So is THIS what yall ment by Remington quality now days? HELP

[TexasMade]

Remington Sendero SF2 7mm mag. I tried 175 nosler handloads and 168gr sierra matchking handloads with same results. What could Cause this?? Picture shown was factory 160gr noslers. Keep in mind handloads didn't do better. Don't comment and say the problem is me. Ive shot a sender into .3s before. This one is not a shooter at the moment




Sendero Photo by connelyXtreme | Photobucket

One of those links shouldwork

 

[TexasMade]

group 1 = 1.6 moa
group 2 = 1 moa
group 3= 2 on paper 4 inches apart and one didn't make the paper so 7 inches??
group 4= 2 touching. 1 5 inches right

 

[Bob munden]

My new remington never shot so good out of the box, I didn't shoot that bad but the more rounds that go down the tube will help smooth out the barrel, around 350 rounds it settled down and started shooting like all the others, there newer rifles seem to have rough barrels, lots of tooling marks and such, I always wanted to try the tubb break in bullets but was always worried it would wear out the throat on a brand new rifle or push the the throat out so far with handloads I couldn't get close to the lands and still have enough bullet left in the case! I would say shoot and clean whatever break in process you use and just get some more rounds down the tube and see if it smoothes out some, don't know what else to tell ya

 

[Bob munden]

Disregard my last post if it's that bad I would be looking at the stock

 

[TexasMade]

Aprox 100 rounds down tube..It was actually broke in and after 50 rounds I cleaned it again and the 2nd patch came out dang near clean

 

[Keyrock]

It looks like something is working itself loose.

Is the scope still secure?

Have you checked the torque of the action screws? I have seen factory Remington's with out of spec torque and they have been quickly improve with a torque wrench.

 

[TexasMade]

Action screws. Badger base. Nightforce rings and nightforce scopes all torqued properly and checked several times. Scope has performed great on Larue as well so scope is not issue

 

[AK-Bandit]

I'm with Bob. I'd look to make sure that barrel is floating in the stock. I'd probably bed that action too if its shooting that bad. How's the muzzle look?

 

[Bob munden]

It looks like something is working itself loose.

Is the scope still secure?

Have you checked the torque of the action screws? I have seen factory Remington's with out of spec torque and they have been quickly improve with a torque wrench.

Agree, either that or there is a serious problem with the stock, my buddy had the same problem with a winchester 70 in 300 wsm he bought a hs precision stock for it and the gun shot just like yours, so he bought the same stock and returned the first one problem solved, there was something wrong with the first stock, we still don't know what it was cause it seemed to sit nicely to the bedding block, we played with the torque from 55 all the way to 70 and didn't make difference it would throw 2 shots in the same hole and one 5 inches in any direction, switched the new stock with the new stock that he just got and bam worked, we started out with all the obvious like scope base, scope rings, scope, and nothing made a difference, I'm sure you have done the same checking the scope, mounts, rings, and if it is still being that unpredictable I would bet there's something up with the stock, if you have another stock from a different gun try switching the barreled actions and see if the problem happens with the gun you know is a shooter, I wish I could help you more but it's not easy over the internet, if you don't have another gun and stock that's compatible try with a buddy's or something, but my money is on the stock, if it's that new send it back to remington and complain

 

[hdbiker1]

Yeah, try sending it back. Just hope that they don't say that it meets their standard for accuracy.

 

[17874]

How is the contact on the stock? Crown look alright?

 

[Surgikill]

Check the scope. Brother had a problem like that. Score internals were messed up.

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[USW.260]

Whats the twist rate for that Barrel....may be to slow for that heavy of a bullet moving that fast....If I'm wrong don't burn me. I'd try some 140's and 150's then see what happens. I had a Remy in 7mmMag once to use for a rebuild and took it out as it was "old, rusty, sporter barrel" before I stripped it down and the damn thing shot really well...3 out of 5 touching and under 1" at 108yds. That was with 140grain noslerBT's. Good luck.

 

[ArcticLight]

This is from my personal experience with factory rem's.
Factory Rem's take 35 rds down the tube after a good scrubbing before they settle in.
Buy a box of hunting ammo, throw it down range, then start looking to accuracy. It will settle in right between 30 and 35 rds from a scrubbed clean status.

Then put one wet patch and 3 dry patches t hrough it and put it way, try again and it should hold. If you have a brush for the barrel, throw it away, never use it.
That is, assuming what everyone else has said, that there is no barrel contact with the stock.
I sent mine in and cryo treated the action and barrel, ran tubbs final finish, and she was a shooter all day long with a factory bull tube.

 

[bkw1911]

Honestly Remington would probably say it meets there expectations. I remember sending a Remington back for a customer when I worked at a gun shop and they said that a 4" group at 100yds was nothing they were going to fix. I would say however, how much 7 mag loading have you done and how many powders/bullets have you tried?

 

[tylerw02]

I don't quite understand your post. You're saying you have 100 rounds through it and it must be the guns fault it isn't a tack driver for you based off four three round groups? What happened with the other 88 rounds?

Furthermore, you'll see the 175 bullets, according to Sierra, require a 1:8.5" twist or faster. Your Sendero II has a 1:9.5". I wouldn't expect them to perform well. honestly, the 1:9.5" is specifically set up for shooting shorter, light bullets like 140 and 150 gr bullets moving fast.

I know you say you've shot other rifles well, but that doesn't leave out shooter error, especially with a magnum. It looks like to me you're putting two good rounds on target and then a flier. Is the flier always on the third round? That typically means shooter error. If its a random round, not following a pattern, it could indicate something is loose. How long are you waiting between groups? Group 1 and 2 look descent, with 2 looking to be sub-MOA judging by the little squares, assuming they are 1/4".


My diagnosis, go home, do 100 dry fires a night for two weeks, pick up some 150 gr bullets, double and triple check torque on everything, fire 40 or 50 rounds to let it copper foul really well, resist the desire to scrub it, then try again.

 

[09jisaac]

If its not the scope (you said you had it on a LaRue)
It is not the rings or base loose.
The action screws are torqued properly.
The barrel isn't contacting the stock.
The crown isn't damaged.
And you are sure it isn't the ammo, or the shooter.


Then I would send it back. Somebody probably just had a bad day at the Rem factory.

 

[TexasMade]

Honestly Remington would probably say it meets there expectations. I remember sending a Remington back for a customer when I worked at a gun shop and they said that a 4" group at 100yds was nothing they were going to fix. I would say however, how much 7 mag loading have you done and how many powders/bullets have you tried?

My ammunition is very good. Its all done precise but granted I did not work up a load. I put in 2 loads that have worked for other people. I don't think the perfect load would fix my problem.

 

[tylerw02]

You haven't worked up a load? That's probably a good start!

If I just throw random mil surp ammo in my rifle, it may shoot 4 MOA, but with handloads worked up in the gun it shoots 1/2 MOA so I would say it does matter.


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[TexasMade]

I don't quite understand your post. You're saying you have 100 rounds through it and it must be the guns fault it isn't a tack driver for you based off four three round groups? What happened with the other 88 rounds?

Furthermore, you'll see the 175 bullets, according to Sierra, require a 1:8.5" twist or faster. Your Sendero II has a 1:9.5". I wouldn't expect them to perform well. honestly, the 1:9.5" is specifically set up for shooting shorter, light bullets like 140 and 150 gr bullets moving fast.

I know you say you've shot other rifles well, but that doesn't leave out shooter error, especially with a magnum. It looks like to me you're putting two good rounds on target and then a flier. Is the flier always on the third round? That typically means shooter error. If its a random round, not following a pattern, it could indicate something is loose. How long are you waiting between groups? Group 1 and 2 look descent, with 2 looking to be sub-MOA judging by the little squares, assuming they are 1/4".


My diagnosis, go home, do 100 dry fires a night for two weeks, pick up some 150 gr bullets, double and triple check torque on everything, fire 40 or 50 rounds to let it copper foul really well, resist the desire to scrub it, then try again.

The other 88 rounds are the same results man. I just thought give it some time but it is just the same ole crap.
You are right on the 175s not being optimum but my buddy shoots the 175 noslers into 1 ragged hole out of his sendero so I decided to try them. I have seen them work.
Those are 1/2 inch squares. Im not going to comment on the shooting. Like I said I'm man enough to tell you if its me. I have a custom 7mag that Ive held sub Moa all the way to 1k without a muzzle break. Recoil doesn't bother me and I know it aint me pulling it. Look at group 4, 2 right beside each other and 1 5 inches off. If someone pulls off target theres no way I pulled 5 inches. Ive been known on bad days to pull about 1/2inch.
Im going to try some superformance with a 150. All other loads were retumbo except factory ammo. I don't know what they have in it

 

[bkw1911]

My ammunition is very good. Its all done precise but granted I did not work up a load. I put in 2 loads that have worked for other people. I don't think the perfect load would fix my problem.

You'd be surprised how bad another man's pet load can shoot in another rifle, especially factory barrel. With my 6.5 creed right now if I load from 42gr-42.6gr of h4350 with a 140 gr bullet, I get horrible results, anywhere from 1.5-2" out of a complete custom rifle. 42-42.6gr of h4350 is the accuracy range for most people's creeds, but mine only shoots around 41.8gr and 42.8gr, shoots about .25". And like was said earlier, your twist rate isn't set up for those heavy bullets.

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[TexasMade]

You haven't worked up a load? That's probably a good start!

If I just throw random mil surp ammo in my rifle, it may shoot 4 MOA, but with handloads worked up in the gun it shoots 1/2 MOA so I would say it does matter.


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A good rifle should at least shoot FACTORY ammunition into 1.5 MOA if you find something it likes. If its shooting 4 inches and worse on group 3, one shot didn't hit paper..I'm not gonna waste my time working up a load.

 

[TexasMade]

All this talk about ammunition is stupid. Its Something beyond ammunition. We are talking 5 inches to possibly according to group 3 maybe 8 inches.

 

[diverdon]

This is from my personal experience with factory rem's.
Factory Rem's take 35 rds down the tube after a good scrubbing before they settle in.
Buy a box of hunting ammo, throw it down range, then start looking to accuracy. It will settle in right between 30 and 35 rdstube.

+1

Last year my brothers and I bought five identical stainless Sendero's (I think it is a B&C stock) in .300 WM. They all shot about like your groups in the beginning. Some got tight around 30 rounds, one took 50. Everyone of them is a MOA shooter now. I took mine to a BHTC training course and shot the heck out of it for two days. It could make the thousand Yard hits when I did my part.

I would not worry about cleaning until it starts to shoot good then starts to fall off.

 

[tylerw02]

It maybe should shoot 1.5 MOA, which it did for two groups in your rifle, but you've only tried one kind of ammo.

There is something going on that two go through one hole and one flier for three of your groups.

Only other thing that I would think it could be is that it's just a bad barrel with lots of stress in the steel.


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[TexasMade]

It maybe should shoot 1.5 MOA, which it did for two groups in your rifle, but you've only tried one kind of ammo.

There is something going on that two go through one hole and one flier for three of your groups.

Only other thing that I would think it could be is that it's just a bad barrel with lots of stress in the steel.


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I should have made myself more clear. Before this range day, It had already had several different kinds of factory ammo. Winchester, HSM..

 

[TexasMade]

How is the contact on the stock? Crown look alright?

Check/Check both OK. Now when gun fires it may touch stock? Idk

 

[tylerw02]

Sell it and try again. Or rebarrel. Lemon is the answer you're looking for.


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[TexasMade]

Sell it and try again. Or rebarrel. Lemon is the answer you're looking for.


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LOL well I don't really want to sell a lemon to somebody..I'm going to try to find the answer. Bedding I think is where Im going to start

 

[supercorndogs]

i had a bedding problem with an hs stock on a remington 700 223 that was very similar. it would shoot 10 shot groups 3-4 inches there would be three or four ragged holes each randomly placed a couple inches apart. it was very frustrating i changed the stock and the rifle shot great

 

[tylerw02]

Undo the action screws and try rocking the action back and forth. If it rocks very much, it may need bedded. 9/10 times the aluminum blocks are good to go. Also try to see if the recoil lug is making full contact along the back side. It may need skimmed and that would solve the issue.


Also check that the scope base doesn't need bedding. There are instructions on how to do this. Torquing down the scope base without bedding it can make a rifle so funny thing.


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[longshooter]

Make sure your magazine box has some wiggle room, after all is torqued down. If it doesn't, then it's binding.

Then try this;

Partial length resize the brass, stopping 0.050"-0.075" short of full length resize. When chambered, this will help to align the bullet with the bore.

If the chamber is the problem, this will reduce the groups by 50%.

Then enter into load development.

 

[TexasMade]

Will take a look. Thanks!

 

[hlee]

It could be the ammo..
Granted, this was not with a remington 700, however...


Federal Fusion 308win, 100 yards


Hornady match 168 gr 308win, 100 yards

The above 2 targets were shot within a few minutes of each other.


Handloads, 100 yards...

I tried 15 varieties of 223 rem ammo to find the 2 that my ar15 "likes." The difference was 5 shots that could be covered by a baseball cap vs10 shot that could be covered by a quarter, at 100 yards.

You really don't know what you have until you do some substantial load development/trial and error.

 

[TexasMade]

It could be the ammo..
Granted, this was not with a remington 700, however...


Federal Fusion 308win, 100 yards


Hornady match 168 gr 308win, 100 yards

The above 2 targets were shot within a few minutes of each other.


Handloads, 100 yards...

I tried 15 varieties of 223 rem ammo to find the 2 that my ar15 "likes." The difference was 5 shots that could be covered by a baseball cap vs10 shot that could be covered by a quarter, at 100 yards.

You really don't know what you have until you do some substantial load development/trial and error.

Wow that's impressive. No I wouldn't have thought that. But keep in mind your talking AR15 vs Remingtons "most accurate rifle"

 

[my human host]

Skim bedding would be a good start. If you are on good terms with someone who has a borescope, it might pay to take a look in there.

I can't think of anything subtle that would cause accuracy to suck that badly.

Bedding, barrel, floating locking lug. Those are my guesses, provided your scope is a known performer.

Good on ya for not wanting to pass a poor shooting rifle on to the next guy.

 

[coach4christ]

I'm voting on getting the 140s for the 7mm. My factory 700 shoots 140 accubonds just a shade over 3/4 of an inch. I stopped there because that is good enough for my hunting rig. During my load work up, it tried the heavier 7 mm bullets with little success. The shorter lighter bullets are the ticket in the factory 7 mm's.

 

[TexasMade]

Awesome. Will try all things. Id like to see what problem is

 

[1slow01z71]

My 308 5R sprayed 147s in 5"+ groups, with my 178 amax loads it groups well below 1/2moa when the stars align and 3/4moa all day every day when I do my part. Some barrels are just temperamental. I thought I had a lemon and was preparing to scream and yell but even the worst loads during developing the 178 amax load was 2 moa. Try some more loads before you give up.

 

[rifleman700]

What do the lugs look like? Is there contact on both sides?

 

[TexasMade]

What do the lugs look like? Is there contact on both sides?

Can you help me out on what Im looking for exactly

 

[rifleman700]

Pull the bolt out and look at the back side of the lugs and you should see shiny wear spots indicating contact on both sides. If only one side has wear this is where your problem is. Common for factory 700's but easily fixed by gunsmith.

 

[Bob munden]

My 308 5R sprayed 147s in 5"+ groups, with my 178 amax loads it groups well below 1/2moa when the stars align and 3/4moa all day every day when I do my part. Some barrels are just temperamental. I thought I had a lemon and was preparing to scream and yell but even the worst loads during developing the 178 amax load was 2 moa. Try some more loads before you give up.

There's a lot of talk about ammo, but at 100-200 yards a heavy bullet in a slow twist may not be optimal but I have never seen such a dramatic group size, at distance I would agree your gona see major group size changes but that close of a distance the bullet doesn't have much of a chance to show you how it actually flys, I have multiple rem 5r in 223 and 308 and have loaded everything from long and heavy to short and light just to see but have never seen a 5+ inch group! some a couple inches but nothing dramatic! plus when you get 2 touching and one that flys away like it was shot from a different gun leads me to believe that if the scope, rings, bases, have been triple checked even trying a different scope to make sure something hasn't rattled loose, there is a major problem like the stock, if the barrel was the problem I don't think you would ever see a couple holes touching it would look more like a shotgun pattern, just my opinion use it for what it's worth

 

[Bob munden]

I will also say that if you have confidence in any load it will shoot ok, no confidence in a load you purposely help the load suck!

 

[runningun6mm]

As was already stated Remington thinks 4" @ 100 yds is acceptable accuracy even with a Sendero. Just joking here - I'll give you $150 for the rifle just to take it off your hands so you don't have to deal with the headache of it any more.

 

[scpaul]

I just cked. the Rem. 2014 catalog. It says the 7mm sendero has a 9 1/4 twist bbl. I don't have a bullet to measure for the length to enter into the twist calculator to figure the min. twist for that bullet. Reason for all this is it's hard to tell from the pic. but it looks like the bullets are trying to tumble or they haven't stabilized. A 175 gr. 7mm bullet seems alot for a 9 1/4 twist bbl. I have 2 senderos,300 win & 300 ultra they both will out shoot me any day. I really noticed alot of improvement in accuracy when I went to very slow powders. The 300 win. likes IMR7828 &the ultra likes H50BMG, And just for $^#@* and giggles I'd do a cleanup on the crown, some crown defects can be almost microscopic. Both of mine seem to like the .308 Nosler C/T 168 gr. bullet. Other bullets shoot better but it was the most forgiving while trying the different powders. I have seen Rem. send rifles back they said were within their specs., but you have got remember the numbers/types of self professed marksmen that they have to deal with on a daily basis. Oh ,just a suggestion is to use std. targets because the orange peel type targets make it harder to see the hole as clearly as possible for troubleshooting. Best of luck, Paul

 

[Ring]

Tubb Final Finish Bore Lapping System 284 Cal 7mm

 

[Hookturnr]

You shouldn't be having stabilization issues in a 9.25 twist barrel. I am currently shooting 180gr VLD'S IN A 280 AI at 2750fps out of a 9 twist Rock and it's a HAMMER! The 9.25 twist will stabilize the heavies just fine as long as you get them going relatively fast....that shouldn't be an issue with the 7mag case capacity. Try H4831 or H1000. Both have been better in my AI and my 7mag.

 

[speerchucker]

You shouldn't be having stabilization issues in a 9.25 twist barrel. I am currently shooting 180gr VLD'S IN A 280 AI at 2750fps out of a 9 twist Rock and it's a HAMMER! The 9.25 twist will stabilize the heavies just fine as long as you get them going relatively fast....that shouldn't be an issue with the 7mag case capacity. Try H4831 or H1000. Both have been better in my AI and my 7mag.

+1 on this i have a sendero 7mm rem mag and shot the 180 VLDH today with 69g of h1000 cci250 and it shot .565 if you discount
the clean bore shot i will be tweaking seating depth to see what i can squeeze out of this rifle.
and i just checked the burger twist calc on the 180vld oal is 1.525 and the Stability factor is good
at 1.43 so 1 in 9.25 should do a 175.

cheers D