Gunsmithing Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

[adkmtnman]

what exactly is silver soldering?? I know how to solder copper pipe using 95/5, flux, and acetylene... Im sure silver soldering is different, but how much different

And why not tig welding???

confused on the whole silver soldering process....

 

[coues103]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Silver solder is a lot like soldering copper pipe the benefits are that you can silver solder at a lower temperature than tig welding and you can get solder to flow into some places that would be impossible to get the tig welded into

 

[gamma]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Call in Chad on this one. I think this is what its about.

 

[importsstillsuck]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Silver soldering is usually done with an air acetylene torch. It's a stronger joint than regular solder process is about the same just a lot more heat.

Im speaking from the HVAC industry though

 

[adkmtnman]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

OK, because I grew up in a plumbing family all my life and have a good background in plumbing. (Im an estimator for a company doing commercial plumbing on large scale work in NYC which my father owns) So I know how to run a torch. Just need to get "silver" solder and learn to prepare the surfaces like when sweating pipe...

 

[importsstillsuck]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Is it copper pipe? All we do is clean the pipe...you guys can use emery cloth since it's for water (it is for water right? Or at least NOT refrigeration?) to clean the joint then get yourself some silver brazing flux and you're good to go.

 

[adkmtnman]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

for copper pipe we use emery... then flux and starbrite "brand name solder"

but for other metals, I'm curious, that is where the whole silver or hard soldering comes into play

 

[CS223]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

I think the correct term should be "Silver Brazing". The silver solder typically used in gunsmith applications is similar to the same solder used to braze carbide teeth on saw blades & lathe tool bits. I use the regular CAD free product sold by Carbide Processors Inc. along with their Black Flux. I've also used the stuff sold by B'nells. There is a softer silver solder that is only 3% silver IIRC, normally used in radiator repair, it's too soft for gunsmith use.

TIG welding is done either by fusing the two "like metal" parts together without any filler rod by basically melting & combining the metal at the junction of the two parts or by using a filler rod at the junction to add metal to the puddle. TIG is the electric equivalent of a gas torch but with much more control of the heat and the puddle.

ETA: When silver brazing, for example a bolt handle, the solder will flow and fill the void between the handle & the bolt covering the entire surface where the two parts contact one another. TIG welding a bolt handle with will join the periphery of the edge of the handle with the bolt body. The surface area between the two will not be bonded.

 

[Geronimo]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

I've called it brazing fwiw, used air/acetylene, key is to have both copper parts cherry red, stronger than soldering.

 

[monteboy84]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

It depends what you're doing, but each has their place, it's basically a judgement call of the one doing the work. The best bolt handle attachment method I've seen used a pass of TIG weld followed by flowing silver solder into the joint.

-matt

 

[cal50]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Silver brazing or soldering is great when you have surface area to work with. Sight bases,ribs,sleeves and anything that has surface the wire can flow and grab. Solder does not take any surface finish (unless you are spraying something) so be aware if parking or bluing something with a solder line. Your also heating the entire surface to the flow temp of your solder or braze.There is a large range of solder and brazing wire flow temps and strength.

TIG is excellent for controlled heat and precise metal deposit.IMHO using TIG you will throw localized heat or a narrower band than using a torch.

 

[adkmtnman]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

SO when Silver soldering, do the pieces being soldered need to be brought down to bare metal? I know when I clean copper pipe I use emery paper and a brush with fittings.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

KISS
Soldering is soldering, welding is welding.
Soldering does not take the materials, to be joined, to their melting point.
There are many different kinds of solder, but they do the same thing.
There are many variables, depending on application.
You could solder carbide to copper if you wanted, as neither are taken to the melting point.

There are some "silver type solders" that melt lower than the old lead types.

Those used in saw blades melt much higher to take the heat.

Kinda like putting slicks on you mudder.
Not the right appication.
need more details

 

[cal50]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adkmtnman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SO when Silver soldering, do the pieces being soldered need to be brought down to bare metal? I know when I clean copper pipe I use emery paper and a brush with fittings. </div></div>


The cleaner the better and a good flux will work wonders. Basically bare base metal. Some surface finishes or plating can give you problems but its easy to solve.

 

[adkmtnman]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Thanks Fellas...

Cal, thanks for the tip. Oh, I know how good flux and solder can make a project! The solder our guys use on our jobs, is Starbright 95/5. about 20.00 a roll but no leaks and we solder from 1/2" to 4" copper

 

[felderthewelder]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

You always should thoroughly clean metal to be joined. Soldering and TIG welding need to be especially clean. In soldering since you join the metal on the surface rather than melting the base metal you need it very clean as it is like glue. If you glue dirty surfaces together it does not work. I would clean it with manual methods, brush it emery paper, then clean it with chemicals right before soldering or TIG welding.

One real nice thing about soldering and brazing is that you can join dissimilar metals in many circumstances. I hardly ever solder though. I do a lot of TIG welding and I have always found it to be sufficient when using it for gun parts. One good thing about it is you can weld really small pieces together as there is a lot of control in that process.

 

[SScott]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

Between Silver soldering a bolt handle and Tig welding I would use Tig welding. Here is some silver solder you might use. Solder has a lower menting temp than Brazing, most people use the two words as interchangably but that is not really the case.
SScott
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing/High-Silver/Safety-Silv-45.aspx

 

[ryhag1]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

+1 for Tig. Prep is everything for quality welding.

 

[gamma]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Between Silver soldering a bolt handle and Tig welding I would use Tig welding. Here is some silver solder you might use. Solder has a lower menting temp than Brazing, most people use the two words as interchangably but that is not really the case.
SScott
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing/High-Silver/Safety-Silv-45.aspx </div></div>
Is this a fairly good brand to use for this application.

 

[chpprguy]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Between Silver soldering a bolt handle and Tig welding I would use Tig welding. Here is some silver solder you might use. Solder has a lower menting temp than Brazing, most people use the two words as interchangably but that is not really the case.
SScott
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing/High-Silver/Safety-Silv-45.aspx </div></div>
Is this a fairly good brand to use for this application. </div></div>

I would be hesitant to use that alloy,
the liquidus range is over 700 C..... well into phase change in the material... I believe Rem bolts are 4140? Anyone know for sure?

My understanding is that the delineation between brazing/soldering is temperature based.... general rule of thumb is above 750* F is brazing, below is soldering.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: Silver Soldering vs. Tig welding

^^^
You're right.
That is getting up there.
One way around that would be to get a can of oil dry and a piece of scrap.
Torch the scrap red and stick it in the can to heat it up.
Idea is to get it hot.
As soon as the solder "Sets", pull the scrap and plunge the bolt in the can.
Let it cool nice and slow.

Easier would be to tap the knob with a threadlocker tap.
Make it and screw it on, done.
Not coming off.

Personally I would just use blue locktite.
Just like soldering, prep is key.
If I did it, I might have to work on it.

Sorry to stray.