope you say your going to? I'd be asking myself, do I really want to roll with this kind of Cluster Fuck from the gate? Some of your questions don't add up with your other supplied info.

Name, Class #, and name of swim buddy, might get you some traction if the data checks.

Edit to add, I'm leaving in about 30 min an will be w/o a keyboard until Sat afternoon, but fell free to post your bonafides, theres a few others here that can check as well. Cheers

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

I really should spend more time on this site.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

He's gone........I'll bet
Never been mil myownself, but have 3 kids that have/are and this clowns bullshit was dripping.
Anyway to "out" this piece of work?
Respectfully,
LG

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

You should look into Nigerian Ice Bullets

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

yeah i hear those ice bullets are the newest rage, i make my own here at the house, they are good out to about 2 miles

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Frog219, PM me. You know "Dog" Pritc.... or Jason G....? Some of these internet guys wouldn't recognize your langauge.

Trigger

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Clowns, back off this guy, he's genuine. And he's speaking a bit above your heads.

I know the project he is working on, it's genuine, so unhitch from your internet commando worlds, arch, and breathe through your noses.

Fer crap sake...

Trigger

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

im just curious what his class number was and what his name was. Im friends with a few that i worked with over in Iraq and it would be easy to find out if this guy is legit. I dont buy it though

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

nomenclature.......

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clowns, back off this guy, he's genuine. And he's speaking a bit above your heads.

I know the project he is working on, it's genuine, so unhitch from your internet commando worlds, arch, and breathe through your noses.

Fer crap sake...

Trigger </div></div>

If this is the case, I want to be the first to offer the most deepest and profound apologies! Frog219-Sir, I'm sorry for my words! I WAS WRONG!
You have my deepest repect,
Lumpy Grits

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

I think you guys can let it go... I would have to run the curve for the gun, but I think you can zero it 4.5" high at 50 yards.

But I would have to put it on the computer to be sure.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

yeah if this guy is legit, i would have no problems apologizing as well. If he is thanks for your service and i apologize.

 

[Kcsoccer52]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time


my apologies, welcome!

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Trigger50 is the guy to go to for this - he literally wrote the book on long-range shooting with a .50.

If I really couldn't shoot the rifle at all, and I had a good reliable laser cartridge, I'd be tempted to go with a parallel bore zero, which could be done at any range available - the longer the better, of course, at a distance where you could still see the laser.

You'd just make a two marks which were vertically apart exactly the sight-height over the bore. Then put the laser on the bottom mark, and align the POA of the scope to the top one and zero it out. Then use ballistic data for the come-ups. It wouldn't be perfect if you didn't have a good idea of the muzzle velocity, but it'd probably be pretty close.

Trigger50 - I'm curious as to what you'd recommend. If you don't want to post it, I'd be pleased if you'd drop me a P.M. with it.

Thanks!

 

[jonah74]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Hehe,

Thanks for the welcome everyone, almost makes me miss being in a platoon again. Excuse my absence from the computer all day i am trying to get a few things done before i leave. And... double excuse the lack of knowledge on my part after being out several years i hope you can commend someone for asking about unknowns before he jumps back in the field rather than just show up unprepared.

My class is 219 like the Frog219 handle. I deployed to Afghanistan and then Iraq for the march up the East side with 1MARDIV in the beginning. Always thought Marines were a bit brain washed but i gained a new respect for them when i saw the gut check they endured eating one MRE a day, low on water and barely any sleep. I have DD-214, shows all my schools and my 5326 NEC. For the really interested i was also a SAR swimmer out of HAwaii and an SK. So i run whole gambit from crimping blasting caps to stocking ship parts. PM me if you need a recommendation on proper store room stacking procedures or best way to secure your fins to your back.

If there are any SEALs who want to PM me and check on my credentials i don't mind, nothing to hide. But i'm sure most Team guys don't really care enough about this thread.

So thanks for the few ideas that came up, i'm interested to see if anyone has a solution(sounds like a good use for a forum).

I'll PM Lowlight and Trigger to see if they can help me.

Hugs & Kisses,
Frogman219

 

[wjwill]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah i hear those ice bullets are the newest rage, i make my own here at the house, they are good out to about 2 miles </div></div>


Frozen K00L-aid bullets man..... its all about the fruity flavors.

 

[Long_Action]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

This is how my experience went with sighting in my 50

1. I used a leupold rangefinder and a Laserlyte and sighted my 50 in at 50yards
2. First shot was on paper @ 100 yards hit at 2 oclock 6" off center
3. Realized scope was too Far Forward when @ 22X and moved it back and inchish
4. 2nd shot off paper
5. resighted in the scope @ 50yards
6. 3rd shot back on paper @ 12oclock
7. 4,5,6 gun is now sighted in @ 100 yards

I was never in the military due to heart surgery but The buddy who sighted in my 50 with me was a army sniper and it took both of us a shot or 2 just to get comfortable to the gun. Good luck hitting a target if your life depends on it @ 400 yards when your setup is untested.

 

[Long_Action]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah i hear those ice bullets are the newest rage, i make my own here at the house, they are good out to about 2 miles </div></div>

What grain are you using? Here is my latest prototype

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Funny thing about this thread is that some of you just dont get it.

I hate to break the news to you but if T50 says the guy is genuine then so be it and respect should be given if for nothing more than respect for T50s word, as he was involved deeply in writing the SOTIC manual that many here learned from. He was pioneer in pushing external ballistic knowledge beyond what military said was "normal".

Thanks

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Indeed. As I said, he wrote the book. And here it is:

Hard Target Interdiction

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Yup here is my copy as well GREAT read. Took some time to do and still go back and reread it every now and then.

I think the parallel bore zero is also the best way to go. I am sure that Trig will also think so as it is described in this book and only takes one round to confirm and then run all the ENV data and range.

 

[wjwill]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed. As I said, he wrote the book. And here it is:

Hard Target Interdiction </div></div>

I did a google search for "SOTIC manual" and came up with this.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15647571/Sniper-Traing-Manual

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

That would not qualify as TP compared to HTI. It is as I said before very heavy reading. More like a med school textbook except different kind of surgery.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed. As I said, he wrote the book. And here it is:

Hard Target Interdiction </div></div>

I did a google search for "SOTIC manual" and came up with this.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15647571/Sniper-Traing-Manual</div></div>

 

[wjwill]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would not qualify as TP compared to HTI. It is as I said before very heavy reading. More like a med school textbook except different kind of surgery.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed. As I said, he wrote the book. And here it is:

Hard Target Interdiction </div></div>

I did a google search for "SOTIC manual" and came up with this.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15647571/Sniper-Traing-Manual</div></div> </div></div>


Is the HTI used for 50 cal only or can it be related to other calibers also? If I can use it to learn about 308, then I'll buy it.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

It does have a lot of info that will cross over to lesser calibers. It is a must get especially since the price is right at amazon. I paid the $60 some dollars for it many years ago and it is well worth the money.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

I would say the book is applicable more to extra long range shooting with a heavy caliber, anything from .338 Lapua Magnum up.

The book could use updating. A lot of the manual methods in the book for calculating shot corrections are unnecessary with modern PDA-based ballistic programs. On the other hand, if you're interested in the theory, it's certainly worth reading.

If you're doing ELR shooting, though, I'd read it.

 

[wjwill]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Lindy, I want to learn long range shooting. Though a PDA will help me get there, it doesn't teach me anything being it does the math for me. I want to be able to figure out everything without a computer.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

I think you might find this more useful:

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting

 

[Jasmck]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Brian Litz's Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shootong is an excellent reference. So is his website, linked above. Many useful articles.

James

 

[wjwill]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you might find this more useful:

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting </div></div>


I just ordered his book. I'll be taking it with me offshore for some good reading.

Thanx Lindy

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Guys,

I'm nothing special, but I am disturbed how tast this "thread" went from an anwarranted bashing of a real operator to a stinking book. I got a few apologies my way, but it wasn't about ME, it was about someone going into harm's way.

If it were me, i'd be humbly scraping shit from my face. For those that did publicly apologize on the site, very fine. Next time don't be so quick to jump, especially if you're not talented enough to read the language for what it was/is.

Trigger

 

[Long_Action]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Trigger I hope Frog219 is able to get his rifle sighted in w/his laser bullet. I just wouldn't trust a 400 yard shot w/out running a few rounds thru the barrel first. Best of luck to ya Frog219!

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Agreed,

Those chambered laser "bullets" don't account for the zeroed in or out characteristics of the:

Gun's recoil.

Surface your are shooting off of, his environment is likely to be unstable, more affecting the zero.

How the shooter instinctively holds the gun.

etc. etc.

Trig

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Sure. A poor solution, though, tends to be better than nothing.

What's your recommendation, if he can't fire the rifle at all?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

I don't think it was just about a stinking book. Lindy, Later, and myself mentioned your book as it does mention parallel bore zero and adjusting for anywhere you happen to be. I have talked with you for years now all the way back to our biggerhammer days. Lindy, Later, and myself did not write anywhere that we doubt his credibility and in my opinion were only trying to help. I am in San Diego and only 30 to 40 minutes from Coronado and could site the rifle in for him in a couple of hours time including driving if he wanted. I would even load some for him as I would want to "do my part". It can be easy to be skeptical at times but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,

I'm nothing special, but I am disturbed how tast this "thread" went from an unwarranted bashing of a real operator to a stinking book. I got a few apologies my way, but it wasn't about ME, it was about someone going into harm's way.

If it were me, I'd be humbly scraping shit from my face. For those that did publicly apologize on the site, very fine. Next time don't be so quick to jump, especially if you're not talented enough to read the language for what it was/is.

Trigger</div></div>

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Lindy, Mechanic,.... My apologies for being cranky, got 12 hrs. of needed sleep last night.

I am familiar with his unique situation, there simply is NO opportunity to pre-zero this rifle, it's not a geographical issue, or any other issue that can be resolved at our level. He knows how to do the task, IF shooting a bullet were the option. It is not an option.

Like mentioned above, I would try to do a through the bore visual alignment. With an M82 or M99, it's about impossible though, so a laser bullet isn't a bad idea, it might be the only idea.

So, given that we can pot a spot on a piece of paper OR can see through the bore...

1. With your eye through the bore, or laser on, adjust the day scope to Point of Aim, Point of Impact.

Based on the elevation tables I use, or a decent PDA program, you ADD the elevation of the sight above the bore converted to MOA.

Example, if your sight height is 3" and your doing this procedure at 100 yards, this value is "3".

2. Add the elevation needed at that zero, 2.50 for most guns, to the above value of "3". 2.5 + 3 = 5.5

3. This value of 5.5 is the value that you slip the elevation ring to on the scope. You are now coordinated as far as gun mechanics go. There are other things to consider...

4. RECOIL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE KNOWN RIFLE. The Barrett M82, M107 and M99 all recoil in a certain way due to the inline reciever type and the cushy butt pad. This motion is best described as circular.

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/triggerfifty#play/uploads/7/PoV_wrXpmTk[/video]

That video shows the circular motion i'm talking about, though it's on the Hecate and due to the bipod's location that causes this.

With THAT knowledge on board, the rifle will strike about 1.5 MOA high and 1.0 MOA right due to recoil characteristics. SO.... After slipping the elevation and windage to Point of Aim and Point of Impact, i'd SUBTRACT 1.5 MOA of elevation and DIAL LEFT 1.0 MOA, and reslip the rings to a value of 5.5 MOA Elevation and 0.0 MOA Windage.

Error due to type of ammunition used.... Can't do anything about it.

Ultimately, there are 2 more error situations that you cannot correct for in the zero process, unless the shooter knows his own characteristic for holding a heavy gun and what his body position does to influence the shot. Correct for ahead of time as you can.

Without being able to do any of that, accept that at nearer ranges, say 200 yards, you are going to have 100-200 percent error in your groups position on the target. SO... If you're shooting 200 yards, and the gun can group 6" at that range, your error capability is 12" to 18" group size at 200 yards. Place that footprint over the top of a man sized chest at 200 yards and you're running a decent chance of hitting your guy. At 500 yards though, your error footprint is 30" to 45". Not so good.

The reality of huge suck.

Trigger

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

me thinks them ice boolits are looking.....better all the time

 

[Lindy]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Thanks for the explanation.

Our thinking is similar. I suggested the parallel bore zero simply because it can be done at any range, if he can't use a known distance like 100 yards, which he might not, especially if the laser bullet is not very bright, or he's in some relatively confined space...

I'll have to do some research on how recoil affects the rifles I shoot most of the time.

Interesting topic, and that procedure might be useful to others - he's not the only person I've heard of with a similar problem.

We can just hope a high level of accuracy at much of a distance does not turn out to be necessary.

Thanks again.

 

[Graham]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the rifle will strike about 1.5 MOA high and 1.0 MOA right due to recoil characteristics. SO.... After slipping the elevation and windage to Point of Aim and Point of Impact, i'd SUBTRACT 1.5 MOA of elevation and DIAL LEFT 1.0 MOA, and reslip the rings to a value of 5.5 MOA Elevation and 0.0 MOA Windage.</div></div>Interesting analysis of the recoil characteristics for the Barrett. That's assuming no influence from incorrectly 'hard-holding' the rifle, correct?

 

[Triggerfifty]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Yep,

I'm aware of the bad effects of pulling too much on the Barrett POS. Identified this odd problem back in 94.

 

[jonah74]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

It may seem inconceivable to some that you could show up to a job as a civilian or in the military and you are inadequately equipped. In the military it was not about the gear it was about the men, you went with what you had. Imagine being deployed to Afghanistan, never having done snow training (Team 5 did, but 3 was desert), and then they buy a bunch of snow shoes, ice crimps, tents and tell you that we are going to do a one hour theory class on snow survival before taking off. We learned about digging a trench around your tent to drop the cold air away and a general theory about how to use snow shoes. Would you do the mission? You have to. That's the beauty of what is created in the military, men pushed beyond their limits and finding a way to succeed anyway you have to. The mission didn't happen, a huge blizzard came in and it would be impossible to extract us if they dropped us in.
I've deployed as a civilian in Iraq and been given a Dragunov with a loose scope that i chose not to use. I suppose i certainly could say "send me home, this is bullshit". But i don't think i'm wired for that. I was tasked to secure the safety of civilians with what we had and over 4 months we lost no one.
So ask me if i'm o.k. with showing up to work with the task of protecting U.S. civilians with superior gear but possibly inadequate dope on the guns and i'll do what i'm paid to do. Take years of training and increase the survivability of the crew.
Thanks for all the info, it's helpful. I was hoping to create this thread and find a new technology or magic answer to the limitations provided, but it seems the basics are the best answer. Get as much info to prepare the weapon system before hand and then take the best shot possible with a good spotter, making quick corrections.
And Trigger thanks for your wealth of knowledge and the docs you sent me.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Sighting in Barrett 50 with no range time

Please don't take this the wrong way.

It's threads like this that give me some relief that I'm just a Mud Marine and not a SEAL. SEALs are entitled to their due, and I have nothing but unreserved respect and admiration for them.

Bu I'm not cut from that cloth, and it's actually something of a relief that I'm not when is see threads like this.

The good natured banter's one thing; the nitpicking and often petty pissing-match-one-upmanship (what color is the boathouse roof at such and such a training site? etc...) that comes across in this thread and others of the like are something quite different. Yes; there's posers in the world, and yes, they definitely need to get their foreheads branded with a big 'P' so folks can see them coming. But just as rightly, there's a lot of hard working, hard charging SEALs and the like who simply won't bother to allow themselves to sink to some of the dialogue we see here. It makes on ponder just who's the poser, and what it actually takes to be one.

I know there's a lot of satisfaction in the never-any-recogition-job-is-its-own-reward sense. But being subjected to an incessant barrage of simply shit-for-brains jealousy and gee-you-don't-know that-so-you're-just-a-poser crap is a bit too rich for my diet.

I'm no SEAL, and I'd never make the grade, but if I could, I would think long and hard about volunteering after reading what passes for wisdom in some of these posts.

Some opportunities are worth putting up with a lot of dreck, but nothing's worth putting up with some of this stuff. Somebody really needs to tell some of these folks to STFU!!!

And now, I'll STFU...