Suppressors Silencer Welding

[Stealth-X]

Hi guys. Let me start off by asking this not turn into a SF vs AAC flame war. Now on to business.

Why do cores need to be welded at all. Simple question, but I'll expand. Is it a rotational issue? If it's all inside the outer tube and flush fit against the rest of the internals it really can't go anywhere, so why weld it? I'm picturing a washer baffle washer baffle stack where rotation wouldn't matter. So one spot welds and one fully welds. I'm just wondering what the need is.

Also, if it's a rotational issue It seems like it would be stronger to have a tongue and groove or step system and then weld that.

Just looking for some clarification.

Thanks in advance,
Nate

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Silencer Welding

I bought a Shark, you can take it apart to clean if you wish, but I think other manufactures weld them together for 2 reasons, 1 they don't want you to take it apart, and 2, some people are too fucking stupid to put it back together correctly.

 

[Stealth-X]

Re: Silencer Welding

LOL, that is probably a valid point

I like the idea of being able to disasemble them for cleaning, of course I also like the idea of making my own.

Regards,
Nate

 

[Irelander]

Re: Silencer Welding

Crazy...I clicked on this thread cause I thought it said "Silencer Wedding". I said "I gotta see that!".

I'm a bit tired...

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Silencer Welding

Why would you weld anything together? strength.

The baffles are designed to slow down the movement of air and cool the air down. So if the blast out of the muzzle is forcing the baffles away from thier original starting point it would stretch over time ... now hold all that together with just a simple ring weld on the outter can and that is the only point of force holding everything together. Weld each baffle so the baffles cannot be forced apart as the gas is traveling thru them and allow them to work and stay in place. It is a much stronger design, and you can control the airflow withing the baffles easier that way was well, you dont have "leakage" around the baffles from the blast opening them uip .00001 inches.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a Shark, you can take it apart to clean if you wish, but I think other manufactures weld them together for 2 reasons, 1 they don't want you to take it apart, and 2, some people are too fucking stupid to put it back together correctly. </div></div>

AAC welds them to make them stronger and lighter.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Silencer Welding

Welding is used for many things.

Welds can provide a thermal conduit for heat transfer, and often are considered cost reducing measures. (IE now a stamped endcap worth $6-$10 replaces a machined, threaded $25 component.

Heat transfer is a good thing to have. Military rifle silencers are generally welded in most cases.

 

[858]

Re: Silencer Welding

Welding doesn't necessarily make a silencer stronger. I shot an HVT on an M240 until you could count the baffles from the outside without any performance problems. But, as HPLLC said, you can make a silencer cheaper and lighter by using certain welding processes.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welding doesn't necessarily make a silencer stronger.
</div></div>

Yes it does. You are wrong.

 

[858]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welding doesn't necessarily make a silencer stronger.
</div></div>

Yes it does. You are wrong. </div></div>

No it doesn't.

The mere presence of welding does not make a mechanical assembly, such as a silencer, stronger. SWR may have designed a silencer that when welded together is stronger than a thread assembled silencer but that doesn't mean all silencers welded together are stronger than alternative assembly methods.

 

[Arevalosocom]

Re: Silencer Welding

No, you are wrong.

It makes them stronger.

 

[MLC]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AAC welds them to make them stronger and lighter.
</div></div>

For the layman in the group.
Do the welds, to a degree, eliminate the use of spacers in your suppressors?
Does welding allow you to use thinner baffles because they are attached along the entire circumference of the supressor?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Silencer Welding

geez......i am want to remember a fellow hide member that sent a suppressor ......about 50 yard down range because of a faulty weld on a new suppressor.......lucky he was not hurt.......

 

[Wil]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welding doesn't necessarily make a silencer stronger.
</div></div>

Yes it does. You are wrong. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arevalosocom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, you are wrong.

It makes them stronger. </div></div>


OK... Please support your arguments...

 

[Stealth-X]

Re: Silencer Welding

Uh oh, here we go again ;p

I think it's a Shark suppressor I saw an assembly video for where the baffles were just stacked and the tube put down over them. They were held in/in place by the end cap. The baffles have no where to go, so I don't see the need to weld them.

Heat transfer sounds like a valid reason. I'll have to look into that.

I'm not sure about strength. Strength seems to be the argument AAC favors in their marketing, and I was impressed by the video of the AAC Welded baffles surviving a 30 round mag of full-auto fire without the actual silencer body in place. This would argue for strength, but how "strong" do they have to be? Durable is important, but they're not going anywhere so...

If I took 5 metal buckets and stacked them upside down (stacked over each other like Dixie cups) and stood on them with my weight straight down, they would hold me. I don't see how they would hold me any better if they were welded. There mechanical configuration(?) keeps them in place and supported. Welding them seems unnecessary.

Regards,
Nate

 

[chpprguy]

Re: Silencer Welding

Welding has it's place and advantages/disadvantages....
Whether it was better or not would depend on the design and materials used...

It can significantly weaken some materials, especially if they are overheated and/or not post weld heat treated....

The heat transfer statement doesn't hold alot of water (depending on design) as the weld size/area is usually small compared to the overall size of the part, so the heat transfer region is also small....

just my $.02

I'm with Wil... support your argument..

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Silencer Welding

Ok. First I'm not talking about any manufacturer in particular. My comments pertain to construction methods.

Next, there is at least two main types of welding in so far as I've seen.

-The spot welds that companies like Surefire uses to ensure constant baffle alignment. The main reason is to keep the baffle stack aligned. While these provide added strength holding the baffles together, they don't have as much strength as Full Welding. They do have more strength than just throwing baffles and spacers in a tube.

-Full welding. Where the baffle stack is completely welded up into one solid unit. These assemblies are not only permanently aligned but are also generally sealed. Most of these units could be shot without the outer tube. These baffle cartridges are then inserted into another tube and welded to it. A tube within a tube getting strength from both tubes. To rupture one of these you would have to rupture the inner structure. Which is hard to do because it is reinforced to the outer structure.

If you have no welding you are relying on the the fit of the threads on the end cap and tube at either end to hold it all together. Only one has to fail. This is a pressure issue, and a thread quality issue.

I'm absolutely shocked someone or anyone would be willing to argue welding things together would have the same structural integrity as items just touching each other....

 

[chpprguy]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm absolutely shocked someone or anyone would be willing to argue welding things together would have the same structural integrity as items just touching each other.... </div></div>

My only point was that welding isn't always the best answer, depending on design and material...

 

[Stealth-X]

Re: Silencer Welding

My point is that there is no force trying to separate the baffles. Welding holds them together, but nothing is trying to pull them apart. They're being pushed together (forward) when shot and pressed together. There is, I suppose, extra strength preventing rupture because it's basically a two tube design. If we're really worried about the can rupturing or blowing its sides out, then we're dealing with higher pressures than I thought.

Since the cans are not sealed, I did not think that a pressure blowout was a likely occurrence with a silencer made of good material and of appropriate thickness. Granting that stronger material (than aluminum) would be used for full-auto rated silencers.

So if the answer to my question is: "The baffles are welded together as precaution against a pressure blowout and creates what is basically a double tubed design." Then so be it.

That could be a valid answer, I just wanted to know what force the welding was counter acting.

I think even without welding, there is a double tube, in effect. It's not like there huge gaps between baffles where gas is leaking through the first layer and exerting force on the outer tube.

Click the bottom link for the assembly video that started me on this line of questioning:

http://www.sharksuppressors.com/Media.aspx

It seems like a fine design to me, even without the welding.

Welding just seems extra. Maybe it's overkill, and I'm okay with overkill. I just wanted to know.

Regards,
Nate

 

[1_ar_newbie]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stealth-X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point is that there is no force trying to separate the baffles. Welding holds them together, but nothing is trying to pull them apart. They're being pushed together (forward) when shot and pressed together. There is, I suppose, extra strength preventing rupture because it's basically a two tube design. If we're really worried about the can rupturing or blowing its sides out, then we're dealing with higher pressures than I thought.

Since the cans are not sealed, I did not think that a pressure blowout was a likely occurrence with a silencer made of good material and of appropriate thickness. Granting that stronger material (than aluminum) would be used for full-auto rated silencers.

So if the answer to my question is: "The baffles are welded together as precaution against a pressure blowout and creates what is basically a double tubed design." Then so be it.

That could be a valid answer, I just wanted to know what force the welding was counter acting.

I think even without welding, there is a double tube, in effect. It's not like there huge gaps between baffles where gas is leaking through the first layer and exerting force on the outer tube.

Click the bottom link for the assembly video that started me on this line of questioning:

http://www.sharksuppressors.com/Media.aspx

It seems like a fine design to me, even without the welding.

Welding just seems extra. Maybe it's overkill, and I'm okay with overkill. I just wanted to know.

Regards,
Nate</div></div>

The problem with doing it like this is the threaded endcaps. What if you get solid endcap contact (a bad bullet or bad threads... whatever) and the endcap is loosened? What if your shooting full auto on a 10.5" gun with all that pressure the endcap could become unthreaded and next time you pull the trigger all the baffles go out the end of the silencer down range... this is not good for Military applications

There are other reasons we weld... it helps is make a lighter silencer and yes it is stronger.

 

[Wil]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...it helps is make a lighter silencer and yes it is stronger. </div></div>

How can welding make it lighter? Depending on the type of welding being utilized, aren't you ADDING material to the metal to join it?

 

[chpprguy]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...it helps is make a lighter silencer and yes it is stronger. </div></div>

How can welding make it lighter? Depending on the type of welding being utilized, aren't you ADDING material to the metal to join it?

</div></div>

I am going to guess he is eluding to being able to use thinner material, since there won't be a minimum thickness requirement to allow for threads to be cut/formed....

 

[Wil]

Re: Silencer Welding

rgr...


learning all kinds of cool stuff ....

 

[1_ar_newbie]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...it helps is make a lighter silencer and yes it is stronger. </div></div>

How can welding make it lighter? Depending on the type of welding being utilized, aren't you ADDING material to the metal to join it?

</div></div>

No, we do not add material... It's called fusion welding because the two parts are fused together... really cool stuff

 

[chpprguy]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...it helps is make a lighter silencer and yes it is stronger. </div></div>

How can welding make it lighter? Depending on the type of welding being utilized, aren't you ADDING material to the metal to join it?

</div></div>

No, we do not add material... It's called fusion welding because the two parts are fused together... really cool stuff </div></div>

piqued my curiosity....
fusion welding?
autogenous... by resistance? laser? EBW? automated GTAW?

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Silencer Welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chpprguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My only point was that welding isn't always the best answer, depending on design and material... </div></div>

No. Welding is the best answer. What is possibly better? Surely your aren't suggesting magic or gnomes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, we do not add material... It's called fusion welding because the two parts are fused together... really cool stuff </div></div>

What Mike is talking about is really really cool stuff. And as he has said, and Robert before him, it allows them(AAC) to make extremely strong and extremely light suppressors. [/quote]

 

[dave338]

Re: Silencer Welding

well our products are not welded, never and i mean never had one fail,comercial market
Only weld for military, thats so they cant play and lose bits ,
If you want a really accurate system the can has to be clean , just like a barrel
Sure some calibures cleaner than others , but several you can pour the carbon/powder sludge out after a hundred or so rounds
It depends how much blast exhaust stays inside for the longest period
Three reasons to weld
Product protection
Cost
Mil/idiot proof

If you ever get the chance to cut open an old one its normally the welds that corrode first
Along with primary baffle

 

[ACTII]

Re: Silencer Welding

How about a two piece suppressor? I have several by STW Systems, Inc and they are two piece design. Material is Grade 7 Ti and have a one piece baffle stack and a one piece tube.

 

[dave338]

Re: Silencer Welding

post some pics please sounds interesting

 

[ACTII]

Re: Silencer Welding

Here is a link to the STW web site..
http://www.stwsystems.com/