Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

JelloStorm

JelloStorm

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 23, 2010
1,409
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Northeast Pennsylvania
#1
Hey guys,

Hoping someone can tell me what slings are used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan. I have a lot of crap on my M4, mainly a Surefire light on the side of the free float rail I have so I can't use one that wraps around my handguards. And I'm not big on the ones that go up the side of the rifle.

Example of this:

m-16a2_cst_sling_1_medium.jpg


Plus it looks like it would make releasing the bolt a bit harder.

Are we issuing 1-point tactical slings to our troops? I would love a 3-point sling for regular rifle carry (shoulder) or hanging down in front of my chest.

I've been looking at Spectre Gear slings, but if someone can recommend a different solution I'm all ears.
 
#6
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Majority I have seen are VTAC like above... you get a sprinkling of a lot of others, but most who do it right use the VTAC </div></div>
I think Larue's slings are made by VTAC right?
 
#7
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

That VTAC looks like everything I want in a sling.

However, all of my AR15s don't have the side sling attachment near the front iron, only on the bottom.

Would that be a problem with the VTAC?
 
#9
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

For the most part the RFI sling for deploying units has been Specops Mamba or even worse, some airsoft version there of. Both are similar in design & use as David Caradine's final knot tying adventure. Matter of fact he was probably using
a Mamba sling.

Unit & individual purchase slings are a different story & some are actually good. Mostly the individual purchased items.
Unless you are a dedicated door kicker who crawls on the bird, flies off the compound, kicks his door, high fives his bros, & heads back for cocktails & debriefing then and adjustable 2 point is the way to go. There shouldn't be a sling outside of the Scout & Sniper platoons of big Army & the Corp that use anything other than an adjustable 2 point sling IMO.

The Vtac sling was my go to for a number of years.
I used it on everything from an M4 to an M107. Highly adaptable & reliable even with a fair amount of load weight on it.
I never really found an issue with the tail as some claim they have. The only complaint I had is that I bent the metal glide on a couple of them & it bound up the sling until it was flattened out with a hammer. One cracked after repeatedly being shut in the door of an 1114.

The BFC VCAS is another excellent option with similar function. When I got my original sample on my last deployment I was disappointed in it because it wasn't long enough for me to use in full kit & still have enough travel for functional adjustment. Only a year later do I find out that the stick man who sent it to me had chopped it to fit his small frame & plate carrier vs my LG IBA & body.
I have no problem using any of the metal hardware VCAS slings in any environment. I use some of the acetal hardware ones on guns at home but I'd be careful about taking them to work. I don't know if it'd work out as well trying to hammer those plastic glides back together.

The Magpul MS2 is another to consider & probably a better option FOR SOME.
It is another unit that is adjustable on the fly in 2 point configuration. It also has the ability to convert to single point on the fly.
This is useful for me & those going in & out of buildings regularly as well as standard mounted & dismounted patrol. It's the only option I have that lets me accomplish all those details, each above the level of mediocrity, without changing any gear.

Setting aside the popular complaint of it being hard to adjust for length that is usually IME user error, The big downside to the MS2 is that the hardware was specced for a select few instead of the majority of those who would use it.

A 400+# break away is fine for some bearded dudes who may find themselves dangling from a bird hanging by only their weapon sling but for 99% of the rest of us it's something we have to watch with caution should we hang up trying to get out of any confined or burning space with urgency.
Minus the original VTAC all the other slings have break away points under 200#. If the original VTAC is used with QD swivels they take care of that consideration.

Setting up a sling is relatively expensive & it's convenient for Uncle Sugar to forget to pay for it when a black parade strap is $3.
None of these slings work near their potential unless you set your carbine up to accept them.
This is easiest done with front & rear QD swivel adapters for the most part. Issue guns are really limited on what can be used but GWOT has provided us with some pretty good options over the years. The good part is that they can be bolted & unbolted onto POW's or newly assigned weapons etc.

Don't expect miracles & super model massages by running the sling through the slot on your M4 stock tube & connecting the other end to your side sling swivel. You'll just be disappointed in it's function & make a bunch of people face palm themselves when you post about xyz sling being useless. Trust me, I've been pissed at inanimate objects & made more than a dude or two face palm themselves. I know what I'm talking about here.;)

Mounting the rear sling point directly behind the receiver & mounting the front sling point as close to the delta ring as possible maximizes the users maneuver options & how easy it is to use your tools. If you do this then you'll do fine with pretty much any of the viable slings on the market.

Happy Thanksgiving.
 
#10
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

We are issued the VTAC on our DEA carbines but ours don't have the velcro wrap, nice upgrade. I have used the BLackhawk sling it's good but a little complicated especially compared to the VTAC. The VTAC is great for us as we are in and out of vehicles, buildings and other urban situations.

Good luck in the box, keep safe
 
#12
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

3 point slings suck.

Stick with a 2 point, I have the VCAS 200 on my DDm4 and it is everything I need it to be and more. Otherwise, I'd just go with a standard nylon issue sling as the VCAS only has padding and the pull-tab in its favor.

With the offerings for rail mountable QD attachments, the world really is your oyster.

SpecOps Mambas suck. Had one my first deployment and it was just a pain. 2nd deployment I just used a regular old nylon sling like this:
m16-silent-slingbig.jpg


Properly set up, it will do what it is meant to do- retain the weapon. Anything outside of that requirement is not useful for the average joe on the ground. Taking time to properly sling up is a specialized focus. Stay away from 3 points.
 
#14
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dzhitshard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Anything outside of that requirement is not useful for the average joe on the ground."
Wow, that's probably the most vile piece of disinformation I think I've ever read on this site.</div></div>

what then, would you want the average guy to use his sling for? Sling in all snipery like? Please, there is rarely enough time or reason for the average dude on the ground to have any reason for a sling but to retain his weapon. The Army, on average, gets no training on use of a sling outside of that.

If it is so vile and incorrect, list your reasons along with examples that are pertinent to the average dude on the ground.
 
#15
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

Do yourself a favor and look into the Emdom gunslinger slings. They adjust similar to a VTAC or Vickers/blue force but have a wider band and are less bulky. I purchased mine from SKD tactical.

Everyone should have a sling on their carbine.
 
#16
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

On my M4 I use a VTAC, unpadded. Padded for my saw.
When working in and around tight spaces where it is unfeasible for the rifle to be slung, use rubber bands to attach the excess sling to the butt stock. This will keep your weapon from catching on the hundred things that will snag your sling at the most inopportune time.
For guns to long to be slung in an assualt fashion I use a Tactical Intervention sling. To climb or move through enclosed spaces it will probably be slung around my back or secured somehow and a secondary weapon employed. I like the arm cuff. It can be velcroed around a fence post, rail, small tree, etc and when the rifle is clipped in all you have to do is support your firing elbow and you have a solid, stable, durable alternate position.
 
#17
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

The new magpul is a combination single point and double point.I have messed with it a little but not used it in a match.It is easly convertable on the move. just another option to check out.
 
#18
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

VTAC (unpadded) is my sling of choice for carbines. It's simple and effective as a combat sling. Three points get too technical and single points are great if the only thing you're going to do is CQB-very unrealistic. I've run it on my M4, M249 SAW, and others. The cinch capability lets you tighten the weapon up to accomplish tasks that require two hands such as buddy aid, climbing, EPW search, etc.

If you're deploying with it, buy two. DZ was right in his comment that the M1114 doors will crush the metal buckle.
 
#20
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit.
 
#22
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>
If you think a two point is only to go on your back then your comment is total shit.
 
#23
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

I am not in Iraq or Afghanistan and my mission is a little different than those who are.

I will say that if your weapon is going to spend any time slung (other than on the range) stay away from a single point. They are great for kicking doors. That is the only reason I have kept mine on my M4 as long as I have (Specter Gear MOUT). They are easy to don/doff, provide a quick release mechanism if you get hung up and allow fast transitions from left to right shoulder. They make moving through a building fluid (corners exist on both sides you know). When you are on the range they make grounding the rifle simple.

That ends their utility.

I can't tell you how many times I have been slapped in the balls by my rifle or had it pendulum into something. If I didn't wear knee pads I would need a new set of kneecaps. Lets not even get into what happens when a hot can swings were it don't belong.

If you don't NEED a single point for it's specific purpose, then get a two point that can be quickly adjusted.

I have not bought a VCAS yet because I am trying to invent a better mousetrap.

Three point slings suck hard. That's really all there is to it.
 
#24
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>

Mac, don't forget...some of us are short guys and like to save our knee caps.
smile.gif


Single points offer much less control when hands are off the weapon. For people like BigJoe, that are bigger and have access to many different types- I will not question why he chooses to use one and I trust his judgement for his application and needs.

For the OP: As you can tell, opinions abound.

Here is a multi-page article of each type with good info on all of them:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/tactical-slings/
 
#25
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

FWIW:

First, I am old, never been there. But I write wills for a lotta guys.

Every Sandbox vet I have spoken to tells me a different story and a different mission.

Patrolling old cities on foot gets one solution.

Convoy duty uses another solution.

Blow Up duty (Engineers) use another solution.

Two guys have outfitted themselves and their units with "field expedient" slings (nylon straps and buckles cut from tarps).

It reminds me of the WWII vets I used to write wills for. Some guys in Africa, Some in Europe, some in the Pacific.

The duty was so different, that what worked in one place, was a burden in the other.

Nevertheless, Lowlight says VTAC, so I would just take his advice.

BMT
 
#26
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

"When working in and around tight spaces where it is unfeasible for the rifle to be slung, use rubber bands to attach the excess sling to the butt stock. This will keep your weapon from catching on the hundred things that will snag your sling at the most inopportune time. "

Yes sir. That's a gem.
My slight mod is that I don't use the rubber bands any more. I secure a CAT to my butt stock with a 10" shock cord loop. Figure 8 it to secure the TQ. When needed I stuff the sling webbing up in there to manage the slack & prevent grabbers.


cs1983
That link isn't a bad start point. I know, like, & have shot with Zack but am cautious & find myself leery of taking some of his stuff at face value when it comes to gunfighting gear etc. In this case I know he consulted with Jeff & the information may be dated but it was pretty accurate for the time. (except, IMO, missing that tac slings of several designs have been around for 100+ years;))
Here's another mini article from the same time frame that also may be useful.
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine

FWIW, I'd advise any against looking at pictures of Lamb, Vickers etc & deciding to parrot them until you understand why they do things in xyz manner. Example, (LAV from pics in the link I posted) is cross dominant & shoots his long gun opposite side of his pistol so a fella may not achieve maximum efficiency following his set up.

For your quote:
"what then, would you want the average guy to use his sling for? Sling in all snipery like? Please, there is rarely enough time or reason for the average dude on the ground to have any reason for a sling but to retain his weapon. The Army, on average, gets no training on use of a sling outside of that"

Don't take this personally but with 2 deployments & still holding this opinion: you yourself are part of the "Army" problem. The answers are out there. You can fix this & make a difference down the line.
Wearing the flag on your right arm & walking patrol doesn't make you a gunfighter. It makes you a great American who deserves to stand proud back home & enjoy the fruits of our nation.
There's some good info out there but the internet can't make you a gunfighter. Solid mentors & instructors can go a long way to taking someone there though if that's the path that they would want to walk.

Good luck
 
#27
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>

I've yet to find a quick way to secure a single point sling. It is always flopping around and in the way. It is difficult to move quickly without controlling it with at least one hand. There are times when your m4 may need to be out of the way, like running to the breach with a charge that requires 2 hands, climbing a wall or building, moving a casualty or anything else that really requires 2 hands.
Taking a knee with a single point and your hands full pretty much puts your muzzle in the dirt, snow or mud. Or worse in a casualties face. An uncontrolled hot barrel especially if you have been shooting suppressed can be a hazard.
I believe single point slings have their place, but to say that your weapon will never be on your back is a pretty narrow minded view of combat and situations that may arise.
 
#28
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dzhitshard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"When working in and around tight spaces where it is unfeasible for the rifle to be slung, use rubber bands to attach the excess sling to the butt stock. This will keep your weapon from catching on the hundred things that will snag your sling at the most inopportune time. "

Yes sir. That's a gem.
My slight mod is that I don't use the rubber bands any more. I secure a CAT to my butt stock with a 10" shock cord loop. Figure 8 it to secure the TQ. When needed I stuff the sling webbing up in there to manage the slack & prevent grabbers.


cs1983
That link isn't a bad start point. I know, like, & have shot with Zack but am cautious & find myself leery of taking some of his stuff at face value when it comes to gunfighting gear etc. In this case I know he consulted with Jeff & the information may be dated but it was pretty accurate for the time. (except, IMO, missing that tac slings of several designs have been around for 100+ years;))
Here's another mini article from the same time frame that also may be useful.
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine

FWIW, I'd advise any against looking at pictures of Lamb, Vickers etc & deciding to parrot them until you understand why they do things in xyz manner. Example, (LAV from pics in the link I posted) is cross dominant & shoots his long gun opposite side of his pistol so a fella may not achieve maximum efficiency following his set up.

For your quote:
"what then, would you want the average guy to use his sling for? Sling in all snipery like? Please, there is rarely enough time or reason for the average dude on the ground to have any reason for a sling but to retain his weapon. The Army, on average, gets no training on use of a sling outside of that"

Don't take this personally but with 2 deployments & still holding this opinion: you yourself are part of the "Army" problem. The answers are out there. You can fix this & make a difference down the line.
Wearing the flag on your right arm & walking patrol doesn't make you a gunfighter. It makes you a great American who deserves to stand proud back home & enjoy the fruits of our nation.
There's some good info out there but the internet can't make you a gunfighter. Solid mentors & instructors can go a long way to taking someone there though if that's the path that they would want to walk.

Good luck
</div></div>

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me mentioning my deployments as anything other than my own experience with two types of slings. I certainly do not claim any authority on anything other that what I've personally experienced.

If I understand what you are getting at, you are saying that because I recognize the initial training and sustainment of the skills associated with sling use outside of weapon retention is lacking, I am part of some problem? Hold your horses there, guy. If anyone in my prior units got fed up with and tried to lobby addressing Big Army BRM and advanced follow on training, it was me.

I fully recognize the system for the Big Army is rather broken and when I was still in, I tried to pass along what little I knew regarding implementation of proper techniques and alternatives to the way things are taught across the board.

You can wax poetically all you want and skirt the issue, but, the core issue is- the average guy in the fight is lucky to even get 1k rounds through his rifle in a year CONUS. 18 to zero, 40 to qual ( if he even does that first time go) and do that 2X a year. Various ranges here and there throughout, but, not much. 3-gun civilian competitors sling more lead in a weekend than the average guy does in a year.

You're suggesting that somehow Big Army should take people and make them all highly proficient. Well, until the Army gets its head out of its ass and starts looking over to the USMC on marksmanship sustainment training, it ain't gonna happen.

The OP was simply asking what slings are in use in Iraq and A'stan. The simple answer to that is- there ain't a simple answer. As you and others have pointed out, there is simply no go to hardcore definitive answer.

Not quite sure what you're trying to prove with the little gunfighter stab. Poor form, poor taste. I expect better of anyone wishing to engage in meaningful conversation. Passive-Aggressive ad-hominem ain't cutting the mustard. Please consider where I am coming from on this. Frankly, you have no friggin clue who I am, where I've been, what I've done, or anything else outside of what I choose to put on this forum. I'm not some high speed snake eater but, still... PID bro. I did not take it "there", and I would expect someone wishing to be viewed as a professional to do the same.

I asked you a simple thing: list what the average guy on the ground needs and can use within the scope of his training ( on average) and list examples as such. You have failed to do this. Instead you wrote some long soliloquy culminating in some completely off topic paragraph about how it's my turn to sit at the VFW. WTF? There is no reason to obfuscate the issue in this thread.

I posted the link to Zak's site not as an insinuation that he is the end-all authority, but to give the OP some more information to go off of and continue his search.

I'm still waiting on a simple list with examples that pertain to the average guy on the ground. I could care less what SF, Rangers, SEALs, or even 67th BFSB do in the context of the OP's question and how it relates to what I specifically said. Those types are not the average guy on the ground.

You are certainly welcome to get with me through PM if you wish to dick measure. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll win. However, still waiting on the quantification of how I have supplied disinformation as it relates to the <span style="font-weight: bold">average</span> guy on the ground.
 
#29
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

Buddy the elf whispers [he's an angry elf]
Easy big shooter. You're taking it too personally.

The Gunfighter jab you reference isn't meant as an attack on you anymore than it's an attack on myself. I don't sell myself as one but I am a student. If you're combat arms & you're not at least a dedicated student of the art then you are part of the problem with big green's cultural norm of support complacency. I have no idea how you're taking my fine American compliment as an insult & honestly I'm not interested in digging to the root of it.

It sounds like we're pretty similar individuals.
your comment:
"If anyone in my prior units got fed up with and tried to lobby addressing Big Army BRM and advanced follow on training, it was me."


You're right, I don't know you but I do believe that I acquired reasonable PID with this quote of yours:
". . . retain the weapon. Anything outside of that requirement is not useful for the average joe on the ground"

An internet post can't fix the defeated tone of what is wrong with your comment so why should I use my time pecking out a response highlighting minutia of things like maneuvering an obstacle, nonconventional shooting positions, moving a casualty, & the unlikely secondary transition etc ?


So what if big green gives you less than 1K rounds a year & a 3 gunner burns that in a weekend? I can't see how that's germane to the subject or even supportive of your position. Then again, it's the internet so I may have misread some part of it like you obviously have mine.

No one gives the majority of those 3 gunners their ammo out side of the very few factory shooters.

The true answer to that life puzzle probably lies closer to those dedicated 3gun cats being members of a competitive gun culture who strive to improve their techniques & abilities. The majority of SM's, even the combat arms guys, are like 3gunners who make it to the monthly match then run the safety lane & a shooting stage but do little to train for it. Just competing & hanging out with the guys is good enough for them. Fine, to each man his pursuits but don't try to sell it off as good enough for the whole.

To be crystal clear & simple for you: Saying the parade sling was good enough for the average Joe is the disinformation I was talking about. It is vile to me if taken at face value that you know there is better options but you think they are only for special people.

I can't think of a more competitive and meaningful event than a stage on the 2way range.
Once we understand that there is truly a better way to do business isn't it our responsibility to take it to those who don't yet know?

I'm not here to measure dicks or MF'r someone over the internet.

I normally just read here without logging in. I decided to use the PX & felt bad for not contributing for a while so I thought I would log in & share some opinion on a couple subjects.
If you care to take it further that's on you. I don't have a problem just reading topics for another few years without logging in. It'll be a one sided argument from here on out if it's still personal for you.
 
#30
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

Not personal at all, apologies for mistaking your intent. Sometimes (often unfortunately), the tone someone is going for is not realized. This can lead to misunderstanding.

By all means do not discontinue contributing to this site because of a simple ( I believe) misunderstanding on both our parts.

Back to the issue at hand, I stand by my statement until you can explain otherwise. If you would just articulate your position, I am 100% willing to fully recant my statement. Otherwise, why are we really discussing this?
smile.gif


I have seen no use of a sling for the average guy (non-specialized combat and support MOS's) outside of weapon retention. Hasty sling? eh. As I thought I made clear in the initial post, most other use is specialized, untaught except to the people who would most likely use it, and is basically just something that confuses most people in boots that don't see many miles. I would love for the Army to rectify this along with actually implementing the really good info in FM 3-22.9 (has it changed yet?) regarding proper zero, verifying downrange data with KD paper, wind, etc. It's just not taught. It takes geeks like us who read FM's at the weekend and try to put it into practice between the bullshit.

There is certainly a needed application for something OTHER than weapon retention. I've seen pictures of regular grunt Marines in A-stan slung up, seated, and doing God's work- I assume at a distance that most Soldiers would not even think of being able to engage at. Haven't seen that from the majority of Big Army. In the context of this thread though, we have taken this way beyond the scope of the OP.

I look forward to more interaction. I believe we could both learn from each other, even if it is just in the realm of non-vocal communication.

Stay safe.
 
#31
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

I think the idea that troops should just get a sling to do no more than carry is selling them short. Back to WW1 we gave every troop a weapon and a good shooting sling. We trained them to use that system to good effect. Teaching a man to sling up and hit targets at 600 yards with M4 can do nothing but good.

I have carried a M4, in sand box, with sling that could be used for shooting as well as multiple position carry ability ( Two point patrol, sniper type carry and single point type carry, all with Quick Release). The troops that saw it pretty much all wanted what I had and I have sent more than a few to guys who use them every day. I am supposed to put a few in Big Armies hands at Shot, but JJ McQuade will have one next week to see what he thinks. Have never really marketed M4 slings because hard to compete with the products made in China for price when TIS is USA made by US Citizens, but hopefully the right folks will like it and see value.
 
#32
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

The only use for a single point I see is really Mk18 sized guns unsuppressed, even then I am not a big fan, I tried them and found while they worked for a bunch of things, they sadly failed in other requirements (casualty carry, prisoner control) and down right unsafe for fast roping or rappeling.

My biggest aggrivation comes from the people who insist in roping their long gun into their load bearing gear, without any understand of how to employ their gun from 'non standard' shooting positions, alternate shoulder or other controted positions and your screwed.

While I like a lot of the Magpul gear the sling just does not do it for me, its a little thin and I dont see it as easy to go from 1 to 2 pt - at least not as easy as a push button QD stud.

My preference for slings is the VCAS for most platforms and Mike's Quick Cuff sling for sniper guns.

That said I am very interested in Mike's new sling and looking forward to seeing it.
 
#33
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

Kevin, I used single point for vehicle ops only. The vehicle gets hit and you have to use both hands to exfile you drag weapon with you. Other than that I prefer two point with shooting option.

I have spent this time home with busted up back designing many new slings and will show you them all at Shot.
 
#34
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

"You can wax poetically all you want and skirt the issue, but, the core issue is- the average guy in the fight is lucky to even get 1k rounds through his rifle in a year CONUS. 18 to zero, 40 to qual ( if he even does that first time go) and do that 2X a year. Various ranges here and there throughout, but, not much. 3-gun civilian competitors sling more lead in a weekend than the average guy does in a year."

CS1983,
First, Thank you for your service. I want to comment, respectfully, on your statement above. I am a LEO at an agency that the "average" guy get 5 hours of instruction a year and maybe 250-400 rounds of pistol. It is your choice that, "3-gun civilian competitors sling more", limits your range time and exposure to forward thinking training. I have a wife and two kids and I scrimp and save to attend at least one 3-day firearms class per year. Most years it has been 2 classes. I'm just a cop and in 18 years only REALLY needed a gun once, but I would not be here now if I did not have it or was not better than the other guy that night. The PERSONAL investment paid off, my Wife will never doubt a training class.

The 3-gun civilians pay there own way, unless they are sponsored and that is few and far between. Make a decision take a class with Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzalez, Spartan Tactical, or any of the highly regarded groups out there. I see your in CA, look up Scott Reitz ITTS.

I'm sorry if I went on a rant, but it our duty to train to protect our brothers. The agencies only give the minimum.
Jack
 
#35
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

"My slight mod is that I don't use the rubber bands any more. I secure a CAT to my butt stock with a 10" shock cord loop. Figure 8 it to secure the TQ. When needed I stuff the sling webbing up in there to manage the slack & prevent grabbers."

DZ,
For the imagination challenged like me can you snap a pic of this set up? It sounds simple and it may solve carrying a tourniquet and getting the sling wrapped up on something while trying to get out of the patrol car in one foul swoop.
Jack
 
#36
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

+1 for the VTAC here. I have a VTAC Padded sling that came with my Noveske VTAC Upper and I really like it! I'd say from experience that the 2 point is the way to go IF you really have to carry your gun alot, move any distance, and possible do something other than HOLD YOUR GUN during that time. You never know when you might need to do something that requires the use of your hands, and this is the contention for the 2 point sling all the way around. I keep one on any of my General Purpose Rifles which may be used for ?!!? in the future. I only have one weapon still with a single point sling and it's just because I have not bought an extra VTAC for it yet...but its not my GO TO GUN either!
 
#37
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

jackinfl- Excellent point. However, keep in mind that I comparing LE and Mil is a little apples and oranges. Mainly because a large segment of the Mil guys live in the barracks, are overseas(p.i.t.a. to own a weapon in Korea/Germany/etc), have other responsibilities and no opportunity to augment income, etc.

The mil guys that can and do save their pennies to get more weapons training certainly benefit from it. No one will disagree on that.

The issue is not what an atypical individual is willing to do to better himself, it is what the average guy is doing across the board. The average owns no weapons, never shoots on the weekend unless it is training, couldn't afford a personal weapon if he wanted, or has no interest in spending time outside of work while focusing on "work". For the usual joe, owning a weapon when you live on post, in the barracks, can be a real pain. Thus, any sort of use or specialization with a sling outside of weapon retention is falling on deaf ears. It's important to remember this site draws people wishing to better themselves in some way or another.

Randomly select a dude in ACUs out of a non-specialized unit, ask what their sling is for; they'll say, "to hold my weapon". Why? Because they've been trained that way.

I agree there are more uses than that, but it is not taught, and thus- the average need and use of a sling in Iraq/Astan is just that, weapon retention. When the training changes across the board, this will be a meaningful discussion. Until then- I'm getting dizzy from the circles.

Regards.
 
#38
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

jackinfl said:
"You can wax poetically all you want and skirt the issue, but, the core issue is- the average guy in the fight is lucky to even get 1k rounds through his rifle in a year CONUS. 18 to zero, 40 to qual ( if he even does that first time go) and do that 2X a year. Various ranges here and there throughout, but, not much. 3-gun civilian competitors sling more lead in a weekend than the average guy does in a year."

CS1983,
First, Thank you for your service. I want to comment, respectfully, on your statement above. I am a LEO at an agency that the "average" guy get 5 hours of instruction a year and maybe 250-400 rounds of pistol. It is your choice that, "3-gun civilian competitors sling more", limits your range time and exposure to forward thinking training. I have a wife and two kids and I scrimp and save to attend at least one 3-day firearms class per year. Most years it has been 2 classes. I'm just a cop and in 18 years only REALLY needed a gun once, but I would not be here now if I did not have it or was not better than the other guy that night. The PERSONAL investment paid off, my Wife will never doubt a training class.

The 3-gun civilians pay there own way, unless they are sponsored and that is few and far between. Make a decision take a class with Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzalez, Spartan Tactical, or any of the highly regarded groups out there. I see your in CA, look up Scott Reitz ITTS.

I'm sorry if I went on a rant, but it our duty to train to protect our brothers. The agencies only give the minimum.
Jack [/quote

Not shooting more than a few times a year has little to do with your ability to employ a sling. As long as you can bring your rifle to bear and accurately engage targets then that part is vetted. Most of your sling work can be accomplished without live rounds. You don't need live ammo to get into and out of a vehicle, climb, employ explosives, carry casualties, or any of the other thousands of tasks you may encounter overseas. If the only time you draw your weapon, and try your sling, is to qualify than the only person you have to blame is yourself, or maybe the next higher NCO in your chain of command for not making you train. Battle Drills and skill level one tasks can continually be improved without going live. If you can go live all the time by all means do so, but if you can't it's not an excuse to sit around play X BOX or the equivelant and not train.
Click to expand...
 
#39
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

The average Joe in Afghanistan is using whatever the armorer hands him to use on his rifle. In garrison...when not deployed...he does the same and takes it off each time he turns the weapon back into the arms room. Most of the time that's a cheap ass double buckle sling like the ones that come with most AR's...or a junk 3-point sling that some S4 ordered a bunch of because they were really cheap. Most soldiers do not get any training on employing a rifle out of a vehicle. They don't care about adjustable or any other features. It's simply used to carry a rifle and nothing more. I've never watched a soldier wrap a sling or use it in any manner to help improve accuracy.

With that said...just because soldiers are just using crap slings in A-stan does not mean that's what you should do to be like them. Go with a Vickers CAS or something similar. I know on my next deployment I'm bringing one along...it makes a hell of a difference.


CMS
 
#40
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

JJ- yes, very true. It still doesn't happen though and is endemic to Big Army. When the majority of time is spent doing other taskings beside training, it is out of even the Platoon Sergeant's hands. It rests on the 1SG and CSM for each unit. What would they rather have their soldiers doing? Training or not? The answer is often not when you look at their directives versus what they may or may not claim. I agree that live fire is not the end all be all, but, I've rarely seen weapons drawn outside of that context. Perhaps this is more relegated to Mech divisions as I have no experience in Airborne or Light units.

The other issue is in reality, there is very little NCO influence in such training at the level of a SGT or even SSG. For the guys on here who are still in, they can huff and puff all they want and it doesn't change the reality that weapons training for the average guy is just a check the block thing. When they stop checking the block, the direction this thread has taken will have merit. Until then, it's a bunch of people on the internet who may or may not be involved in affecting training. The implementation of the ACOG is a perfect example. It is underused, under trained, and very rarely do any non-specialized soldiers with one on their issued weapon test, train, and sustain the skills and abilities associated with it.

My suggestion is to get DA to recognize that BRM in all its permutations is a complete joke as it is currently implemented across the board, non-specialized roles not withstanding as they have no bearing on my original statement.

Outside of that, I view the direction this thread has taken as pointless in regards to the context and spirit of my original post which merely stated in part: "Anything outside of that requirement is not useful for the <span style="font-style: italic">average joe on the ground</span>. Taking time to properly sling up is a specialized focus."
 
#41
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>
If you think a two point is only to go on your back then your comment is total shit. </div></div>

I think you can go fuck yourself. My opinion doesn't have to be yours. Assclown.
 
#42
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>

Mac, don't forget...some of us are short guys and like to save our knee caps.
smile.gif

<span style="color: #FF0000">
I'm not forgetting anything. I just gave my personal opinion and I didn't say it was his only option. A weapon catch fixes the dangling rifle issue. It did for me and my guys anyway. And I'm one of those short guys.</span>





Single points offer much less control when hands are off the weapon. For people like BigJoe, that are bigger and have access to many different types- I will not question why he chooses to use one and I trust his judgement for his application and needs.

For the OP: As you can tell, opinions abound.

Here is a multi-page article of each type with good info on all of them:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/tactical-slings/ </div></div>
 
#43
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

To the OP: look all these articles and opinions are one in the same. Take each with a grain of salt. The only way you are going to know what works for you is to try it.

Anyone here trys to sell you their opinion as end all fact is a fuckin loser. Buy or borrow a few to see what fits.
 
#44
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>

I've yet to find a quick way to secure a single point sling. It is always flopping around and in the way. It is difficult to move quickly without controlling it with at least one hand. There are times when your m4 may need to be out of the way, like running to the breach with a charge that requires 2 hands, climbing a wall or building, moving a casualty or anything else that really requires 2 hands.
Taking a knee with a single point and your hands full pretty much puts your muzzle in the dirt, snow or mud. Or worse in a casualties face. An uncontrolled hot barrel especially if you have been shooting suppressed can be a hazard.
I believe single point slings have their place, but to say that your weapon will never be on your back is a pretty narrow minded view of combat and situations that may arise. </div></div>

I think either you are Retarded,a PV1, a Pogue, or a deployed FOBit. I never said YOU would never put your weapon on your back. I said "I never put it on mine". PAY ATTENTION. A weapons catch...thing that catches your weapon to your side will keep muzzle out of the dirt and from dangling while you jerk off at whatever you are doing. Another dipshit!
 
#45
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

apopcorn.gif


$1 a bag, Vet discounts available.

Mac(stockton)- just so you know, J.J. is none of the above. Let me know if you need the 1026 brought up. Hopefully the driver remembered the winch control.
 
#46
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jackinfl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"My slight mod is that I don't use the rubber bands any more. I secure a CAT to my butt stock with a 10" shock cord loop. Figure 8 it to secure the TQ. When needed I stuff the sling webbing up in there to manage the slack & prevent grabbers."

DZ,
For the imagination challenged like me can you snap a pic of this set up? It sounds simple and it may solve carrying a tourniquet and getting the sling wrapped up on something while trying to get out of the patrol car in one foul swoop.
Jack </div></div>

I can't for a few months but I can probably describe it better.

10-12" length of shock cord. fold it in half & tie the ends together to make 1 loop. Holding the loop like a steering wheel in front of you twist one wrist up & the other down until it looks like a figure 8. Fold the figure 8 in half & you have 2 smaller loops connected at the base. Run the 2 loops over your stock, & stuff your TQ on the non firing side. spread the shock cord to provide the most retention for your TQ.

1983, I think that you're using the term average in a different context than what some of us are.
What you're calling average is what some would call shitbags. That may be a little harsh but still, someone who has no interest in improving his skill sets etc is hardly average. You're proposing that entire doctrinal changes be made but you're not willing to accept that a lot of these issues you're wishing to change could be done at the NCO level in a motivated PLT.

When the OP states he's looking for what the "Average" guy in the box is using I'm putting that in the context that he's looking for what proactive, open minded troops are doing to improve their survivability & killin' potential.

One may want to consider some of the sources on these "cookie cutter" opinions above. Some of them are the best trained dudes ever to wear a uniform. Others are just stuck in Charlie Shean's 1988 Navy SEAL days.
 
#49
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stockton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A single point sling is my choice. Transition and hands free are optimal. M4 is never on my back so a two point is total shit. </div></div>

I've yet to find a quick way to secure a single point sling. It is always flopping around and in the way. It is difficult to move quickly without controlling it with at least one hand. There are times when your m4 may need to be out of the way, like running to the breach with a charge that requires 2 hands, climbing a wall or building, moving a casualty or anything else that really requires 2 hands.
Taking a knee with a single point and your hands full pretty much puts your muzzle in the dirt, snow or mud. Or worse in a casualties face. An uncontrolled hot barrel especially if you have been shooting suppressed can be a hazard.
I believe single point slings have their place, but to say that your weapon will never be on your back is a pretty narrow minded view of combat and situations that may arise. </div></div>

I think either you are Retarded,a PV1, a Pogue, or a deployed FOBit. I never said YOU would never put your weapon on your back. I said "I never put it on mine". PAY ATTENTION. A weapons catch...thing that catches your weapon to your side will keep muzzle out of the dirt and from dangling while you jerk off at whatever you are doing. Another dipshit! </div></div>

I think he said somewhere else that he was SF.
 
#50
Re: Slings used on M4 rifles in Iraq / Afghanistan?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
apopcorn.gif


$1 a bag, Vet discounts available.

Mac(stockton)- just so you know, J.J. is none of the above. Let me know if you need the 1026 brought up. Hopefully the driver remembered the winch control. </div></div>

Just a quick assessment of his ignorant comment.
 
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