Gunsmithing Smokeless muzzleloader builders

[HSNARC]

Those of you in free states may be scratching your heads asking why in the heck anyone would want to build a ml, but we here in Illinois can’t use rifles for whitetail, and I’m sick and tired of shotguns with their lead balloon ballistics, retina detaching recoil, broad side of a barn accuracy, and crappy terminal performance.

Our laws do allow us to use modern ml rifles as long as they are at least .45 cal. My friend lent me his cva paramount and it is a couple orders of magnitude better than my using my shotguns or the ml’s my friends use. It’ll chuck a 280gr .452 cal .452 (claimed) bc polymer tipped bullet at just under 2400 FPS at the muzzle.

So next year I’ll have to give this one back and now that I’ve used the paramount I’m not going back. I see some smiths online advertising long range ml builds, but really I just don’t trust them because they’re the “genuwine green mountain barrel” types using kinda hokey ignition systems. I’m not super excited to put my eyeballs next to a glorified pipe bomb.

What say you professional competent Smith’s of the hide? Is this something you are comfortable with? What breech plug/ignition system would you suggest? Do you have to modify the bolt? How would one work up a load in one of these? How can you tell when things are getting dangerous?

 

[Bradu]

I think I seen that RWS Gunsmithing did one a while back, he does great work so you might contact him. I looked at the desert tech conversion for the same reason.

 

[tlsmith22]

Jeff Hankins is a well known muzzleloader guy and also Levi Reed. I think both of those guys build a 1000 yard gun. Even if you’re not looking for a 1000 yd muzzleloader, you have to have ur stuff together to build those. I have personally talked to both and I think either would be great but I am gonna let Levi convert my Remington UML to smokeless next season.

 

[Brux]

McWhorter Custom Rifles

 

[HSNARC]

McWhorter Custom Rifles

$5995? I’ve seen several of these builders offer a ml in this price range. What the crap? Like I can almost not imagine how you could make a rifle cost that much. Are these for guys who don’t have time or interest to figure out how to get it built, source the parts, and get it shooting, and would just rather pay someone else to do it?

 

[tlsmith22]

When I talked to Levi abt converting my rifle it was in the neighborhood of $1200-$1500 depending on what all I had done. If you are in the rifle for $800, that puts you at $2000-$2300 max. I think at that price he also had completed load development for you. That came with brake, funnel and bullet starter as well.

 

[Quest1000]

Why not get the paramount?

 

[tomcatfan]

I have a savage 10mlii and I’ve loved it. Smokeless is the way to go.

 

[HSNARC]

Why not get the paramount?

The paramount is a hell of a lot of gun for $999 but I feel sort of limited by its “black powder only” rating. Maybe I’m just being nearsighted thinking I couldn’t get good velocity and accuracy with bp.
The 1/22 twist is a tad slow for the 300-350 gr class pitman bullets, and if you’re going to shoot those why not push them around 3000 FPS with smokeless? Also I want I brake to make sportting hits a possibility.

 

[hlee]

You’re not going to get anywhere near 3000 FPS with a smokeless muzzleloader without turning your rifle into a pipe bomb. 2000 FPS, yes. 3000? Kaboom!

 

[tomcatfan]

My muzzle loader uses sabots with all my loads so no brake. And 3000 fps with a 300 gr projectile? Really? Unless your using the slowest powder available in a 40" barrel, I call BS. I’m running close to published max with a 240 gr projectile and only getting 2400 fps.

 

[JFive]

You’re not going to get anywhere near 3000 FPS with a smokeless muzzleloader without turning your rifle into a pipe bomb. 2000 FPS, yes. 3000? Kaboom!

I have a smokeless muzzleloader built on a Remington short action, that regularly shoots over 3000fps with sized 275gr Parker Ballistic Extreme bullets and it is very accurate.

 

[tlsmith22]

My remington shoots the 300 gr Parker MH at 2400 FPS and its not even smokeless.

The Savage was a sweet off the shelf smokeless when they made it.

 

[HSNARC]

The Savage was a sweet off the shelf smokeless when they made it.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah I wonder what the deal was there. I suppose too many people didn’t follow recommended data and blew their faces off.

 

[HSNARC]

My muzzle loader uses sabots with all my loads so no brake. And 3000 fps with a 300 gr projectile? Really? Unless your using the slowest powder available in a 40" barrel, I call BS. I’m running close to published max with a 240 gr projectile and only getting 2400 fps.

I think the sabots make the difference. I think most of the people running those high speed heavy bullets are running them bullet to bore after running them through a sizer due to get perfect diameter.

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

The Savage was a sweet off the shelf smokeless when they made it.

Yeah I wonder what the deal was there. I suppose too many people didn’t follow recommended data and blew their faces off.
[/QUOTE]
I think it was just a limited market, low sales numbers, high price, bad timing deal.
A good friend has one and they are legit however. Maybe just trying to score a used one is the way to save $4k over a custom.

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

GunBroker.com - Error

Here you go. Either way I’m interested to know which direction you head. Good luck.

 

[HSNARC]

Yeah I wonder what the deal was there. I suppose too many people didn’t follow recommended data and blew their faces off.

I think it was just a limited market, low sales numbers, high price, bad timing deal.
A good friend has one and they are legit however. Maybe just trying to score a used one is the way to save $4k over a custom.
[/QUOTE]
Did they only come in .50?

 

[Gerry McGinnis]

I built a .45 cal on a Remington 700 with a Bartlein barrel, 28”. Get all your components from Luke Horak at Arrowhead Rifles. I had Swinglock make a custom sizing die out of a drop of barrel, and am shooting Luke’s 310gr APBs at 2850 with a mild load of H322, could probably stretch to 3100ish at the next node and still be under safe pressures. With full form sizing, the accuracy is amazing. I swapped to Blackhorn 209 for an elk hunt last week, got 2400fps with the same bullets, and they worked awesome. Elk ran 20 yards with a nice wide blood trail, not that you need it when they die within 20 yards. I highly recommend dealing with Luke, and his LRMP breech plug system, and he will also build you a complete gun if you choose to go that route.

 

[HSNARC]

With the arrowhead or Hankins “modules” or primer holders, do they just sit in the breech plug and your bolt interacts with them just like the case head on a centerfire? Or does the bolt nose need to be modified somehow? The savage setups seem like they have a replacement bolthead that holds the module in sort of a shell holder setup like a reloading press to run the module up into the breech plug.

 

[Gerry McGinnis]

With the arrowhead or Hankins “modules” or primer holders, do they just sit in the breech plug and your bolt interacts with them just like the case head on a centerfire? Or does the bolt nose need to be modified somehow? The savage setups seem like they have a replacement bolthead that holds the module in sort of a shell holder setup like a reloading press to run the module up into the breech plug.

I built mine on a 308 bolt face short action, I just clip the LRMP module into the extractor before I close the bolt, it’s pretty quick and easy. You could make a little tool to do it, too. There is no ejector in the bolt, obviously. I thought it would be slow and tedious, but it’s very fast and easy compared to actually loading the powder charge and bullet!

 

[HSNARC]

Doesn’t sound any worse that putting the variflame module in the paramount breech plug.

How does that system headspace?just like a centerfire savage or remage setup? Screw the barrel in then use a primer module go/no go gauge?

 

[Quest1000]

The paramount is a hell of a lot of gun for $999 but I feel sort of limited by its “black powder only” rating. Maybe I’m just being nearsighted thinking I couldn’t get good velocity and accuracy with bp.
The 1/22 twist is a tad slow for the 300-350 gr class pitman bullets, and if you’re going to shoot those why not push them around 3000 FPS with smokeless? Also I want I brake to make sportting hits a possibility.

Got it!! Makes sense. Now I’m going to spend hours researching smokeless muzzleloaders. Haha

 

[tomcatfan]

So in my ingorence, I didn't know sizing bullets was a thing. Anyone know where I can pick up a sizing die? I kind of want to give this a try. I thought it was either lead or sabot.

 

[HSNARC]

So in my ingorence, I didn't know sizing bullets was a thing. Anyone know where I can pick up a sizing die? I kind of want to give this a try. I thought it was either lead or sabot.

I just looked at one on the arrowhead site. Hankins I think sells one too.

 

[duramaxed]

Bartlein posted these up not to long ago

 

[MK20]

What is wrong with a good old Model 29 8 3/8 inch. It shoots like a rifle.

 

[GH41]

"What is wrong with a good old Model 29 8 3/8 inch. It shoots like a rifle "

Nothing if your game is southern whitetail or smaller inside of 50 yards.

 

[sam4886]

I will say that I really enjoy my 700 UML. I'm limited to black powder amd no scopes for the ML seasons in WA, so that's how I shoot it all the time. They claim its a 300 yard gun, but I can't see that damn far with my peep, so...

The ignition is awesome. I much prefer dropping in the case just like any other rifle to trying any other system I've used. I've used everything from #11s on nipples and musket caps to all the 209 based stuff.

 

[HSNARC]

"What is wrong with a good old Model 29 8 3/8 inch. It shoots like a rifle "

Nothing if your game is southern whitetail or smaller inside of 50 yards.

Because .44 mag isn’t a sure thing at 2 yards center mass on 125 lb people let alone 300 lb white tails jacked up on rut hormones at 200 yards.

 

[702lineman]

Message toygunner on here or google Baldwin gun works. He is in Illinois also and has build quite a few I think. I seen some pictures of a ok me 3 shot groups at 500 yards with one he built and let's just say I have had rifles that wouldnt shoot that good. For us that live in this prison called Illinois, it's about the closest you will get to hunting with a rifle

 

[reeljob]

Call Jeff Hankins as already mentioned. He is the man!!!

 

[locotrician]

You’re not going to get anywhere near 3000 FPS with a smokeless muzzleloader without turning your rifle into a pipe bomb. 2000 FPS, yes. 3000? Kaboom!

I know thisbis old poat butbfor anyone coming across this , this guy is totally wrong , you can in fact get 3000 fps if that is your goal and use the right parts .

 

[Philys21]

Call Luke at Arrowhead. He’s treated me great and builds great shooting guns.

 

[Easy_E]

We have a Remington 700 factory Ultimate muzzleloader on the rack for 900ish at work on consignment.

 

[LRTalley]

I have 3 of Hankins smokeless muzzleloaders, And all of them shoot absolutely lights out. 300gr Pittman Aeromax with 103gr of H4895 averages 3040fps out of my hunting gun. Same rifle shot 4” 5 shot group at 750yds.

 

[BugIn762]

My 2019 Paramount 45 with Blackhorn 209 is as close as you can get to a smokeless MZ.
I shoot Fury 265 STB's and have had zero issues with ignition.

100 yds.

Used veterans discount. $750 to my door.
No sabot. Bullet sized to bore with Hankins sizer.

 

[larryh128]

So in my ingorence, I didn't know sizing bullets was a thing. Anyone know where I can pick up a sizing die? I kind of want to give this a try. I thought it was either lead or sabot.

I had mine precision ground at a shop that specializes in precision ID/OD grinding. Arrowhead modules work great and sabots do nothing but slow you down. I shoot 250 gr bullets at 2700 FPS and I can tell you that recoil isnt non existent.

 

[locotrician]

O

We have a Remington 700 factory Ultimate muzzleloader on the rack for 900ish at work on consignment.

Only 200 dollars more than brand new price ?

 

[Easy_E]

O
Only 200 dollars more than brand new price ?

This one has a leupold scope and some accessories thanks for pointing that out .