sizeing die question

[black_ump]

i have a lee full length sizer.. i feel it does a good job, I am curious to know though, i was going to get the forster ultra mic die but iam not sure if i should get just the die and use my fl sizer ( lee ) or get the mic die with forster fl sizer.

any advice ?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: sizeing die question

I like a mic die if I am using different bullets that have different seating and ogive. It makes it real nice to just "dial in" and seat with confidence. However if you have a proven load at a specific depth that may not be altered except at the throat erodes there really is no need for one.

 

[vman]

Re: sizeing die question

black_ump i recently had the same dilema.

I have RCBS FL die set with seater. I knew I wanted a Forster ultra seater just because a new toy was in order and I feel it will be a nice addition and hopefully reduce run-out.

I ended up looking at the prices on sinclairs, and thought its only an extra $30 for the package, so i went with that option.

Now I have two FL sizing dies. The beauty of that is that now If i have two rifles chambered in .308 be it mine or a friends, I now have an FL die i can set up for each rifle and leave them.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

Re: sizeing die question

The forster benchrest seater and Ultra-benchrest seater (with micrometer top) are identical on the inside, and both seat bullets equally well. (Redding copied the ultra as their Competition rifle seating die when Forster's patent ran out). The micrometer is useful if you load different bullets, or to different lengths in different rifles, etc., so you can just dial in the setting you recorded when you developed the load. Otherwise, the standard BR seater gives you the same accuracy for less $$.

The Forster standard sizing dies have a raised expander ball design. The idea is that the expander ball enters the bottom of the case neck (as the case is withdrawn from the die) while the top of the neck is still held centered in the die.

Forster dies also come with great cross-bolt type lock rings that lock securely and squarely on the die body, without marring the die threads.

Andy

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: sizeing die question

Anytime a common die's tolerances stack toward perfection it can't be improved on with a change! Keep your sizer unless you have valid reason not to.

Micrometer heads are user aids, they do nothing for the ammo.

 

[blakheaven]

Re: sizeing die question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">black_ump i recently had the same dilema.

I have RCBS FL die set with seater. I knew I wanted a Forster ultra seater just because a new toy was in order and I feel it will be a nice addition and hopefully reduce run-out.

I ended up looking at the prices on sinclairs, and thought its only an extra $30 for the package, so i went with that option.

Now I have two FL sizing dies. The beauty of that is that now If i have two rifles chambered in .308 be it mine or a friends, I now have an FL die i can set up for each rifle and leave them. </div></div> Two FL sizing dies for two different rifles? Well if you FL size a cartridge it returns it to a "standard" spec, so with either die the cartridges are coming out the same dimensions right? I am not trying to be a jerk but trying to understand. My contention is when you FL size you lose the fire formed advantage by returning the brass to "spec".

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: sizeing die question

The micrometer head on the bullet seater die is vastly more useful than the micrometer head on the sizing die.

In general, the parameter you want to adjust on the sizing die is neck diameter, not the length of the neck that gets sized. Bushing dies give you the essential neck diameter adjustibility.

 

[vman]

Re: sizeing die question

blackheaven.

Headspace in your rifle will dictate how far out your cases shoulders expand when you fire your rifle.

If im aiming to acheive minimum shoulder bump then I would set up my dies accordingly.

If i had two rifles in .308 and my dies were set up to size the one with the larger headspace of the two, then i may not be able to chamber that brass in a .308 with small tolerances. Make sense?

That is providing that both of the rifles are different enough.

If i had a Palma rifle, set up with Palma chamber dimensions, i would certainly use a different sizing die set for it.

This is my understanding anyway.

 

[black_ump]

Re: sizeing die question

thanks for all the useful advice. here is the question iam scared to ask.

setting up an FL sizer, did i do it wrong ?

a boss of mine at the machine shop once told me to take a nickel and sett it on my shell holder, put the ram all the way up and screw the die body down to touch the nickle... then run a piece of brass up and move the decaping pin down until its down just enough to knock the primer out.. case closed

i hope to god that is right i dont wanna size these things all over again

 

[vman]

Re: sizeing die question

black_ump, if you bump back your brass to the same size each and every time you will achieve good results...

HOWEVER, you may (or may not be) bump back the shoulder more than is needed or maybe even less than which will give you difficult rounds to chamber.

The easiest way to set up your dies correctly is to purchase some tools that will tell you if your doing it right.

This is what i use

- Digital Caliper
- Hornady Headspace tool set --> http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=68..._Set_w_Bushings

1) Set up your caliper with the appropriate size guage for the case you will be measuring.
2) Measure a fired case from the head to the shoulder datum line using the guage and caliper. Take note of the measurement.
3) Size the same brass case.
4) Measure the case again.
5) If you have bumped back the shoulder 0.001 Perfect. Lock the ring on the FL sizing die.
6) If you need to change the die simply turn it the required direction in the press and retry on a different fired case. Repeat the process until your FL die is at the right height in the press and then lock it down.

If you do not bump back the shoulders enough you will end up crush fitting them when you chamber the round.

If you bump it back too much you are just putting unecessary wear and work on your brass.

At the end of the day, if your only sizing your brass 2 or 3 times and then tossing them, who cares really.

BUT if your looking for the utmost precision and least wear on your brass this is the best way to do it... and if you combine that with annealing the brass from time to time your case life should be pretty good.

 

[blakheaven]

Re: sizeing die question

vman, I understand that every headspace is different even if they are the same caliber, but when you FL size it will bump the shoulders back to the same length wouldn't it? You would need a Neck sizing die to not bump the shoulder back and leave it fire formed to the chamber right? What it sounds to me that you re doing is neck sizing with a FL die which I didn't know was possible. What is it that you do different with a FL die to only neck size? The way I neck size is fire form the brass by shooting it in the weapon I will keep the brass with, then neck size so the bullet will seat leaving the distance between the head and neck alone because that is the perfect fit in the chamber thus reducing the expansion the next time the rifle is fired. Thank you for your time- Jake

 

[vman]

Re: sizeing die question

This is my understand of sizing die

- FL sizing die allows you to size the body of the case whilst running an expander ball through the neck to return neck tension to a standard that cannot be changed.

- Neck Sizing die allows you to modify the tension of the sized neck by using bushings and also how much of the neck is sized. Some might require an additional body die to get body dimensions back on track.

My understand of an FL die is that if you put your press' ram all the way up and twist your die down till it meets the ram, this will give you the smallest possible dimensions for that cases body with the shoulder bumped down all the way.

If you then screw that die so it moves upwards in the die holder you are effectively "lifting" the position of where shoulder bump occurs. So if you have a rifle that gives you shoulders that are pushed out further than the minimum, you would raise the position of your die so that when you "size" the brass you only bump back the shoulder 0.001 past the fireformed size.

 

[blakheaven]

Re: sizeing die question

Right, the FL die will return it to spec, but by lifting the die up you are basically just neck sizing, I got you know, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[vman]

Re: sizeing die question

blakheaven, just for you brother

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-UrMTyJ1_E

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[Williamb]

Re: sizeing die question

Here's what I do. I use a Redding FL die. I adjust it so that when I fully move the reloading press arm in resizing the die it just "cams" over. The the bottom of the reloading die actually presses slightly against the shell holder. Once it cams it puts the shell case back to specifications. However in doing so it pushed the shoulder way back from a fully fired formed case. Therefore I want to set the shoulder back maybe .001 to .002. The easiest way to do this is to use the Redding "competition shelldolder" set. The shell holders are sized in .002 increments from .002 to .010. . It effects how far the die can fully resize the case. I then determine by trial and error which shell holder I will use to achieve my shoulder set back.

Very easy and repeatable. If I reload for another rifle same caliber I do not adjust my die I adjust my shell holder. With good reloading notes it takes longer to write this then actually do.

If you are concerned about neck tension the you could use a Redding FL dies which includes a neck bushing. The FL resizing as described above is the same however you have another decision to make about bushing size in determining neck tension.

Good luck.

 

[blakheaven]

Re: sizeing die question

thanks vman, I have heard of this technique before but never had a use for it due to I use the same brass for the same rifle so all I have to use is the neck die. Thank you for taking your time to explain this though, I appreciate it- Jake