I am sure this has been asked six hundred ways from Sunday, but since people like to constantly ask which scope has the best glass I thought we could rehash which scope maker actually makes their own glass and or lens. So lately I have seen Hensoldt and Tangent Theta mentioned as the best I assume they actually make their lenses, but I don't know for sure so for those of you that actually know please educate me and the rest of us.
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Rifle Scopes So which scope maker absolutely 100% makes their own glass and or lens.
- Thread starter Steel+Killer
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I have been in this industry my whole life as we are a family owned and operated business since 1957 and I have been coming in since I was a little kid. I can say without fear of being corrected that there is not 1 company that does not outsource pieces parts for some part of their line.
As far as glass goes, I have been to Wetzlar to Leica and they make their own optics and coat them as I've seen it with my own eyes.
I believe that Swarovski makes their own glass as well, however, as I've not seen it I will not swear to it.
Some mfg's outsource their glass and then finish and coat it themselves. The coating makes a world of difference in quality.
Getting a 100% straight answer out of a mfg is a near impossibility.
When I first started Schott was German optics and that was that. Now Schott also has plants in the Pacific Rim. Nothing is as it appears any more.
Just my $.02 worth on intel
As far as glass goes, I have been to Wetzlar to Leica and they make their own optics and coat them as I've seen it with my own eyes.
I believe that Swarovski makes their own glass as well, however, as I've not seen it I will not swear to it.
Some mfg's outsource their glass and then finish and coat it themselves. The coating makes a world of difference in quality.
Getting a 100% straight answer out of a mfg is a near impossibility.
When I first started Schott was German optics and that was that. Now Schott also has plants in the Pacific Rim. Nothing is as it appears any more.
Just my $.02 worth on intel
I guess we should clarify the definition of "making their own glass" should I say grinding their own lenses?
Ah... but making glass has been a point of pride in the past. As has been the type of alloy for any number of products, etc. etc.
When DO we consider "of course they outsource [this]" to be acceptable, and when is something a vendor-produced item?
When do we care? A lot of us will complain about crappy Made In China stuff but then go buy, say, an iPhone for the amazing quality. Made in China, 100% by a vendor not Apple at all.
It's an outsourced, vendor-driven world. Often it is simply impossible to compete with not just making your own widgets, but even locally sourcing them. Hard to judge a lot of this stuff in the traditional ways anymore.
When DO we consider "of course they outsource [this]" to be acceptable, and when is something a vendor-produced item?
When do we care? A lot of us will complain about crappy Made In China stuff but then go buy, say, an iPhone for the amazing quality. Made in China, 100% by a vendor not Apple at all.
It's an outsourced, vendor-driven world. Often it is simply impossible to compete with not just making your own widgets, but even locally sourcing them. Hard to judge a lot of this stuff in the traditional ways anymore.
Fifty years ago this year, I was 21, just out of the Marines/Vietnam, and an employee of Razdow Laboratories, an Optical supplier and NASA Apollo contractor.
We outsourced stuff too. Outsourcing is not a down check by any means. We did it because it allowed us to obtain the finest custom optical components from the very best suppliers without needing run an entire glass plant, grinding shop, and coating facility. Besides NASA, other customers included the US Bureau of Standards and Sandia Laboratories. We kept them all very happy with under 20 employees.
Greg
We outsourced stuff too. Outsourcing is not a down check by any means. We did it because it allowed us to obtain the finest custom optical components from the very best suppliers without needing run an entire glass plant, grinding shop, and coating facility. Besides NASA, other customers included the US Bureau of Standards and Sandia Laboratories. We kept them all very happy with under 20 employees.
Greg
I went to the Anchor Hocking plant in Pennsylvania when I was a kid.
They made glass there.
They made glass there.
I stand corrected.
On the subject of outsourcing, there's something to be said for using specialists... for instance, if I needed brain surgery, I'm going to look for a neurosurgeon rather than a general scalpel-and-stitches guy...
When Vortex first announced the AMG and spoke of it's "100% Made in the USA" origins they also spoke of all the parts being sourced from the USA, does that mean the glass was also sourced in the USA, it was my understanding that this was the case; however, it did not mean that everything was made by Vortex so it's highly likely they source glass and other parts from other manufacturers but here in the USA. The latest AMG's are still made in the USA; however, they now have a German etching company doing the reticles for them, I believe the glass is still sourced, ground, polished, etc. here in the USA but is then sent to Germany to be etched and then back to the USA.
Regarding the OP's comments about Hensoldt and Tangent Theta, if I'm not mistaken both scopes use glass from Schott, now, where that glass from Schott was sourced from who knows.
There is glass and then there is glass. You can come up with something you can more or less see through by going to a beach and scooping up some sand and melting it, provided you can come up with a hot enough furnace. Now, optical glass is a kinda different animal. It is mostly pure silica that has been milled and ground to very specific sizes so it will melt uniformly. There are many different additives or, if you will, alloying materials added either before or during the melting process. Again, these must be mixed carefully to form a homogenous mass for the final casting or blowing process. Then there is cooling, at first in ovens and then, maybe later in a jacket or coated for cooling.
A strange example, the 100" reflector for the Mt Wilson telescope was actually coated with manure during part of its cooling phase. It cracked, and was rejected. 3 tries resulted in no acceptable samples and the company making the product ran out of money. It was decided to go ahead and try to use the first example. 4 years of grinding and polishing later, it proved to be acceptable. It was the telescope used by Erwin Hubble to make a couple of discoveries that completely changed our view of the universe and how it worked.
Now, the small lenses as used in our telescopic sights are much easier to work on and automated grinding and polishing machinery is very, very good at its job. Coatings and modifications like etching of reticles are pretty much undertaken by specialist companies that may or may not be in whole or in part be owned by scope manufacturers or both entities may be under the umbrella of a much bigger corporation. Such is the modern world of manufacturing.
A strange example, the 100" reflector for the Mt Wilson telescope was actually coated with manure during part of its cooling phase. It cracked, and was rejected. 3 tries resulted in no acceptable samples and the company making the product ran out of money. It was decided to go ahead and try to use the first example. 4 years of grinding and polishing later, it proved to be acceptable. It was the telescope used by Erwin Hubble to make a couple of discoveries that completely changed our view of the universe and how it worked.
Now, the small lenses as used in our telescopic sights are much easier to work on and automated grinding and polishing machinery is very, very good at its job. Coatings and modifications like etching of reticles are pretty much undertaken by specialist companies that may or may not be in whole or in part be owned by scope manufacturers or both entities may be under the umbrella of a much bigger corporation. Such is the modern world of manufacturing.
Not this shit again....
Meopta
Nikon
Zeiss
Leica
The key here is each of these companies also make lenses for other applications (like photography and astronomy). So they're already set up for it. Meopta is actually an OEM too, not just a manufacturer.
Nikon
Zeiss
Leica
The key here is each of these companies also make lenses for other applications (like photography and astronomy). So they're already set up for it. Meopta is actually an OEM too, not just a manufacturer.
Do you think even in Nikon’s lower end stuff like the FX SERIES they make those also or are they outsourced?
The simple answer is, “it doesn’t matter”.
But I suppose it could make for semi interesting conversation.
But I suppose it could make for semi interesting conversation.
None of the Grand Prix teams (or any racing team for that matter) make everything in-house. And some of them, Ferrari, McLaren, etc. have managed to win a few races over the years.
Nikon sport optics does not make or grind glass. Every one of their products is outsourced from China, Philippines, or Japan(not 100% sure if they have anything from Japan at the moment).
Meopta has there own manufacturing plants. One in Europe that I know of and one in New York that I know of. I dont believe zeiss sport optics is making any of their own products anymore either. Meopta does some stuff for Zeiss along with a a few asian factories. The only Zeiss products I am not 100% sure about is their high end products. That being said, I do not know if meopta grinds,polishes, or coats lenses. If I had to guess. I would say they do not(and I would be wrong,lol. Thanks Ilya)
The one thing you really need to remember is that most of these European countries are not nearly as strict on their country of origin laws as the USA is. Which means they can source many parts from Asia and do not have to disclose that info. Steiner, IMO, has been the most deceiving about this.
Ilya would most likely be able to shed some light on this subject. However, he may not just as a professional courtesy.
Meopta has there own manufacturing plants. One in Europe that I know of and one in New York that I know of. I dont believe zeiss sport optics is making any of their own products anymore either. Meopta does some stuff for Zeiss along with a a few asian factories. The only Zeiss products I am not 100% sure about is their high end products. That being said, I do not know if meopta grinds,polishes, or coats lenses. If I had to guess. I would say they do not(and I would be wrong,lol. Thanks Ilya)
The one thing you really need to remember is that most of these European countries are not nearly as strict on their country of origin laws as the USA is. Which means they can source many parts from Asia and do not have to disclose that info. Steiner, IMO, has been the most deceiving about this.
Ilya would most likely be able to shed some light on this subject. However, he may not just as a professional courtesy.
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Meopta grinds, polishes and coats their lenses, or at least has the capability to do so and does for at least some of their products. Coatings in particular are their field of expertise and they are among the best in the world at it. I would not be surprised if they did coatings for a lot of people. Their US facility has moved to Florida. Used to be in New York.
Nikon, in the sport optics world, is largely a branding and distribution company as far as riflescopes go. They spec out what they want from OEMs, who do the both the design and manufacturing for them. All of their riflescopes are made in the Phillipines at the moment. I think they have designed some of the binoculars and spotting scopes, but I do not think they manufacture any of them outside of the ultra high end binos like the WX.
ILya
Nikon, in the sport optics world, is largely a branding and distribution company as far as riflescopes go. They spec out what they want from OEMs, who do the both the design and manufacturing for them. All of their riflescopes are made in the Phillipines at the moment. I think they have designed some of the binoculars and spotting scopes, but I do not think they manufacture any of them outside of the ultra high end binos like the WX.
ILya
Someone help me understand why this matters. It seems to me that outsourcing parts may imply better quality potential because specialized companies are providing product that’s very particular, expensive, and difficult in manufacturing.
I’m imagining a group of designers and engineers with a vision for the best configuration of a product. Once they spec their needs, they likely must go to different sources to ensure the best parts. To stay competitive. What if an innovation is developed that requires certain extremely expensive equipment? A company can’t stay profitable chasing tools that may not pan out.
On a similar note, I’d say the best rifle scope can’t be developed by the nerds behind incredible glass. They don’t have the expertise and understanding of the nature of that product to construct best features. And shooters don’t have the expertise and science to pursue best glass.
IME, To be the best, you have to start with a vision and a design. To find the best parts, you may need flexibility, especially as technology advances.
Let the specialists compete and they will provide components beyond expectations and imagination. Then when the next incredible development comes along, switch again!
I’m imagining a group of designers and engineers with a vision for the best configuration of a product. Once they spec their needs, they likely must go to different sources to ensure the best parts. To stay competitive. What if an innovation is developed that requires certain extremely expensive equipment? A company can’t stay profitable chasing tools that may not pan out.
On a similar note, I’d say the best rifle scope can’t be developed by the nerds behind incredible glass. They don’t have the expertise and understanding of the nature of that product to construct best features. And shooters don’t have the expertise and science to pursue best glass.
IME, To be the best, you have to start with a vision and a design. To find the best parts, you may need flexibility, especially as technology advances.
Let the specialists compete and they will provide components beyond expectations and imagination. Then when the next incredible development comes along, switch again!
Not many people grind mirrors for their own telescopes but far fewer grind the lenses for their eyepieces.
It's a rare optometrist that ever grinds the curve on a lens.
I think I would rather buy a scope made by a company that focuses on design and QC while using the best products available than a company trying to use up all the output of a glass foundry.
And one of these days I'll melt down a bunch of Schott Borofloat I have to make a honeycomb mirror blank but I don't think I'll drop six figures to set up for alumanizing it.
It's a rare optometrist that ever grinds the curve on a lens.
I think I would rather buy a scope made by a company that focuses on design and QC while using the best products available than a company trying to use up all the output of a glass foundry.
And one of these days I'll melt down a bunch of Schott Borofloat I have to make a honeycomb mirror blank but I don't think I'll drop six figures to set up for alumanizing it.
Zeiss is the only right answer. Leica, Swarovski, etc all buy raw lenses from Schott Glass. everyone else has their scopes made in China, Japan, etc. A company called LOW in Japan makes a lot of them. Not sure who many people talk like they know, 5 seconds on Swarovski's website and it clearly says Schott glass is used on almost all their products except their cheap scopes like the z3 and z5. Heck they even mention the line to Schott glass on their binos. Schott if owned by Zeiss
Joined today just to add this gem to a 3 year old dead thread huh?
This is pretty much what my Smith told me also. He also said that a very large chunk of the outsourcing of glass is coming from China now. He said the Chinese have figured out how to make extremely good glass and just about all of the major players are getting their glass from there now, then coating it elsewhere. (I am paraphrasing but that was the meat of it). Can you comment on that part?
I'm seriously thinking about resurrecting this:
Best caliber/rifle for 600-1000 yards.
Re: Best caliber/rifle for 600-1000 yards. LOL. At this point, the original poster is adding his own advice to the thread based on the 3 years of experience he now has on the matter! hahahaha
www.snipershide.com
My thoughts as well, and there is a lot in that post from Happy Cantaloupe that is wrong even if I understand the typos correctly.
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