Single vs 2 stage trigger

[TonyTheTiger]

@PrimoLuvr there are 2 stages that reset to the second stage, and there are 2 stages that reset all the way to the beginning. My Timney and ALG do this go back to the start. The advantage is that the trigger pull is always consistently a 2 stage. My TT Diamond resets to the second stage. The advantage to that is its faster for shooting pairs, with the downside that it requires trigger finger discipline to not let all the way off and start all over, which is harder to do fast than just having a single stage trigger.
The Geissele 3G trigger mentioned above is neither of these things, it's very much like a smooth DA revolver trigger with a surprise break. Sounds like you might enjoy it.

Also, fantastic analogy @hlee made me chuckle.

 

[Constructor]

I have many of the triggers in the Geissele line up. When I'm shooting with an SSA-E, for example, I'm most often sending one shot at a target and then transitioning to the next, which for me necessitates dialing the scope. As a result, I get the first stage every shot. If I'm shooting repeatedly at the same target, like you I just let the trigger back to reset and not all the way forward. My brain integrates that pretty well, and I don't miss the first stage, I just treat it like I already pulled through it.

Their national match trigger behaves exactly like the others when set up correctly, you just have control over the pull weights. I have two of those, and they are my hands-down favorites for precision shooting. My long range dedicated rifles have NM triggers. For guns that might be used for 3 gun type shooting or for defensive or hunting use, I primarily run the SSA-E or the SD-E. I do have several JP single stage triggers that came with rifles from them, and I have them in dedicate up-close guns. I've swapped them around different rifles over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that I can function just fine with any of them. For precision shooting, I just prefer the 2 stage concept so I can have lighter pull with some additional margin of safety and good reliability.

I have 2 Super 3 Gun triggers, and I can't figure out why I bought the second one. I can not wrap my head the complete lack of a wall. Just doesn't work for me (old guy, old habits, I guess). I generally have excellent trigger discipline in the sense that I trap it back and control the reset. I have to concentrate REALLY hard to make that work with the S3G, and even with that I've had a couple doubles. Frustrating since I'm working so hard to hold that bitch back. All that said, the S3G sounds very similar to the pistol trigger you described. Might be worth a try.

Agree you can't hold back/followthrough with the SD-3G. They call it a hybrid 2 stage but it sure seems like a single stage with a lot of pre-travel built in for safety/good sear engagement.

 

[hlee]

I’m just going to add here that most of the 2 stage triggers being discussed (ssa-e, sd-e, national match, etc) are geared toward precision rifle shooters.

If you ask a bolt gun guy what he is looking for in his trigger feel, he is very unlikely to say “oh, yeah, I want it to feel like a DA revolver.” He is much more likely to say “absolutely zero creep before an instantaneous break, like breaking a glass rod, or an ice sickle.”

Quite honestly “a long rolling pull with imperceptible transition to break” fairly well describes a really good mil spec single stage trigger. I have one DPMS trigger- which came in the first AR I ever bought- that feels like pushing a greased sled over ice. It has a 7-8 lb break, but it is really smooth. It very well meets the description of “all you gotta do is get it moving.” Now, I’ve got a pile of others that feel like dragging a log over 3 miles of gravel road. But, that one is really smooth.

I <think> that the “crispy” 2 stage ar triggers are an answer to the question “how do we get a trigger that feels like a bolt gun into a semi auto while retaining the safety margin of heavy(ish) pull weight and a long pull?” In its way, the first stage acts like a trigger safety. Once the shooter has made the decision to engage- or reengage-a target, the trigger safety is no longer necessary. Resetting to the second stage wall gives the shooter that clean break without the fanfare of a full trigger press.

 

[wade2big]

Any two stage I’ve ever used resets to the beginning of the first stage which is why I don’t like them on carbines. @PrimoLuvr, are you sure the SSA-E doesn’t do this. I don’t have one in front of me but I’m almost certain they do not reset to the second stage wall. Double check my man.

 

[kriller134]

My ssa-e resets to the first stage same with my Larue triggers too.

 

[BCP]

I just went and fucked with my Geissele and Larue triggers, they do fully reset however your finger will be 95% at the 2nd stage 'wall' so you avoid the first stage take up.

 

[FredHammer]

Slow shooting, holding back and letting the release creep out is what the super duper dynamic triggers do. They are good for that. The reset to get extremely fast hammer type shots require a trigger that has a very strong positive trigger reset. In order to have that, the trigger pull must be increased. I get a "dead trigger" when trying to hammer string 5-6 rounds in 2 seconds with the super galactic dynamo triggers. Just FYI.

 

[wade2big]

My ssa-e resets to the first stage same with my Larue triggers too.

I just went and fucked with my Geissele and Larue triggers, they do fully reset however your finger will be 95% at the 2nd stage 'wall' so you avoid the first stage take up.

Both of these can’t be true. Your experience doesn’t match mine or the videos I just watched @BCP.

 

[Constructor]

Both of these can’t be true. Your experience doesn’t match mine or the videos I just watched @BCP.

I think it depends how the user operates the trigger. Most when testing loads and shooting groups will let the trigger return forward all the way and they will get the full first stage. If shooting quick they only let it go until the reset and only have the wall/2nd stage.
Mid 2000s there weren't 1000 different triggers on the market it was pretty much a Bill Springfield trigger job, Geissele, the first Timneys and maybe CMC. I had a G National Match trigger then and could use if for accuracy but it could also be ran pretty fast for 3 gun.
I still use the G. NM on precision/DMR type rifles, the SSA-E can be used for an accurate single shot with follow through or manipulated quick for double taps but neither are as fast as gamer triggers. Personally I wouldn't use a competition trigger on a duty/fighting rifle but I just ordered a Triggertech single stage to try on a rifle I train with to see if it doubles or resets on the face of the sear. I should be able to put 3-4000 rounds on it the rest of this summer.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The reset to get extremely fast hammer type shots require a trigger that has a very strong positive trigger reset. In order to have that, the trigger pull must be increased.

Not necessarily. I've got two Elftmann triggers that pull 2lbs and have one of the strongest resets I've ever felt.

 

[hlee]

So, did @PrimoLuvr get his answer? Once you’ve been around a while, you find out that trigger threads almost always go the same way. Ask 10 guys and you get 20 opinions. Everyone has their favorite- the one they are currently fingering. And, they’ve got their eye on 2 or three others that they’d like to finger “but my wife won’t let me.” Kind of like (actually a lot like) women.

 

[Charmingmander]

So, did @PrimoLuvr get his answer? Once you’ve been around a while, you find out that trigger threads almost always go the same way. Ask 10 guys and you get 20 opinions. Everyone has their favorite- the one they are currently fingering. And, they’ve got their eye on 2 or three others that they’d like to finger “but my wife won’t let me.” Kind of like (actually a lot like) women.

Ain't that the truth lol

 

[Constructor]

Same with type of 2 stroke oil for motocross bikes.

 

[hlee]

Same with type of 2 stroke oil for motocross bikes.

Laughs in "gun lube thread..."

 

[PrimoLuvr]

So, did @PrimoLuvr get his answer? Once you’ve been around a while, you find out that trigger threads almost always go the same way. Ask 10 guys and you get 20 opinions. Everyone has their favorite- the one they are currently fingering. And, they’ve got their eye on 2 or three others that they’d like to finger “but my wife won’t let me.” Kind of like (actually a lot like) women.

I do appreciate all the replies that this thread has received. Did I get my answer? Unfortunately no. This particular 2 stage trigger feels like a single stage with heavier take-up (pre travel). I need to get to the range more often and sample some buddies AR triggers. In my mind a single stage with some roll is ideal for me.
My first original question was What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? I probably should have added to that question. How do you USE this type of trigger? Do you fully move through the first stage as your sight centers on the target? Then finish the 2nd stage at proper sight picture?

 

[Constructor]

I do appreciate all the replies that this thread has received. Did I get my answer? Unfortunately no. This particular 2 stage trigger feels like a single stage with heavier take-up (pre travel). I need to get to the range more often and sample some buddies AR triggers. In my mind a single stage with some roll is ideal for me.
My first original question was What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? I probably should have added to that question. How do you USE this type of trigger? Do you fully move through the first stage as your sight centers on the target? Then finish the 2nd stage at proper sight picture?

They are for accuracy from the bench, PRS or on the line if shooting highpower(originally designed as a highpower trigger). And yes use the take up(1st stage) as you are settling, after you use it a little you will know it's not going to fire. When on the wall it's the same as a single with no creep and you already have finger pressure. Don't wait until you are completely still and between heartbeats to start pulling the first stage. Pull 1st stage as you are getting the sight picture right, pause at the wall(2nd stage) then click second stage when the sight picture is perfect.
They should include instructions because most don't know how to use them, I think most people try to pull them as 1 movement through both stages.

 

[Charmingmander]

I do appreciate all the replies that this thread has received. Did I get my answer? Unfortunately no. This particular 2 stage trigger feels like a single stage with heavier take-up (pre travel). I need to get to the range more often and sample some buddies AR triggers. In my mind a single stage with some roll is ideal for me.
My first original question was What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? I probably should have added to that question. How do you USE this type of trigger? Do you fully move through the first stage as your sight centers on the target? Then finish the 2nd stage at proper sight picture?

Use case is definitely important for both the stage type and pull weight. If it's just a bench or competition gun you could go with light pulls and pick whichever type you like more.

For a serious use gun I prefer a somewhat heavier trigger like 3.5-4.5lbs split between both stages sort of like LaRue's MBT (LaRue also gives you a heavier spring if you want). Even on LaRue's trigger I've accidently double tapped before so it's usually the bare minimum weight I'm comfortable with for a fighting gun.

My newest rifle, a DDM4V7 limited SKU came with a Super Dynamic 3-Gun trigger but I haven't put enough rounds through it yet to make a decision on if it's too light for me yet.

There's lots of good choices to pick from these days. LaRue MBT, TriggerTech, big G, and Wilson Combat all make great breaking triggers. And on the budget end there are some really good triggers for the money like the Schmid 2 stage. For sure you should try out a few of them and see what you like. I find the G, LaRue and Wilson triggers (two stage) to all feel mostly the same and I'd happily use any of them and have owned all 3.

 

[Constructor]

My newest rifle, a DDM4V7 limited SKU came with a Super Dynamic 3-Gun trigger but I haven't put enough rounds through it yet to make a decision on if it's too light for me yet.

There are 2 trigger(not hammer)springs that go with those triggers a 3.5 and a 4.5lb. The gold spring is a 4.5 and the black a 3.5.

 

[warrantchief]

I use 2-stage when I want a lighter trigger on a hunting or "dmr" rifle but with a significantly larger margin for error/safety. I take up the 1st stage "slack" while I'm in my final breath towards respiratory pause and wait until squeezing the 2nd stage break. On a semi-auto I will only reset to the 2nd stage wall if I am staying on target for a second shot. Otherwise I remove my finger from the trigger.

On my carbines I prefer a single stage like the Radian that has a clean break with minimal creep but still a pretty heavy trigger pull.

Pure competition I've come to appreciate a light single stage with a little bit of roll

 

[Charmingmander]

There are 2 trigger(not hammer)springs that go with those triggers a 3.5 and a 4.5lb. The gold spring is a 4.5 and the black a 3.5.

Did not know this since I am not as used to the G triggers. I will check it when I get home. I am assuming they used the black.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

Not to drag up this old thread but thought I'd give an update. I didn't mention at all what rifle this trigger is in, it's this one:

14.5" Geissele, Compass Lake or ??

I'm running about 15 years too late but really feel the need to buy a couple ARs this year. I'm not interested in building one, definitely prefer to buy. The first one will be a 14.5" barreled 5.56. This rifle will be for defensive purposes but intend on using it out to 400 yards or so. I'll...

www.snipershide.com

During Geissele's July 4th sale I purchased a BLEM SD3G trigger to play with. This trigger IS exactly what I was looking for. Hopefully it can get shot this weekend. Meantime, I did purchase a CLE built AR10 in 308 with a heavy 20" barrel, this thing weighs at least 15 lbs complete. This gun came with a NM trigger with the Match springs installed. The NM 2 stage is perfectly fine for this application as I'm going to use it off a bench or bipod exclusively at distance.

 

[BobinNC]

I currently have two AR triggers:

A Geissele SD-E 2 stage on my DMR styled 18" SPR w/ a Wilson Combat Recon barrel, and Trijicon Credo 2-10x36mm

And a Rise Armament LE145 4.5 lb single stage on a 16" barreled, Red Dot mounted AR with about 2.5k rounds through it. No creep, just a crisp pull, the same as when I bought it three years ago.

I don't have a clue about other Rise Armament trigger offerings but this one is GTG.

Wilson Combat's TTU single stage is similar, but at a higher price point. Both have a drop safety feature.

Note: The Rise Armament LE145 requires anti-walk pins, were the Wilson Combat does not.

 

[Ntxglock]

i have used a geiselle single stage precision and ssa-e in a scoped rifle, just to see which i liked best.

the break is nearly identical btw the 2 but i get better results with the 2 stage. probably more mental, knowing what comes next after the take up.

i’m no pro though, just a guy that shoots a few thousand rounds a year busting rocks in the desert.

Me too. I recently added the SSP and the SSA-E-X. I love the E-X. I have not tried the SSP at any range yet. It does seem to have a crisp break (SSP).

The SSA-E-X, I suppose to describe it, 'glass' vs 'carrot' break. SSA-E-X=glass break. SSA-E=carrot. The weights (take up/break) seem like their about the same. I put the E-X in a 16" rifle gas AR-10 (.308) and the SSP in a 20" 6.5cm AR-10.

One of these days I'll find a place where I can shoot the 6.5cm at range to determine how well I like it. The 6.5cm is sort of useless as the 5.56/.308 meet all my needs in my AO (<600yds).

 

[tucaz]

Me too. I recently added the SSP and the SSA-E-X. I love the E-X. I have not tried the SSP at any range yet. It does seem to have a crisp break (SSP).

The SSA-E-X, I suppose to describe it, 'glass' vs 'carrot' break. SSA-E-X=glass break. SSA-E=carrot. The weights (take up/break) seem like their about the same. I put the E-X in a 16" rifle gas AR-10 (.308) and the SSP in a 20" 6.5cm AR-10.

One of these days I'll find a place where I can shoot the 6.5cm at range to determine how well I like it. The 6.5cm is sort of useless as the 5.56/.308 meet all my needs in my AO (<600yds).

i've seen people make that carrot vs glass reference to the larue 2 stage vs a geiselle.

i like the larue trigger but its not smooth enough from my scoped rifles. i'm still a big fan of the G SSP for carbines.

 

[bfoosh006]

FWIW... Here is a link to some robotic tested triggers with a Dvorak TriggerScan system.
Kind of nice to see the measured actual pull cycle , compared to what I feel.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Robotic-Testing-AR15-Triggers-Updated-5-1-2023/12-779525/

 

[PrimoLuvr]

FWIW... Here is a link to some robotic tested triggers with a Dvorak TriggerScan system.
Kind of nice to see the measured actual pull cycle , compared to what I feel.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Robotic-Testing-AR15-Triggers-Updated-5-1-2023/12-779525/

Thanks for sharing that link.