so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

[cali_tz]

well look and see what happens to 175 SMKs at a much closer range of 900 yards.
When I went to paint the 900 steel I found a bunch 175 SMKs just laying in the dirt. Some had bounced off the dirt, some off of wood beams nearby and others maybe off the steel target. But clearly as you can see, the 175SMK has lost most of it's energy at 900 yards. There is so little energy they don't even burrow into the loose california dust.

So imagine what happens at a distance of about 2x the distance these bullets landed. Even our 300 Scenar today got blow around by wind at 900 yards... throwing a 175 SMK to 1000 yards, leave alone 1770 yards is an exercise in ammo wastage.



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[bassani]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

you could shoot your eye out!!!

 

[BlueVFRank]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Love the bottom one. you can really imagine that it hit something on the nose and dropped to the ground while still horizontaly like you see in the old cartoons.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well look and see what happens to 175 SMKs at a much closer range of 900 yards.
When I went to paint the 900 steel I found a bunch 175 SMKs just laying in the dirt. Some had bounced off the dirt, some off of wood beams nearby and others maybe off the steel target. But clearly as you can see, the 175SMK has lost most of it's energy at 900 yards. There is so little energy they don't even burrow into the loose california dust.

So imagine what happens at a distance of about 2x the distance these bullets landed. Even our 300 Scenar today got blow around by wind at 900 yards... throwing a 175 SMK to 1000 yards, leave alone 1770 yards is an exercise in ammo wastage.
There are thousands of rounds a year...shot from .308`s ( FTR ) at 1K yds.with exceptional accuracy.
Not opinion but fact.
bill larson



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[maclowry]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

to OP, were these your rounds you found? what were they loaded with?

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Those are not smk 175's

 

[AKA-Spook]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy M40a2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those are not smk 175's </div></div>

Good eyes there Jim.

 

[UIUCPPQ]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Bill, he's talking about a mile, not just 1k yards. However, the gentleman who posted his lovely shoot up north was shooting 1600yds I believe and still piercing his target. Although if I remember correctly from the article he did have keyholing.

I'd say 1mile is definitely possible but out of the realm of likelihood. (I couldn't do it)

 

[Whit]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I can tell those are not SMK's right off the bat. For one SMK's don't have the bands around them. Third from the top don't even look like it even hit anything except dirt.

 

[Temp9]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

175 SMK's should still be supersonic at 1000 yards. It seems many people (not me) are proving you wrong by shooting at a mile with .308 fairly regularly. JBM Ballistics tells me the bullet will still be chugging along at 860fps at a mile. Not enough for hunting, but it's not quite dead yet!

 

[HarryBallz2029]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I watched a movie call The Art Of the Precision Rifle from MagPul and Todd the long range shooting instructor said in the video they hung a pig at a mile and shot it with a 308 and it still passed through the pig. After they went that route they decided to check and see how fast the round was travling @ 1 mile and they came to the conclusion that with the 175 running around 2650( i think dont remember specifcally) the round still was running 850-900 FPS which is enough to drop any soft target known to man.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Cali, the 175SMK still rings steel pretty well at 1000. On my AR500 targets they still completely disintegrate. Throwing 175SMKs at 1000 from a 308 is only a waste of ammo based on the shooter, not the capability of the round.

308 ballistics my location, about 900'MSL, and 90degrees - 175SMKs are doing 1240fps at that range with 598 ft-lbs energy, which is easily more energy than a 45acp at the muzzle. I sure wouldn't try and catch one.

At one mile 308 175SMKs still have slightly more energy than Hornady 9mm 147gr XTPs...at the muzzle.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I've shot the 308 to a mile a few times. Definitely a stretch, but it passes for great entertainment.

I shoot the 208gr AMax at 2620 fps from a 20.5" bbl. These are the external ballistics at 4500',

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Muzzle velocity : 2620 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient (G1): .648
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2620 0.0000 3170 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
X 100 2505 0.1171 2897 0.0 0.5 0.43 2.6 0.0 0.00 0.78
| 200 2392 0.2386 2643 -3.4 1.7 0.80 10.7 +4.8 +1.66 1.59
| 400 2176 0.5023 2187 -29.4 7.8 1.86 45.8 +20.5 +7.04 3.35
| 600 1971 0.7911 1795 -84.5 18.3 2.91 110.1 +39.2 +13.47 5.27
| 800 1778 1.1110 1460 -175.4 34.3 4.10 210.2 +60.9 +20.96 7.41
| 1000 1600 1.4706 1182 -312.7 57.3 5.47 356.7 +86.9 +29.88 9.80
| 1200 1436 1.8635 953 -501.7 86.1 6.85 554.9 +116.1 +39.94 12.42
| 1400 1295 2.3053 774 -762.3 123.6 8.43 824.7 +151.2 +52.01 15.37
| 1600 1176 2.7917 638 -1106.9 168.9 10.08 1178.5 +192.1 +66.08 18.61
| 1760 1100 3.2142 559 -1456.7 211.0 11.45 1535.7 +229.8 +79.04 21.43

</pre></div></div>

Here's a pic of a 208 AMax fired from the 308, after hitting frozen ground at about 1800 yards.

Although it's running out of gas, I wouldn't care to stop one with my person.

 

[northern shooter]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

PALM TO THE FACE!

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

correct, the first one I picked up sure looked like the 175 SMK I shoot alot. The ringed ones obviously are not. But nonetheless the point remains the same. These bullets were found laying in the dirt at 890 yards to be exact. And that is absolutely the farthest point at which this target can be shot. I have shot at this target and hit it with 308 plenty, but the AR500 ring sound is quite weak at this distance.

I am tongue in cheek on the topic though. I have found my 300 Scenars at 1600 to 1760 yards away from my AR500 steel that bounced off the dirt. Most of the time if I find a 300 Scenar I have to dig with my knife into the dirt for quite a bit, maybe 3-6" before I find it. And in no distance from the target do I want to try and catch one of these with my hand.

 

[Whit]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I have hit 1000yd steel (8" diameter circle) a lot and have not had trouble hearing it. I shoot .308 175gr SMK at 2650fps. I have electronic ear muffs, but it doesn't amplify any thing. I makes it more clear but not amplify.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

308 at a mile/208 a-max/ = 45acp at the muzzle
stopping power or what?

 

[Drgonzo_1981]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Exactly! First those look like military ammo, like a 146 gr because of the cannelure. The 175smk still has a 45's velocity at I mile, maybe not quite the energy. It will damn sure bust your grape if it hits it, and go right on through.

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">correct, the first one I picked up sure looked like the 175 SMK I shoot alot. The ringed ones obviously are not. <span style="color: #FF0000">But nonetheless the point remains the same. These bullets were found laying in the dirt at 890 yards to be exact. And that is absolutely the farthest point at which this target can be shot.</span> </div></div>

What a *** claim, you definitely belong in CA.

The fact that there are a bunch of unidentified bullets relatively intact at your 890 yd spot means that 890 yds is absolutely the farthest point at which a specific and unrecovered caliber can be used?

Hmmm, ok, so those .22LR bullets I recovered from the mud at 50 yards intact must mean THAT is the absolute farthest point at which the target can be shot with .50 BMG rounds. I didn't actually recover any .50BMG, but I can imagine! Hells bells, at 4x that, 200 yds, the .50 BMG must not even bounce!

<span style="color: #3333FF">Even though it is oft assumed on the internet that .50 BMG still has a minor prescence at 200 yards, my California common sense and logic say otherwise!</span>


On a serious note, since you claim the bullet to be your .308 round (which i seriously doubt, the non-cannelured ones are far too small) and the bullet is obviously not fractured, why don't you weigh it? Even though it's slightly deformed, it should be in the ballpark of 175grs, if it's vastly off we know it's not one of the ones you just shot.

But chances are, the rest of us are right, and none of those slugs were ever a SMK .30cal 175gr.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

If your 175SMKs arent doing anything at that distance may I ask what load you are using?

Just so I know what not to use. Thank you.

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I suspect the .30 cal. bullets you found laying in the dirt came from an AK-47 (7.62X39). The ballistics of this cartridge deteriorate rather quickly after about 400 yards. To shoot this cartridge at 900 yards exceeds design capabilities by more than double. The bullets with a canelure are probably military surplus and the others may be reloads.

Just my thoughts.

 

[jbmillard]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

1) Those aren't Matchkings (MatchKings don't have a cannelure)

2) They probably went through a target at much closer range and bounced downrange.

3) I've shot 175s much farther than 900 yards. This proves nothing.

Brad

 

[Possum]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

890?
I thought they fell out of the sky at 800?

 

[Iggy]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Just wait until he hears about an 18" barrel throwing a 175 that far...

 

[Possum]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

18"... Impossible!

 

[300sniper]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iggy.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wait until he hears about an 18" barrel throwing a 175 that far... </div></div>

at 1500 yards, my 18" 308 with 175 smk's made it to the target point first and still left a decent splatter mark on the steel. sure, i did find some mostly intact bullets in the soft dirt near the target from the misses. even at another 260 yards further, i sure as hell wouldn't want to be hit by one.

 

[bobbyfairbanks]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Furthest I have seen a .308 hit something soft and kill it is 1200yds. I can't talk about passed that but I would guess it could go a look see further.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

my comment is not that you can't lob a 308 past a mile... it's what will it do when it gets there? Bullets laying on top of soft dirt, intact with nice rifling engraved... maybe gophers dug them up and laid them around the target area.

And no, some of these were definitely 175SMKs, as I reloaded thousands of them. And no, they did not go through another target, that's not how this range is laid out.

BTW I have found my 300 Lapua Scenars at a mile laying on the ground near the target, yet when I hit that steel I can hear it ring all the way back at my shooting spot, seconds later. So it still can be doing damage.

 

[northern shooter]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

 

[Possum]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Northern Shooter... That is hilarious!!!!

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">throwing a 175 SMK to 1000 yards, leave alone 1770 yards is an exercise in ammo wastage.
</div></div>

Guys have been shooting 1000 yards with the 175 matchking in F-Class competition for years and have no trouble shooting under 1.5 moa. What do they know that you don't?

 

[Whit]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I shoot mine to 1000yd with ease.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I am not claiming it can't be done. Especially at 1.5MOA.

It's difficult for me to shoot 1.5MOA with my platform (Rem 700 stock with a basic accurization, shooting prone) at my range, with it's canyon driven winds.

What I am saying is that I was surprised to see 175 SMK's plopped down around the 900 yard target, laying on top of the soft dirt, with just minor deformations due to impact with steel or bouncing off a rock or dirt. It suggests there is not alot of energy left at that distance. That is all. Certainly the incidence angle is steep at that distance.

 

[northern shooter]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

According to JBM a 175 SMK at 2600 fps at 700ASL 60 degrees has more engergy at 1000 yards then a 230gr 45 auto at the muzzle. At 900 it has more energy then a 180gr 357 magnum at the muzzle.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Yes we all know how to play with ballistic calculators. The point which you keep missing is that, despite the ballistics, high powered rifle bullets are found on top of soft dirt at this 900 yard distance. I think if you pointed a 223 muzzle at this same dirt, you wouldn't find the bullet plopped down on the dirt. So it's a head scratcher as to what's happening.

 

[Possum]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I've found 50bmg rounds that looked new with the exception of rifling scars...
All I can say is I've shot steel at long ranges with 308/762 projectiles and they don't just dent or yawl...
Beating a dead horse

 

[zac4551]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes we all know how to play with ballistic calculators. The point which you keep missing is that, despite the ballistics, high powered rifle bullets are found on top of soft dirt at this 900 yard distance. I think if you pointed a 223 muzzle at this same dirt, you wouldn't find the bullet plopped down on the dirt. So it's a head scratcher as to what's happening. </div></div>

The ballistics show the point you are missing, at that range a 308 round still delivers enough punch to kill. There is too many variables and what-ifs for you to say that its pointless to shoot at those ranges. For all you know those could be someones subsonic loads they lobbed down there for fun.

 

[zac4551]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And no, they did not go through another target, that's not how this range is laid out. </div></div>

Last I knew bullets do not skip in a straight line. They may of went through a target and ricocheted by the other target. Like I posted in my other post there are too many what-ifs to make any valid arguments on a few range bullets.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Zac, you are <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zac4551</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And no, they did not go through another target, that's not how this range is laid out. </div></div>

Last I knew bullets do not skip in a straight line. They may of went through a target and ricocheted by the other target. Like I posted in my other post there are too many what-ifs to make any valid arguments on a few range bullets. </div></div>

against that's not how this range is laid out. There is no nearby target for which rounds to ricochet and land here. Moreover, there were several more bullets laying around, not just these I picked up.

I did not say the bullets are not packing a punch. I said two things:
1) shooting 308 to 1770 is a waste of ammo. I stand by that. Go ahead and do it if you like. For me, waste of ammo for at the reason I don't have enough elevation in my scope to get past 1200 or so.
2) I could not come up with a good reason to find bullets laying on top of soft dirt, other than they missed the AR500 steel target and bounced off the dirt. All other reasonable explanations are welcome.

However, I also have observed many times in hitting this AR500 target that I get a good horizontal spray meaning that the bullet did disintegrate somewhat, which yes, does mean it's got lots of energy left. Clearly the bullet is falling at a pretty steep angle, between 500 and 1000 yards it's fallen almost 25 feet in trajectory. 1200 or so fps remaining at impact. Should have burrowed into dirt... maybe the rain washed away the top layers of dirt leaving the previously buried bullet exposed.

 

[CohenJ87]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

This is sooo entertaining!! Since the random rounds were found ontop of the dirt there is no way they could do any damage at that range. I am gonna stand at 950 and me and my buddy are gonna play catch with 175's!

 

[300sniper]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) shooting 308 to 1770 is a waste of ammo. I stand by that. Go ahead and do it if you like. For me, waste of ammo for at the reason I don't have enough elevation in my scope to get past 1200 or so.
</div></div>

i guess what you are really saying is any target shooting is just a waste of ammo? i mean if you aren't putting food on the table or defending your self or country, aren't you really just wasting ammo regardless if it's a 338 lm or 308 win? if you can make accurate and consistent hits on a target with a 308, why is that any more of a waste than doing the same thing with a larger caliber?

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Wow, yeah that is really what I am saying. Insightful. way to add to the conversation.

 

[300sniper]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, yeah that is really what I am saying. Insightful. way to add to the conversation. </div></div>

well define "wast of ammo" then as it relates to this topic. if you are shooting at a steel target at one mile <span style="font-weight: bold">and are hitting it</span>, is it a waste of ammo if it's done with a 308 but not with a 338? 'cause that's kind of what i've gotten from this thread.

i know it's a few hundred yards shy of a mile but out of curiosity, was i wasting ammo shooting an 18" barrel 308 at 1500 yards making a third round hit and several consecutive hits after i doped out the wind?

in your opinion, what is the minimum acceptable caliber for shooting steel targets at one mile?

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I have done a fair amount of training and shooting between 100 and 1800 yards. For me, a 308 at a mile with my Leupold 10x is silly and a waste of my handloads. For me, 338LM at a mile with my SB 25x is a difficult proposition but doable with some luck.

Best I've done (at 1770 yards) with 338LM is 3/5 hits, with a fourth just barely over the top edge. Same day, earlier, I would do like 1/5 or 2/5. The slightest increase/decrease in FPS, wind gust, will cause a miss at a mile target. I shoot with other trained rifler shooters and they also don't bother with the 308 and a mile. 300 Win Mag we've done to a mile but that is also pretty difficult to score reliably.

Doping out wind is easily said, but very difficult since where we shoot, wind is constantly changing. If you can 'dope out wind' for a 308 at a mile, then you are a far more genius shooter than I or any of our shooting group will ever be.

 

[ARS031]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

"Clearly the bullet is falling at a pretty steep angle, between 500 and 1000 yards"

- Clearly, you don't know what your talking about.

"However, I also have observed many times in hitting this AR500 target that I get a good horizontal spray meaning that the bullet did disintegrate somewhat, which yes, does mean it's got lots of energy left"

- You can spot bullet disintegration at distance with your 10x scope, but you say shooting a target at a mile is silly?

"I have done a fair amount of training and shooting between 100 and 1800 yards"

- I don't know your credentials, but judging from your opinions, you probably have none. Just because you do something on weekends in your spare time, doesn't mean your "training".

"If you can 'dope out wind' for a 308 at a mile, then you are a far more genius shooter than I or any of our shooting group will ever be."

- This is the only positive thing you've said. At least you can recognize that.

I have 15 posts here, Ive never gotten involved in one of these little e-fights.. but honestly, go read some books, actually learn about shooting, and from the experiences of others and stop thinking that because you and your buddies cant do it well, that it cant be done well.

You've been waffling your way through this for a while now and its time to cut your losses and put your effort into something constructive.

Just the humble opinion of a guy who typically sits back and watches the idiots dig themselves deeper.

 

[COTTON_00]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

I have a personal range rite at my house and i have had many of the 168 smk on the ground around 850 to 1100 yards it may be that they were just under the suface and the rain brought them to the top not sure.it maybe that they are tumbling.but i do not seem to have a prob with the 175 smk just thought i would add.

 

[blksno]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Clearly the bullet is falling at a pretty steep angle, between 500 and 1000 yards"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARS031</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Clearly, you don't know what your talking about.
</div></div></div></div>

I'm gonna concur with ARS031 here. Might want to double check the math on that one.
What do you consider "pretty steep"?
5°
10°
15°

We're not lobbing mortars here.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

Cotton, yes that is what I speculated earlier.

cbass, plot out the trajectory with your fav ballistic software and you'll see for yourself.

ars, keep limiting your posts, you're not smart enough to 'efight'.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

My 308 load drops 8" between 990 and 1000 yards.

That's a downward angle of 1.27 degrees.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: so you want to shoot 308 to a mile?

On the closer end. 500-510 yards, 3" drop, 0.48 degrees.