When shooting from sling supported positions, does it matter if the sling is attached to the side of the forearm instead of the bottom?
Advanced Marksmanship Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
- Thread starter lonely_wolf
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Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
depends on the side you're attaching the sling, but no it doesn't. if you do put it on the side, then it already puts the half twist in so you don't have to do it yourself..i guess that's a perk?
depends on the side you're attaching the sling, but no it doesn't. if you do put it on the side, then it already puts the half twist in so you don't have to do it yourself..i guess that's a perk?
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When shooting from sling supported positions, does it matter if the sling is attached to the side of the forearm instead of the bottom? </div></div>
The only thing that might be different is that if you attach the sling on the right hand side (if you are shooting right handed)you don't have to give the sling the outward twist. Other than that it don't matter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When shooting from sling supported positions, does it matter if the sling is attached to the side of the forearm instead of the bottom? </div></div>
The only thing that might be different is that if you attach the sling on the right hand side (if you are shooting right handed)you don't have to give the sling the outward twist. Other than that it don't matter.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm.
Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side?
All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight.
I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm.
Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side?
All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm.
Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side?
All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight. </div></div>
That DOES seem to make sense. Why risk introducing a side force?
Jim G
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm.
Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side?
All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight. </div></div>
That DOES seem to make sense. Why risk introducing a side force?
Jim G
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When shooting from sling supported positions, does it matter if the sling is attached to the side of the forearm instead of the bottom? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand). If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed. This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm. Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side? All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight. </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That DOES seem to make sense. Why risk introducing a sidee force?Jim G </div></div>To answer your questions: 1) No, it doesn't matter; and 2) A side force can help torque the rifle into the support hand instead of away from it.
That said, whether it matters depends on to whom it matters.
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. Target rifle shooters use aids like gloves and jackets, they often run more sling tension, and they use rifles designed or modified for the positions required of the sport. Practical marksmanship requires of the sling slightly different and more generalized tasks and not the very same method of use.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When shooting from sling supported positions, does it matter if the sling is attached to the side of the forearm instead of the bottom? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand). If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed. This is why the sling location is the only modification the CMP allows on surplus military rifles in their GSM matches. If the rifle has the side mounted sling, the CMP allows you to put sling swivels on the bottom of the forearm. Ever see an Anschutz or simular target rifle with the sling on the side? All you have to do is get a Mosin and compare it with a springfield and see which one holds the rifle straight. </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That DOES seem to make sense. Why risk introducing a sidee force?Jim G </div></div>To answer your questions: 1) No, it doesn't matter; and 2) A side force can help torque the rifle into the support hand instead of away from it.
That said, whether it matters depends on to whom it matters.
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. Target rifle shooters use aids like gloves and jackets, they often run more sling tension, and they use rifles designed or modified for the positions required of the sport. Practical marksmanship requires of the sling slightly different and more generalized tasks and not the very same method of use.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
Hasty or loop sling, for service rifle I prefer a bottom loop. I shoot from the left shoulder. For match rifle I use an adjustable hand stop mounted to rail, so this of course is located on the bottom of the rifle.
Hasty or loop sling, for service rifle I prefer a bottom loop. I shoot from the left shoulder. For match rifle I use an adjustable hand stop mounted to rail, so this of course is located on the bottom of the rifle.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. </div></div>
Interesting points, Graham. I definitely fall into the practical category. At the moment I have no interest in specialized clothing. I just want to become a better shooter with a very practical accessory.
The link isn't working.
I have the option to have the sling attached bottom or side, but side is more convenient as it is also the carrying position. I'm going to watch for torque/cant.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. </div></div>
Interesting points, Graham. I definitely fall into the practical category. At the moment I have no interest in specialized clothing. I just want to become a better shooter with a very practical accessory.
The link isn't working.
I have the option to have the sling attached bottom or side, but side is more convenient as it is also the carrying position. I'm going to watch for torque/cant.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. </div></div>
Interesting points, Graham. I definitely fall into the practical category. At the moment I have no interest in specialized clothing. I just want to become a better shooter with a very practical accessory.
The link isn't working.
I have the option to have the sling attached bottom or side, but side is more convenient as it is also the carrying position. I'm going to watch for torque/cant.</div></div>
Since you said practical, are you attempting to use the carry strap as a hasty sling, or do you want to get the sort of support a loop sling can provide. The latter will require something like an M1 style cotton web sling, which BTW can be used for hasty, as well as looped support. These surplus slings can be purchased for about $10.00. M14 nylon slings, which are similar but longer can be used too; yet, they are just too long for some, even after being adjusted for proper length to give support from position, too much tail.
BTW, I like the speed of the M1 web sling over the leather 1907 type sling. Also, for learning sling usage the M1 type is less hassle. If you can recruit a qualified mentor, you can be up and running with the M1 sling in a few minutes as the mentor can help you with its adjustment while you are in position. A leather sling 1907 or match type will take several days to figure out. Even when you've got it right, it may be so uncomfortable you may not accept that it is right. No doubt it will eventually be preferred over the M1 web sling but not without a whole lot of snapping in to come to appreciate its capability and comfort.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have hit on one of the differences between 'classic' style NRA/match target sport shooting and modern practical rifle marksmanship. </div></div>
Interesting points, Graham. I definitely fall into the practical category. At the moment I have no interest in specialized clothing. I just want to become a better shooter with a very practical accessory.
The link isn't working.
I have the option to have the sling attached bottom or side, but side is more convenient as it is also the carrying position. I'm going to watch for torque/cant.</div></div>
Since you said practical, are you attempting to use the carry strap as a hasty sling, or do you want to get the sort of support a loop sling can provide. The latter will require something like an M1 style cotton web sling, which BTW can be used for hasty, as well as looped support. These surplus slings can be purchased for about $10.00. M14 nylon slings, which are similar but longer can be used too; yet, they are just too long for some, even after being adjusted for proper length to give support from position, too much tail.
BTW, I like the speed of the M1 web sling over the leather 1907 type sling. Also, for learning sling usage the M1 type is less hassle. If you can recruit a qualified mentor, you can be up and running with the M1 sling in a few minutes as the mentor can help you with its adjustment while you are in position. A leather sling 1907 or match type will take several days to figure out. Even when you've got it right, it may be so uncomfortable you may not accept that it is right. No doubt it will eventually be preferred over the M1 web sling but not without a whole lot of snapping in to come to appreciate its capability and comfort.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
</div></div>
This is the sling that has a separate cuff which effectively becomes the loop when attached to the sling, yes? It's the one Tactical makes, right?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
</div></div>
This is the sling that has a separate cuff which effectively becomes the loop when attached to the sling, yes? It's the one Tactical makes, right?
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
</div></div>
This is the sling that has a separate cuff which effectively becomes the loop when attached to the sling, yes? It's the one Tactical makes, right? </div></div>
No. It is the TAB sling, made by TAB, not the TIS, made by TIS.
OP, as one that spends a lot of time shooting with a sling, I believe the sling works "best" for position shooting when attached to the bottom of the rifle.
That said, I too have a TAB with a flush cup on the weak side for attaching the front of the sling, and for field expedient sling use, having it attached to the side does work.
The sling is a compromise versus a a real prone sling already, though I must emphasize that as a field deployable, multi-function sling, it performs very well in its intended roles.
Could I use it for "real" prone sling and coat work? Yes, as long as the coat had a strap that would hold the sling on the upper arm and not allow it to move and I took quite a bit of time adjusting the front length adjuster to be an exact length for my position and height of target - just as I would have to do with a Kurt Thune sling, a real prone sling.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. It's a TAB and I'm using the loop. The sling is always on my rifle, so I figure I should be familiar with its intended use.
</div></div>
This is the sling that has a separate cuff which effectively becomes the loop when attached to the sling, yes? It's the one Tactical makes, right? </div></div>
No. It is the TAB sling, made by TAB, not the TIS, made by TIS.
OP, as one that spends a lot of time shooting with a sling, I believe the sling works "best" for position shooting when attached to the bottom of the rifle.
That said, I too have a TAB with a flush cup on the weak side for attaching the front of the sling, and for field expedient sling use, having it attached to the side does work.
The sling is a compromise versus a a real prone sling already, though I must emphasize that as a field deployable, multi-function sling, it performs very well in its intended roles.
Could I use it for "real" prone sling and coat work? Yes, as long as the coat had a strap that would hold the sling on the upper arm and not allow it to move and I took quite a bit of time adjusting the front length adjuster to be an exact length for my position and height of target - just as I would have to do with a Kurt Thune sling, a real prone sling.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
I don't have a lot of experience with slings, but the few times that I have used one in the past showed me that they can be vERY effective in stabilizing your shooting position, and in facilitating relaxation.
I found adjusting it was a slowly acquired skill, but worth it!
I find the traditional "full" leather sling not all that hard to get into, but agree there is a lack of speed in doing so, at least at my modest level of sling experience.
Jim G
I don't have a lot of experience with slings, but the few times that I have used one in the past showed me that they can be vERY effective in stabilizing your shooting position, and in facilitating relaxation.
I found adjusting it was a slowly acquired skill, but worth it!
I find the traditional "full" leather sling not all that hard to get into, but agree there is a lack of speed in doing so, at least at my modest level of sling experience.
Jim G
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The sling is a compromise versus a a real prone sling already, though I must emphasize that as a field deployable, multi-function sling, it performs very well in its intended roles.
</div></div>
Good points. Knowing the limitations of your equipment is key. So in this case, while under the forearm is ideal, not much may be lost by going to the side.
I've been doing a lot of fry fire practice with the sling and am finally seeing the benefits of its use. I'll be using it at the range this weekend. I'll pay attention to any cant or torque induced by the left side attachment point.
Thanks everyone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The sling is a compromise versus a a real prone sling already, though I must emphasize that as a field deployable, multi-function sling, it performs very well in its intended roles.
</div></div>
Good points. Knowing the limitations of your equipment is key. So in this case, while under the forearm is ideal, not much may be lost by going to the side.
I've been doing a lot of fry fire practice with the sling and am finally seeing the benefits of its use. I'll be using it at the range this weekend. I'll pay attention to any cant or torque induced by the left side attachment point.
Thanks everyone.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
Sling shooting is a humbling experience. When it works- It works very well indeed. Otherwise, it was a bit embarrassing…
While in prone position I did not notice any canting of the rifle from having the sling attached to the left side. I tried bottom and side attachments, but found the rifle stayed comfortably supported either way. I did find that the rifle seemed to be more sensitive to my trigger pull. Hard to say if it was my positioning, attachment point, or me. Sometimes when pulling the trigger I caused the rifle to cant slightly. At 200 yrds it easily ruined my groups.
Back to dry firing…
Sling shooting is a humbling experience. When it works- It works very well indeed. Otherwise, it was a bit embarrassing…
While in prone position I did not notice any canting of the rifle from having the sling attached to the left side. I tried bottom and side attachments, but found the rifle stayed comfortably supported either way. I did find that the rifle seemed to be more sensitive to my trigger pull. Hard to say if it was my positioning, attachment point, or me. Sometimes when pulling the trigger I caused the rifle to cant slightly. At 200 yrds it easily ruined my groups.
Back to dry firing…
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
kraigWY nailed it bro. Im sure you can be consistant either way... But as one builds a position I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it... unless you cant ie a low kneeling (without roll) hurts me too much.
kraigWY nailed it bro. Im sure you can be consistant either way... But as one builds a position I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it... unless you cant ie a low kneeling (without roll) hurts me too much.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hiddenshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it...</div></div>I wouldn't advise that unless you are competing for an Olympic medal.
Sling use on an Olympic rifle and a precision tactical rifle are nowhere even close to being the same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hiddenshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it...</div></div>I wouldn't advise that unless you are competing for an Olympic medal.
Sling use on an Olympic rifle and a precision tactical rifle are nowhere even close to being the same.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: hiddenshooter
I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't advise that unless you are competing for an Olympic medal.</div></div>
Why, it works. I used the leather military sling in sniper school and it worked. I put 1 1/4 swivils on my Remington bolt gun I carried in LE and it worked.
It's faster then you think and supper accurate, you can even use it while your using a rest to make it even more stable.
I even use it on my hunting rifles, like I said, if you know how to use it, its fast and steady.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: hiddenshooter
I think it would be wise to see whats bringing home olympic medals and copy the crap out of it...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't advise that unless you are competing for an Olympic medal.</div></div>
Why, it works. I used the leather military sling in sniper school and it worked. I put 1 1/4 swivils on my Remington bolt gun I carried in LE and it worked.
It's faster then you think and supper accurate, you can even use it while your using a rest to make it even more stable.
I even use it on my hunting rifles, like I said, if you know how to use it, its fast and steady.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
Here's the thing, folks just getting into it all have heard rumors about slings. These folks don't really know much about anything, but, want to learn. Yet, learning how to sling up on one's own is difficult. This is because, initially, when the loop sling is actually adjusted properly it may feel very unnatural. This confuses the shooter, and, makes him wonder if anything about the exercise is right. But, as Kraig alluded, when the loop sling has been adjusted properly, and the shooter has become accustomed to it, the sling may well be the best go-to support in the field. As I understand it, the loop sling can provide about 65% greater support than bone alone.
My experience with the sling suggests for my applications it is more appropriate than sandbags, bipod, or bench type "rests". I perceive while using it in the prone position that my position is vise like, as well as comfortable.
I do not think a shooter who has not mastered the sling is as capable as a similarly trained marksman who understands the loop and hasty sling concept. Also, those here who only have experience with bypod, sandbags and bench rests, will have a rude awakening in any condition other than those where they are directing the conditions.
Here's the thing, folks just getting into it all have heard rumors about slings. These folks don't really know much about anything, but, want to learn. Yet, learning how to sling up on one's own is difficult. This is because, initially, when the loop sling is actually adjusted properly it may feel very unnatural. This confuses the shooter, and, makes him wonder if anything about the exercise is right. But, as Kraig alluded, when the loop sling has been adjusted properly, and the shooter has become accustomed to it, the sling may well be the best go-to support in the field. As I understand it, the loop sling can provide about 65% greater support than bone alone.
My experience with the sling suggests for my applications it is more appropriate than sandbags, bipod, or bench type "rests". I perceive while using it in the prone position that my position is vise like, as well as comfortable.
I do not think a shooter who has not mastered the sling is as capable as a similarly trained marksman who understands the loop and hasty sling concept. Also, those here who only have experience with bypod, sandbags and bench rests, will have a rude awakening in any condition other than those where they are directing the conditions.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
</div></div>
i ask the same question last week to a multiple time state lone gange champ. this is the answer i got pretty much word for word
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive it does matter. The non-shooting hand rest on the bottom of the forearm (actually the forearm sets on the hand).
If you get a good, tight position, and the sling is attached to the side of the rifle, they the sling is gonna pull it cockeyed.
</div></div>
i ask the same question last week to a multiple time state lone gange champ. this is the answer i got pretty much word for word
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">learning how to sling up on one's own is difficult. This is because, initially, when the loop sling is actually adjusted properly it may feel very unnatural. This confuses the shooter, and, makes him wonder if anything about the exercise is right.</div></div>That is true for traditional forms of target shooting. But using a sling on a tactical rifle should be both easy and fast. In general I agree that someone who has never before used a sling will find it feels somewhat 'unnatural', but that is not the goal.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when the loop sling has been adjusted properly, and the shooter has become accustomed to it, the sling may well be the best go-to support in the field.</div></div>It is the best support when it is the only support (which has its own logic to it
).<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My experience with the sling suggests for my applications it is more appropriate than sandbags, bipod, or bench type "rests". I perceive while using it in the prone position that my position is vise like, as well as comfortable.</div></div>In the formal target shooting sports, when the rules say that one must shoot prone with a sling, prone with a sling will be perceived by the shooter as more appropriate than other applications. In practical rifle shooting, failing to use a more stable rest is not required and is not the goal. Prone, slung, is not more stable than sandbags, a proper bi-pod, or a benchrest.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think a shooter who has not mastered the sling is as capable as a similarly trained marksman who understands the loop and hasty sling concept.</div></div>Agreed that a master is more capable than a beginner, and that one who doesn't know how to use a sling doesn't know how to use a sling. But I disagree that tactical rifle shooters use a 'loop and hasty sling concept'.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">those here who only have experience with bypod, sandbags and bench rests, will have a rude awakening in any condition other than those where they are directing the conditions.</div></div>In practical rifle shooting the goal is to find a position as stable as possible under the circustances. Agreed than anyone who does not practice positional shooting with a sling may have a rude awakening when that kind of shooting is suddenly required during a match, or otherwise. But the pitfalls imherent in lack of preparation are universal, so they also hold true for not being able to shoot from a bi-pod, sandbag, or improvised rest.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">learning how to sling up on one's own is difficult. This is because, initially, when the loop sling is actually adjusted properly it may feel very unnatural. This confuses the shooter, and, makes him wonder if anything about the exercise is right.</div></div>That is true for traditional forms of target shooting. But using a sling on a tactical rifle should be both easy and fast. In general I agree that someone who has never before used a sling will find it feels somewhat 'unnatural', but that is not the goal.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when the loop sling has been adjusted properly, and the shooter has become accustomed to it, the sling may well be the best go-to support in the field.</div></div>It is the best support when it is the only support (which has its own logic to it
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
Hey, I have been trying to shoot almost exlcusively using the bipod, but after that kind sling-experienced Samaritan at the range adjusted my sling for me,and now having read this thread, I am going to try at least part of my next range session using the sling instead of the bipod, and then WITH the bipod as well, and see what happens.
I think we have to be willing to try things . . .
Jim G
Hey, I have been trying to shoot almost exlcusively using the bipod, but after that kind sling-experienced Samaritan at the range adjusted my sling for me,and now having read this thread, I am going to try at least part of my next range session using the sling instead of the bipod, and then WITH the bipod as well, and see what happens.
I think we have to be willing to try things . . .
Jim G
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In<span style="font-weight: bold"> practical </span>rifle shooting the goal is to find a position as stable as possible under the circustances.</div></div>
I believe "practical" is the key to this topic. Many here tend to say position or high power shooters narrow the scope, I think it's the "tactical match shooter" who's narrowing the scope in this case.
If you are in a fixed position where you don't have to move, or the target doesn't move, then a "loaded" bipod or sand bag may work. But when you throw in "practical" then I think the sling works.
By practical I mean real life. Take hunting. Critters move, you have to shift to where you can see it. Not a big deal with a sling.
Lets say you're in LE and you are covering the bad guy with a hostage. He don't hold still, you have to keep shifting to keep him in your sights. Sling will allow that.
Lets say you are shooting an infantry trophy match (assume the rule allows you to use sand bags or bipods), one of your team mates has a malfuction so the coach has you shift to his target. Much easier to do with a sling then a loaded bipod or sandbags.
It's not that slow or uncomfortable. If it is, practice a bit just like you do in loading bipods of adjusting sandbags/rucksacks.
If its uncomfortable spend a bit of time slinging up and watching TV over your front sight.
Remember in a non match situation, no law says that if you use a sling, you can't use a rest. Only instead of the rifle, lay your slung arm on the sand bag or ruck. Or the hood/truck of a police care, or what ever. But if you don't have the luxary of a rest, you still have your sling.
Think <span style="font-weight: bold">practical</span>.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In<span style="font-weight: bold"> practical </span>rifle shooting the goal is to find a position as stable as possible under the circustances.</div></div>
I believe "practical" is the key to this topic. Many here tend to say position or high power shooters narrow the scope, I think it's the "tactical match shooter" who's narrowing the scope in this case.
If you are in a fixed position where you don't have to move, or the target doesn't move, then a "loaded" bipod or sand bag may work. But when you throw in "practical" then I think the sling works.
By practical I mean real life. Take hunting. Critters move, you have to shift to where you can see it. Not a big deal with a sling.
Lets say you're in LE and you are covering the bad guy with a hostage. He don't hold still, you have to keep shifting to keep him in your sights. Sling will allow that.
Lets say you are shooting an infantry trophy match (assume the rule allows you to use sand bags or bipods), one of your team mates has a malfuction so the coach has you shift to his target. Much easier to do with a sling then a loaded bipod or sandbags.
It's not that slow or uncomfortable. If it is, practice a bit just like you do in loading bipods of adjusting sandbags/rucksacks.
If its uncomfortable spend a bit of time slinging up and watching TV over your front sight.
Remember in a non match situation, no law says that if you use a sling, you can't use a rest. Only instead of the rifle, lay your slung arm on the sand bag or ruck. Or the hood/truck of a police care, or what ever. But if you don't have the luxary of a rest, you still have your sling.
Think <span style="font-weight: bold">practical</span>.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
One more thing about slings. It doesn't have to be a leather sling, it can be the military web sling.
I never used the web sling much since I left Vietnam. The when I went to the CMP GSM MI course, Gary Anderson stressed the web sling. Saying most new GSM shooters will have the web sling and will want to learn to use it.
So I started practicing with and teaching the web sling. That guy is fast. You can leave the sling on your arm and attach it to the front of the rifle in an instant. If set up right you have the keep on the loop end that can be hooked for carrying.
If you need to adjust, pop the keeper loose, tighten or loosen and lock the keeper, takes about a half a second.
Even if you use a leather sling, you should give the web sling a look see. The leather sling is fast, but the web sling is faster and easier to adjust if you have to move from the prone to kneeling to take your shot and you need a different lenth of the sling.
One more thing about slings. It doesn't have to be a leather sling, it can be the military web sling.
I never used the web sling much since I left Vietnam. The when I went to the CMP GSM MI course, Gary Anderson stressed the web sling. Saying most new GSM shooters will have the web sling and will want to learn to use it.
So I started practicing with and teaching the web sling. That guy is fast. You can leave the sling on your arm and attach it to the front of the rifle in an instant. If set up right you have the keep on the loop end that can be hooked for carrying.
If you need to adjust, pop the keeper loose, tighten or loosen and lock the keeper, takes about a half a second.
Even if you use a leather sling, you should give the web sling a look see. The leather sling is fast, but the web sling is faster and easier to adjust if you have to move from the prone to kneeling to take your shot and you need a different lenth of the sling.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lets say you are shooting an infantry trophy match (assume the rule allows you to use sand bags or bipods), one of your team mates has a malfuction so the coach has you shift to his target. Much easier to do with a sling then a loaded bipod or sandbags.
</div></div>
First off, the Infantry Trophy match uses a very generous E Target in the prone positions at 600 and 500 yards (40" tallx 20" wide). Second off, the center of two targets is 8 feet apart. By playing with the Pythagorean Theorem and using a 2' distance between the rear bag and the bipod, I come up with .11" as the distance the rear bag needs to move to go from the center of one NTIT target to the center of the one on either side. Worst case is the shooter on the small end has to swing over to the 8th target on the big end necessitating a rear bag movement of less than an inch. For reference, the hip to support elbow distance when shooting sling is 50% greater than that of the distance of the rear bag, so multiply the .11" per target by 1.5 to calculate hip movement in either case.
Couple that with the fact that the correct way to move from one target to another, regardless of sling or bipod, is to move your belly button while maintaining position, and your argument for a sling in this case holds absolutely no water. The rear movement behind the pivot point (elbow or bipod) is well miniscule. A skilled bag and bipod shooter could make this transition, and in fact is trained in making this transition, in a very short period of time. No need for re-loading or re-orienting the bipod to accomplish such a change. In the bag and bipod matches I shoot, we routinely make multi-axis, gross movements from target to target in very short periods of time. The NTIT fiction scenario is neither gross nor multi-axis.
Back to the bottom versus side discussion, it it worthy of note that the CMP allows in the Games match rules for the Swiss K-31 to have its sling attachment point moved from the side of the rifle to the bottom, so there are a lot of K-31 shooters (arguably THE most accurate and desirable as-issued bolt action rifle allowed to be shot in Games competition) that believe otherwise.
On the subject of the web sling, when used per the current CMP rules, it cannot be configured as a quick attach sling to the front sling swivel. When used correctly (and in compliance with the rules), the hook will be floating around on the loop that goes around the upper arm serving no function other than being present to complete the legal configuration of the sling.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lets say you are shooting an infantry trophy match (assume the rule allows you to use sand bags or bipods), one of your team mates has a malfuction so the coach has you shift to his target. Much easier to do with a sling then a loaded bipod or sandbags.
</div></div>
First off, the Infantry Trophy match uses a very generous E Target in the prone positions at 600 and 500 yards (40" tallx 20" wide). Second off, the center of two targets is 8 feet apart. By playing with the Pythagorean Theorem and using a 2' distance between the rear bag and the bipod, I come up with .11" as the distance the rear bag needs to move to go from the center of one NTIT target to the center of the one on either side. Worst case is the shooter on the small end has to swing over to the 8th target on the big end necessitating a rear bag movement of less than an inch. For reference, the hip to support elbow distance when shooting sling is 50% greater than that of the distance of the rear bag, so multiply the .11" per target by 1.5 to calculate hip movement in either case.
Couple that with the fact that the correct way to move from one target to another, regardless of sling or bipod, is to move your belly button while maintaining position, and your argument for a sling in this case holds absolutely no water. The rear movement behind the pivot point (elbow or bipod) is well miniscule. A skilled bag and bipod shooter could make this transition, and in fact is trained in making this transition, in a very short period of time. No need for re-loading or re-orienting the bipod to accomplish such a change. In the bag and bipod matches I shoot, we routinely make multi-axis, gross movements from target to target in very short periods of time. The NTIT fiction scenario is neither gross nor multi-axis.
Back to the bottom versus side discussion, it it worthy of note that the CMP allows in the Games match rules for the Swiss K-31 to have its sling attachment point moved from the side of the rifle to the bottom, so there are a lot of K-31 shooters (arguably THE most accurate and desirable as-issued bolt action rifle allowed to be shot in Games competition) that believe otherwise.
On the subject of the web sling, when used per the current CMP rules, it cannot be configured as a quick attach sling to the front sling swivel. When used correctly (and in compliance with the rules), the hook will be floating around on the loop that goes around the upper arm serving no function other than being present to complete the legal configuration of the sling.
Re: Sling Supported Shooting - Attachment Point
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can leave the sling on your arm and attach it to the front of the rifle in an instant. If set up right you have the keep on the loop end that can be hooked for carrying.</div></div>
Prehaps I should have been more clear, the above comment was dealing with practical, as in Hunting 'n such. An addition of a seperat clip on the front would alloy one to keep the sling on the arm and clip it to the rifle as needed.
In service rifle, the sling has to be attached, so the additional front clip is not needed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can leave the sling on your arm and attach it to the front of the rifle in an instant. If set up right you have the keep on the loop end that can be hooked for carrying.</div></div>
Prehaps I should have been more clear, the above comment was dealing with practical, as in Hunting 'n such. An addition of a seperat clip on the front would alloy one to keep the sling on the arm and clip it to the rifle as needed.
In service rifle, the sling has to be attached, so the additional front clip is not needed.
