Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

[LineofDeparture]

We are introducing a NEW bullet to our Tactical line. It is the 30 cal 175 gr Tactical OTM (Open Tip Match) part number 30105. These bullets are made specifically for military, law enforcement and tactical competition shooters. They are most commonly shot by these groups out of the 308 Winchester case.

We want to make you aware of this bullet not so that you buy them, but rather to keep you informed should someone ask you about them. We will not refuse to sell these to anyone who orders them, but understand that this bullet is typically used by a specific group that does not reload, but shoots mostly ready-made ammunition. We are recommending that you do not buy these bullets for resale unless you have customers among these groups who do reload their own ammunition.

This bullet was designed specifically to be loaded to a COAL (cartridge overall length) that will allow for magazine feeding. Due to the limiting nature of SAAMI Spec COAL, this bullet does not have as high a BC as our other bullets in this class. They were also designed to be stable through transonic and at subsonic velocities. This is relevant to a specific group of people, but is important to know if you are asked, as it is very important to this group.

G1 BC = .510

G7 BC = .259

For a 1 in 13? Twist or Faster

Transonic Stability Verified in 1:11.25 Twist

These bullets will be available in ammunition made by Applied Ballistics Ammo, who can be reached at www.appliedballisticsllc.com. They will begin production of this ammunition soon.

Kind Regards,

Eric Stecker
Executive Vice President
Berger Bullets


Now can anyone digest this and please relay what you think is the intent of this contradictory disclaimer?

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Can you say hype?
I have been shooting the 230 OTM in a 300WM for a few months now with outstanding results. It appears that the OTM, IMHO, is much less particular about how close it is to the lands.

 

[no1special]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

political double talk. shades of professor irwin cory.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Boy, that is an interesting way to communicate the features and benefits of a new product.

 

[cavscout1983]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

I had spikes of titillating current running through my groin at the thought of special bullets, as I read along.

And then I realized, they're talking about a 175gr OTM. Big fucking whoop, Berger. Maybe McDonald's will come out with a new product called hamburgers soon.

 

[TwoGun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Bryan Litz designed that bullet specifically to be relatively stable transitioning from supersonic to subsonic speeds. I think he wanted a bullet that was kill accurate at long range with a short barrel (suppressed). I think it's the only bullet designed for that purpose. It's also a hybrid design and is supposedly jump friendly.

That's what I get out of it.

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

I'm confused....

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

I have a bunch of these bullets, the Litz Tactical loaded from Bryan and I have to say they are the most accurate 308 bullets (Factory loaded) I have ever shot.

I havent' checked here, but just before leaving RO I compared them with new Mk316 (M118LR) ammo and they gained 3/10ths of a mil on both elevation and windage over that bullet at the same MV...

Basically my 20" AX Shoots them at 2645fps and I get some impressive results with them.

When I shot the first local "prairie dog/one shot" match here in CO with them, I shot alongside all the usual, 260s, 6mms, etc, and tied for 2nd place and was high 308 by some margin. So they are not really hype but actually very good and a marked improvement over the 175gr SMK.

They are pricey, especially loaded from Bryan, like $2 a round, but for a competition or precision work, they are hard to beat.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

To the OP - this sounds like a disclaimer/info note from Berger, not from Sinclair?

 

[no1special]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

read and reread this sinclair/berger statement, disclaimer, or not sure what. not a lawyer. seems to me that it is saying that berger has no control over who these are sold to, but are putting it on the retailer to limit use to those "authorized?" to have them. wtf does this mean? pontius pilot syndrome?

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

This is what I get out of it:

1. Hey all, we came out with this super-hootie projectile, it's the shit!
2. However this projectile is designed 98% for sniping, and 2% for highly skilled and proficient competition shooters.
3. We will sell to anyone, but you should not because these bullets are so bad-ass someone who is not a sniper or skilled/proficient competition shooter can knock the wings off a gnat at a mile.

The whole thing reminds me of those weight loss commercials on Pandora, they say it's only for people who 'need' to lose 50 pounds or more or some shit, (that is their disclaimer), but then go on to say its the best freaking breakthrough of all time and everyone is going to want it because supplies wont last blah blah blah, but then remind you that it's only for people who are seriously overweight.

A lot a freakin double talk B.S., now I am not saying they aren't accurate... I don't know, I guess the other way to say it is it's like WhackRonalds coming out with a new cheeseburger thats ONLY for skinny people, but then selling to all the regular fat asses that eat there.

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

With all of the new bullets we've been introducing lately, it's been important to keep our dealers/re-sellers informed about the unique features of the new designs so they can best answer questions for their customers. The message in the OP was intended as a communication from Berger to Sinclair (same message was sent to all other dealers) so they could communicate what this specific new 175 grain bullet is intended for. We already have two other .30 cal 175's (VLD and LRBT), so what would they (Sinclair) say when one of their customers asked them "what's with this new 175?" They can answer:
1) It wasn't designed only to maximize BC
2) It was designed to: load to mag length, and be transonic stable, and have the best BC possible under those constraints.
So if you're a competition target shooter who single loads and wants to maximize BC, the Sinclair tech line (or any other Berger dealer who got the above message) would be able to advise against this new 175 OTM. But if you're shooting tactical matches where you need mag feeding and possibly transonic stability due to low MV's from short barrels, or are primarily interested in loading SAAMI compatible ammunition for resale, then this is the bullet for you.

That's all it was, just a message to our resellers to help them help their customers. Otherwise they would have just seen it as another .30 cal 175 with no special purpose or limitations. A big challenge we have when introducing so many new bullets is communicating the intended applications, what the bullet's good at, what it's not good at, etc. They show up on dealer shelves in boxes, and as a line item with no unique description in catalogs, etc. How's an end customer to know which bullet to choose for their unique application? That's why we send out information like the above to our dealers.

It does come off kind of awkward when reading directly from the customers perspective.

-Bryan

 

[LineofDeparture]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all of the new bullets we've been introducing lately, it's been important to keep our dealers/re-sellers informed about the unique features of the new designs so they can best answer questions for their customers. The message in the OP was intended as a communication from Berger to Sinclair (same message was sent to all other dealers) so they could communicate what this specific new 175 grain bullet is intended for. We already have two other .30 cal 175's (VLD and LRBT), so what would they (Sinclair) say when one of their customers asked them "what's with this new 175?" They can answer:
1) It wasn't designed only to maximize BC
2) It was designed to: load to mag length, and be transonic stable, and have the best BC possible under those constraints.
So if you're a competition target shooter who single loads and wants to maximize BC, the Sinclair tech line (or any other Berger dealer who got the above message) would be able to advise against this new 175 OTM. But if you're shooting tactical matches where you need mag feeding and possibly transonic stability due to low MV's from short barrels, or are primarily interested in loading SAAMI compatible ammunition for resale, then this is the bullet for you.

That's all it was, just a message to our resellers to help them help their customers. Otherwise they would have just seen it as another .30 cal 175 with no special purpose or limitations. A big challenge we have when introducing so many new bullets is communicating the intended applications, what the bullet's good at, what it's not good at, etc. They show up on dealer shelves in boxes, and as a line item with no unique description in catalogs, etc. How's an end customer to know which bullet to choose for their unique application? That's why we send out information like the above to our dealers.

It does come off kind of awkward when reading directly from the customers perspective.

-Bryan</div></div> Thank you for clearing that up Bryan.
One last thing...can we get Berger to sell these in larger quantities other than 100 a box? for example the 300grn 338cal OTMs qty250 a box...

 

[inalabama]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

this bullet shoots incredibly well out of my ga precision hospitalier off a bipod and rear bag, with 44.5 grs of varget it groups bettter at 1000 yards than my ga precision 7-300 wsm shooting a 180 gr sierra matchking (the 175 otm in my hospitalier holds 1 moa out to 1k consistently as long as i do my job). i bought it to be able to load the mag length for match purposes feeding from the magazine. i have no idea why it shoots so well but it runs rings around the vld's i used to shoot. my experience only...

 

[LineofDeparture]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Well i hope they shoot lights out in my GAP-10 18"... I will soon find out.

 

[CrawDad338]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

That statement in the 1st post is so contradictory

"It was designed to: load to mag length, and be transonic stable, and have the best BC possible under those constraints"

Really cool what some folks are capable of designing these days!

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if you're shooting tactical matches where you need mag feeding and possibly transonic stability due to low MV's from short barrels then this is the bullet for you.

-Bryan </div></div>

Now this interests me ! Bryan, how do you measure the performance of a bullet as it goes transonic ? I'm curious to know if there is a measure that would demonstrate statistically how this bullet perfoms through the transonic range vs another bullet that isn't specifically designed to do so ? Thanks

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

TJ,

Transonic performance is usually an 'all or nothing' deal. If the bullet is not capable at transonic, it will catastrophically tumble. If a bullet is capable, it may see various degrees of extra/induced drag due to flying at small yaw angles but remain mostly accurate and predictable.

Atmospherics, especially altitude can play a major role in how a bullet survives transonic. A bullet that tumbles at sea level may cut right thru at 5000 feet, plus the supersonic range will be further at 5000 feet due to reduced air density. The list of bullets that are transonic stable at sea level is much shorter than the list that are transonic stable at 5000+ feet.

-Bryan

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Bryan, thanks for clearing this all up, and getting it all straightened out. For everyone.

I was afraid it was leading towards some sort of 'poli-speak double-talk' disclaimer because of all the BS that "they" are putting out there regarding bullets and the environment. We just DON'T want to go there.

Good Job, all around.

Samples?

 

[LineofDeparture]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan, thanks for clearing this all up, and getting it all straightened out. For everyone.

Samples?

</div></div>

+1

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Sorry I can't authorize samples

But you can get all the tech info here:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/175Tactical.html

-Bryan

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Bryan,
As I posted earlier, I am using the 230 OTM in my 300WM with a 1 in 10 twist. I did the OCW test and settled on 78 gr Retumbo. I have taken this load to 1000 yards with great results in poor weather conditions.
If I understand the transonic benefits, you mean the bullet is staying more stable once transonic.

 

[TwoGun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Once subsonic. The bullet doesn't tumble dropping below 1,080 fps (sea level).

That's a pretty neat trick. I'm willing to bet Mr. Litz has the Doppler track to prove it.

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan,
If I understand the transonic benefits, you mean the bullet is staying more stable once transonic.
</div></div>

That is true of the 175 OTM. However the 230 Hybrid was not designed with any transonic stability criteria, only maximizing BC. So it will have a longer (much longer) supersonic range than the 175, but once it falls below ~1340 fps, it's in danger of becoming erratic unless you're high above sea level then they might make it depending on how high you are.

Good news is the supersonic range of the 230's is so far that by the time they reach transonic speed (~1300-1500 yards at sea level depending on MV), the groups are so big that first shot engagements are a low percentage shot anyway so the transonic limitation is not really the limitation.

But the above is my take on it, an opinion. There are those who consider a 2000 yard supersonic range a 'limitation'. Personally, I wouldn't consider it a <span style="font-style: italic">practical</span> limitation since other things will limit practical application on normal sized targets at shorter range.

-Bryan

 

[TwoGun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Interesting. I think too much in absolutes. Fluid dynamics was not my favorite class. Of course, none of them were. That's why I just push paper around now. Doesn't require much thought.

 

[stranded]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

bryan, are these going to open up like the VLDs? I'm thinking hunting with a gas gun.

 

[KYS]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Brian can you explain the 155gr Fullbore ammo.... what makes it special?

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Time to have a pow wow with Victor.

 

[steelman303]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. I think too much in absolutes. Fluid dynamics was not my favorite class. Of course, none of them were. That's why I just push paper around now. Doesn't require much thought.

</div></div>

Yea, I have the paper stating an ME degree, but I pride myself in being a "glorified printer jocky".
or a "decorated salesman".

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Sinclair Disclaimer on Berger 30cal 175 OTM bullet

Sometimes I feel transonic. I move really slow and wobble.
Is wobble a scientific term?