"Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

[Wannashootit]

I've always bedded our actions in wood and composite stocks.
We have two stocks with integral aluminum action bedding blocks- as B&C Medalist Tactical (Rem 700) and Choate Tactical (Savage).

I've read that a lot of you "skim bed" these actions, but I can't find anyting on the manufacturer's website recommending this.

I can't see how it could be detrimental, but if the action blocks are precisely machined, how is there enough "space" to get a thick enough layer of epoxy in place? My concern is that a very thin layer will just crack right off...

So the questions...
Is this recommended?
Does it hold up, or is it gonna crack off from being too thin?
Do you skim the entire aluminum block with epoxy, or just certain areas?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

i did my savage 10 in an HS and the layer of JBWeld raised the action so the port was even with the stock, raised the tang so it wasnt digging into the stock too. check the pinned bedding post for photos

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Follow this link and have fun reading.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1167022#Post1167022

Bedding any stock properly will increase accuracy and repeatability.

 

[lfagan]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I cannot comment on the Choate....

But we bed plenty of HS stocks using Devcon and I haven't seen an issue with the bedding not holding up. I use a moto-tool and a 1/8" carbide burr to rough up and dimple both the aluminum and the composite. Make sure to push the Devcon into the dimples and then lay on more Devcon.
I bed from the recoil lug back to the tang. If you are using an aftermarket recoil lug you may need to mill off the bottom of the lug so that it will not bottom out in the lug recess. Don't remove the material from the stock in order to make it fit or you will cut right through the aluminum and I would think that this could weaken the stock. I like the thicker Remington profile lugs with that type of stock.
-Len

Old Lodge Armory, LLC

 

[zinny]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

not to be that guy, but I remember reading a thread sometime ago where George from GAP said that skim bedding (of stocks with integral blocks, not regular stocks)is unnecessary and they only offer it as an option for those who needs peace of mind.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

After 400 rounds thru my rifle in a stock with the AL bedding block I took the action out and could see uneven wear patterns on the finish.

 

[Jason280]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not to be that guy, but I remember reading a thread sometime ago where George from GAP said that skim bedding (of stocks with integral blocks, not regular stocks)is unnecessary and they only offer it as an option for those who needs peace of mind.</div></div>

Interesting!

 

[Engine 22]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I have bedded a Remington VS in .22-250 that came from the factory in a H.S. Precision stock with the integral bedding block. I did see a bit of improved accuracy after doing it. I bedded from the tang to 2" up the barrel. I also used a dremel to remove some extra material to help the bedding "lock" into the stock/bedding block. Turned out great and didn't see any harm in doing it, learned a few things to boot!

 

[zinny]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

heres a thread that got pretty heated relating to this topic:
http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2635052

 

[Gray]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

If you are running a mass produced action such as a Remington, then bedding will certainly help. This is because of variations from action to action. If you are using a Surgeon or Templar or any other custom action that is precisely machined, then it would definetly mate up to a precision machined bedding block. Long story short all rifles won't shoot any worse when bedded and with the added confidence knowing you have done all that is possible to make your gun shoot accurately, you will probably be happy with the results.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Thanks for the links. Hadn't seen it discussed before, and sure don't need to raise it from the dead again.
I'm gonna go with what my gut told me in the first post and skim bed them. I don't see how it could hurt...

 

[h2447intx]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

this is my BC A3 i bedded

 

[D_TROS]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the links. Hadn't seen it discussed before, and sure don't need to raise it from the dead again.
I'm gonna go with what my gut told me in the first post and skim bed them. <span style="font-weight: bold">I don't see how it could hurt</span>... </div></div>

The point is not whether or not it will hurt, the point is it is not going to be a necessary thing to do. With a quality mounting block (like the AICS, Manners mini chassi, and the Sentinel IMB) <span style="font-weight: bold">and a</span> quality action, I would bet my last dollar you would not be able to tell the differrence w/a skim bed. I have a defiance in a AICS and a stiller in a Sentinel IMB, and the rifles will hold sub half MOA no matter how many times I disassemble to clean.

The problems happen with production actions and possibly cheaper mountingn blocks not being machined to higher tolerances. I have no experience with BC or Choate but I would venture a guess they not as quality as Manners or AICS or IMB (nor is a remmy or a savage a defiance or stiller), so a skim bed could potentially help.

So this brings you back to square one, WHY pay the premium for a mounting block if you are just going to spend the money to bed it anyways??? Seems counter intuitive, but maybe its just me.

Mounting blocks are also very nice for resale. You dont have to worry if someones bedding job is going to fit your rifle.

Regards,
_DT

 

[RobG]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I have two B&C stocks and had a HS from a Rem 700 LTR. All needed bedding due to poor action to block contact. On both the B&C stocks, there were large gaps between the lug and stock as well.

 

[Cascade Precision]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I pulled my rifle action out of the stock to clean and swap triggers the other day and noticed that I had two single lines the length of my receiver (Remington 700, duh).

The lines were just on either side of the feed port on the bottom and ran parallel to each other. So, the block was only touching these two lines (one on each side of the receiver), but it was touching the full length.

The lug recess area is fairly narrow (where the bedding block touches the lug), but so far has not been any issue.

That said, if I buy a new stock, I will have my barreled action sent to C. Dixon and have him machine the stock then bed it. SO far, the HS Precision has done fine for me.

Wally

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

float the tang on the savage is the only thing i havent seen said

 

[Mgordon]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I can prove to you that there is stress on most actions with most chassis systems. What I cant prove is how much of a difference (If any at all) it will make on the rifle's accuracy.

We recommend bedding because it makes sense to remove that stress, but we always inform customers that the rifle may shoot just fine with out bedding.

Mark

 

[BookHound]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Years ago I had an HS Precision stock bedded to see if it would help accuracy and it very much did. There was noticeable improvement. We've seen similar results in other stocks that use bedding blocks.

Mark

 

[Chiller]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zinny</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not to be that guy, but I remember reading a thread sometime ago where George from GAP said that skim bedding (of stocks with integral blocks, not regular stocks)is unnecessary and they only offer it as an option for those who needs peace of mind. </div></div>

Not all stock are created equal. Just sayin

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

"Bedding" blocks are a misnomer....Ultimately, what has to be decided is, will the system provide an acceptable level of performance? But bear in mind, "acceptable" is relative.

The issues with most bedding blocks and V block type chassis' is a serious lack of surface area and an inconsistent OD along the length of the receivers that are bolted into them (put a bit of clay into the block and then torque your receiver in). This is what creates the stresses that Mark referred to. The user has to decide if the system provides the desired performance, but frankly, the performance is personally unacceptable to me.

Any stock in my shop with an Aluminum bedding block gets completely gutted and filled. This is an inordinate amount of work and we'll no longer stock a rifle in any stock with a "bedding" block.

All "V" block type chassis' are also bedded. I've tested non-bedded versus bedded chassis' and there's a significant difference in performance. The only way to ensure consistency from one rifle to the next is to create a standard of performance and stick to it....

CNC just stopped....back to work....

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can prove to you that there is stress on most actions with most chassis systems. What I cant prove is how much of a difference (If any at all) it will make on the rifle's accuracy.

We recommend bedding because it makes sense to remove that stress, but we always inform customers that the rifle may shoot just fine with out bedding.

Mark </div></div>

Perfectly said and true.

No action is perfect, and no V block is even close to perfect.
Bedding makes it fit like a glove.... if done right.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No action is perfect, and no V block is even close to perfect.
</div></div>

how many have you measured? how exactly did you measure them to determine they aren't perfect? what is your definition of perfect?


i'll machine on a cylinder clamped into a vee block any day. i'm not scared of them. but then again, i'm also not scared to drop a cylinder shaped receiver into a vee block chassis and go win matches with it. i know, i'm weird like that.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Bedding is a glove fit to that action. Good to within the amount that the epoxy shrinks, and the thickness of the release agent.
It guarantees near perfect lug and receiver contact.

Thats closer than any machined metal to metal fit I think.
Especially with Remington actions, which is what is commonly discussed.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bedding is a glove fit to that action. Good to within the amount that the epoxy shrinks, and the thickness of the release agent.

Thats closer than any machined metal to metal fit I think. </div></div>


please explain how that is a closer fit than the physical contact between a cylinder in a vee block? if you were trying to machine a mirror image of a receiver a in a block of aluminum, i'd agree with you. that is not what is going on with a cylinder sitting in a vee block though.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Yes the V keeps the cylinder centered, but it promises nothing for the lug contact, and only offers 2 lines of contact along the V, sometimes a third line on the bottom where the screws are.

The fact that Remington receiver faces are so far off of square pretty much guarantees poor lug contact in a V, if the V is square.

Truing the action means nothing, because the face is trued to the raceway, not the OD of the action.

If you're using an aftermarket action, and your V block is square, then the fit will be pretty good.

Bedding is just better. In my opinion.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes the V keeps the cylinder centered, but it promises nothing for the lug contact, and only offers 2 lines of contact along the V, sometimes a third line on the bottom where the screws are.

The fact that Remington receiver faces are so far off of square pretty much guarantees poor lug contact in a V, if the V is square.

Truing the action means nothing, because the face is trued to the raceway, not the OD of the action.

If you're using an aftermarket action, and your V block is square, then the fit will be pretty good.

Bedding is just better. In my opinion.

</div></div>

with the receiver properly torqued into a vee block chassis, how many square inches of recoil lug contact is needed to keep the aluminum from compressing behind it?

i have never seen any contact at the bottom of the receiver in any of the vee block chassis i've dealt with. that should never happen.

 

[D_TROS]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Is it a coincidence the only ones endorsing bedding the mounting block are smiths who make more money off of it?

But thats not my point, my point is, why spend the premium for a bedding block if you are just going to bed it anyways.

Not all bedding blocks are created equal, nor are all actions created equal. Quality action/block combo is a shoe in for not requiring extra bedding.

Regards,
_DT

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

Thanks for all the opinions.
The one thing that I "think" everyone can agree on, is that IFFF the aluminum block/chassis is precisely machined for 100% stress-free contact, and does not allow movement of the receiver under recoil forces that bedding would be unnecessary.

After all, as I said in my first post, IFFF it were a precise fit, there would be no room for epoxy...that's kind of a no-brainer.

But then I suppose there's an entirely separate issue of whether the block itself is positioned perfectly in the stock so as to allow that stress-free mounting, and keep the barrel floating and properly aligned in the channel.

A lot of variables, and in theory if it's all tits, nothing more need be done.

I agree that I would expect more from a Manners or McMillan, than my Choate or B&C. But given the precision of the modern CNC's that I would expect to see in these factories, I don't see why it would be a problem to achieve near perfection with this.

I don't know what the tolerances are (not a machinist) for one of these CNC's, but I find it disturbing that even combined, the tolerances on both the receiver end, and the bedding block, could be enough that you could get any appreciable thickness of epoxy between them.

As D Tros rightly said, if that's the case, why pay for an aluminum bedding block in the first place? A traditional bedding job is as perfect as perfect can be, an exact female mirror image of the receiver...for $10 worth of epoxy...

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

You just brought up another good point...

B&C and H&S stocks often have blocks not inline with the rest of the stock. Bedding solves/corrects this.



Im not saying anyone needs to bed their AICS or their Manners mini chassis for it to be accurate. I've often stated the opposite actually.
But I'd be bedding my own rifle even if it had a V block.
Id bed every rifle if I had my way, and not because of the money. We only charge $120 to bed AICS stocks, and use Titanium Devcon which is $90 a jar along with Brownells/Acra release agent which is $35 a can. Not the cheapest materials to be using. And $120 is not a big expense when the rest of the rifle costs around $3000.

We only use the Ti Devcon on AICS's because of the fast set up time. We use normal 10110 on Fiberglass stocks and HS/BC stocks.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

know what i charge to bed an aics?

nothing because i don't do it. bedding it totally defeats the main purpose of the chassis system. i'm still waiting to hear someone say that they lost a tactical match or missed a real world shot due to the limited accuracy potential of an unbedded aics. if i truely required a rifle that shot better than 3/8", i wouldn't be using an aics in the first place.

now the op's choate and b&c stocks, i can't comment on. i haven't payed attention to them or how they are manufactured.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I think it is important to bed the v-block type stocks.

I can only offer my experience with HS precision and Sharp Shooter supply stocks.

With the HS Precision I shot it well before ever bedding it. It fit just like any other off the wall stock. There was a gap between the front of the recoil lug to the stock .100”, gap on the sides and back tang, Basically, a round part in a v-hole. The rifle shot ok but I had a problem with both a cold bore flyer and an occasional flyer. Bedding solved all this.

This is what mechanics led to this problem, I think. (Cold bore). I clean breach to muzzle. So every time I cleaned the rifle I pulled the action forward in the stock. If only a little, I unseated the recoil lug from the aluminum bedding block. Then when the first cold bore was fired it reseated the action against the block causing the flyer.

I have had really good results with Devcon (Cant speak for the TI version) with a Kiwi shoe polish as a release agent. I rough up the stock like others have mentioned above

Bottom line, well-fit bedding will allow your rifle to perform consistently!

Here’s a shot before any finish work. I also had to repair some damage to the sides (Don’t ask)

finished

 

[Brutas]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

What does it cost to skim bed the stock?

How much ammo and time is it going to take to realize that you should have skim bedded the stock to begin with?

Whenever possible, where ever possible, Eliminate variables.

 

[predatornut]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I can understand someone saying it is unnecessary, because like has been said, a gun will usually shoot just fine without bedding. What I can't understand is someone arguing AGAINST it. At the very least it does no harm and can very possibly help. If you don't want to bed your stock, fine, but I don't think anyone can say it will be detrimental to accuracy if you do.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: predatornut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can understand someone saying it is unnecessary, because like has been said, a gun will usually shoot just fine without bedding. What I can't understand is someone arguing AGAINST it. At the very least it does no harm and can very possibly help. If you don't want to bed your stock, fine, but I don't think anyone can say it will be detrimental to accuracy if you do. </div></div>

detrimental to accuracy? doubtful. detrimental to resale? most likely. totally defeating the main purpose of a vee block chassis system? absolutely.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is what mechanics led to this problem, I think. (Cold bore). I clean breach to muzzle. So every time I cleaned the rifle I pulled the action forward in the stock. If only a little, I unseated the recoil lug from the aluminum bedding block. Then when the first cold bore was fired it reseated the action against the block causing the flyer.
</div></div>

i'd throw the stock away if the barreled action was moving in it while pushing a patch through the bore. or use a proper sized patch and lay off the steroids.

 

[azimutha]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

I've picked up minor improvements by skim-bedding two H-S stocks. I look at it this way:

1) precision action in quality bedding block = no bed
2) stock I might want to sell = no bed
3) factory action and stock that is modified in other ways = bed

 

[predatornut]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: predatornut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can understand someone saying it is unnecessary, because like has been said, a gun will usually shoot just fine without bedding. What I can't understand is someone arguing AGAINST it. At the very least it does no harm and can very possibly help. If you don't want to bed your stock, fine, but I don't think anyone can say it will be detrimental to accuracy if you do. </div></div>

detrimental to accuracy? doubtful. detrimental to resale? most likely. totally defeating the main purpose of a vee block chassis system? absolutely. </div></div>




I didn't see any mention of chassis systems in the OP. Those are a completely different animal than a stock with a bedding block. The only argument against bedding that holds water IMHO is resale.

 

[300sniper]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: predatornut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't see any mention of chassis systems in the OP. Those are a completely different animal than a stock with a bedding block. The only argument against bedding that holds water IMHO is resale. </div></div>


how are they a completely different animal? they still support the receiver in a vee fashion, correct? they are still making about the same amount of contact in the same locations as a chassis system, right?

 

[Beef82]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

B&Cs don't use a vee. They use aluminium that extends from the wrist thru the forearm and is shaped to mirror the action where it mounts. It is most likely imperfect it is produced in a factory and like all factory produced items made to a tolerance not an exact specification, the action screwed to it is likely also made to a tolerance, chances of these two parts made by seperate entities working together in an acceptable manner is very good, chances of them fitting together with 100% contact extremely low if not impossible. Will this mismatch have a definite and measurable effect on accuracy? perhaps not. Enough to matter? Depends who you ask and how they utilize the rifle.
A vee by its very design induces stress, when two items of dissimilar shape are pulled together one or both must deform to attain any appreciable contact. An even contact area across the radius of an arc will distribute any forces better, be it the tension from the screws or those from firing and recoil.
Does it matter? Not likely, many rifles shoot very well just bolted down, many see no appreciable difference when bedded. If your rifle shoots poorly, you're bored, you want to add bedded by:____ to your sig line, or it'll just make you feel better, it is something to try. If you plan on selling your stock seperate from the rifle, leave it alone.

 

[Southpaw357]

Re: "Skim bedding" stocks with aluminum bedding blocks

i have a B&C stock with the aluminum block. i did not use any bedding compound. my 308 remington 5r rifle shoots .4" 5 shot groups from a bag and bipod. i deem this acceptable level of performance and therefore have chosen not to bed the stock. will help for resale.