SOCOM wants a new PDW

[MSTN]

You can read about the requirements here:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...&id=09f78d7e84c745853607ecc571c0003c&_cview=1

It sounds to me like they really just want a slightly modified SIG MCX SBR upper (plus folding stock assembly) in .300 BLK with a 2.5" shorter barrel, and a 0.5" shorter pistol grip, that will weigh in at 0.5 LB less than their current SBR:

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mcx-sbr.html

Can SIG MCX's in .300 BLK achieve the (T) level of accuracy level of accuracy required?

 

[346ci]

A 300blk for a PDW, for the Military, lol.

 

[MSTN]

It makes excellent sense to me.

Current use of the .300 BLK is more widespread than one might imagine.

 

[346ci]

Yeah, the hype is up there.

A 12.5" 5.56 shooting 69-77gr would be cost effective, a 12.5" 6.8 or 6.5g would be the best choice for putting bad guys down. However, having seen what goes on the contracting side, the 'Mil doesn't always make the best choice.

 

[plong]

The spec sure appears to be written with the MCX in mind...

 

[bigjake83]

You'd think they would just go for a KAC SR30 9.5 or 11.5 300 BO Complete Upper....

 

[LRRPF52]

Yeah, the hype is up there.

A 12.5" 5.56 shooting 69-77gr would be cost effective, a 12.5" 6.8 or 6.5g would be the best choice for putting bad guys down. However, having seen what goes on the contracting side, the 'Mil doesn't always make the best choice.

A lot of people who don't understand or know about some of the systems in the inventory try to see this from a civilian perspective, and get it so wrong.

Keep in mind that just within SF, each Battalion had a certain number of MP5SDs for different missions, many of which just need a low profile PDW for plainclothes or uniformed work doing boring tasks in advance of other Teams deploying to certain places. It could just be an advanced party doing coordination with a host nation, and they don't want to be lugging around M4s everywhere, but the threat might just be enough to warrant carbines over pistols. Think FID missions with Thais, Philippines, Africa, certain ME places, and even Eastern Europe.

Another is SR. There are a lot of reasons why you can imagine where suppressed/subsonic might come into play doing SR.

It also adds a capability of breech elements dealing with threats quietly on raids, without blowing the mission prematurely when everyone is getting into position still, and isn't ready for execution.

Using a common receiver or controls for the PDW similar to M4A1 also makes sense.

Other than that, it isn't something for widespread adoption or particular validation of the cartridge from what I'm seeing. It is more of a niche capability that has been in the system with MP5SD, that needs replacement and also offers additional benefits that the MP5 doesn't have.

 

[pmclaine]

Is Sig trying to capture the US mil weapons supply line?

Hopefully it results in some upgrades to their training academy facilities in NH. They are already nice but better is more nice and I'm taking two classes this spring.

 

[MSTN]

It appears that the actual SIG MCX variant "prototype" already exists and has been in use by certain elements within DOD for some time.

So, the outcome is a fait accompli.

I'm glad the guys will be getting what they want.

 

[plong]

It appears that the actual SIG MCX variant "prototype" already exists and has been in use by certain elements within DOD for some time.

So, the outcome is a fait accompli.

I'm glad the guys will be getting what they want.

You mean the spec was written with a predetermined outcome in mind ...

 

[BooneGA]

A lot of people who don't understand or know about some of the systems in the inventory try to see this from a civilian perspective, and get it so wrong.

Keep in mind that just within SF, each Battalion had a certain number of MP5SDs for different missions, many of which just need a low profile PDW for plainclothes or uniformed work doing boring tasks in advance of other Teams deploying to certain places. It could just be an advanced party doing coordination with a host nation, and they don't want to be lugging around M4s everywhere, but the threat might just be enough to warrant carbines over pistols. Think FID missions with Thais, Philippines, Africa, certain ME places, and even Eastern Europe.

I think your impression of armaments in an SF BN is a bit off. More accurately, each Team has a random assortment of weapons outside of the MTOE with no rhyme or reason given to why other than they were acquired and added to the property book at some point. I havent ever seen an MP5-SD in a Company arms room, but we do have UMP45s with suppressors (with no way to get .45 ammo, ever. Period. Also on that note, I havent seen a single round of MK262 over the past three combat deployments). Other weapons are available to be drawn but Ive never heard of anyone above the team level considering certain weapons for particular missions.

Ive seen 300BLK guns (not at my unit) but only very rarely. I think this is novel concept, but truly won't have any appreciable effect on teams being able to complete their missions.

Rick

 

[blcouch]

IIRC, the infamous Honey Badger was built at the request of "spec ops" to replace the MP5SD, according to Brittingham. I think the weight specs were even correct, at least with the 'new' one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fdkay]

.300 blk makes perfect sense here.
No need to worry about different magazines, just swap out your upper and load up your mags.
It is a VERY effective CQB cartridge

 

[Kevin Brittingham]

Yeah, the hype is up there.

A 12.5" 5.56 shooting 69-77gr would be cost effective, a 12.5" 6.8 or 6.5g would be the best choice for putting bad guys down. However, having seen what goes on the contracting side, the 'Mil doesn't always make the best choice.

Subsonic?

 

[manscout]

Wow. As i can tell no one actually read the requirements for the contract.... It specifically requires .300 blk...

 

[346ci]

Subsonic?

No way I'd put my life on the line with a sub round. If the mission is to kill bad guys, I want full power loads. If the mission were taking out hogs and yotes, sure you can chance one of those running off.

 

[jda2631]

No way I'd put my life on the line with a sub round. If the mission is to kill bad guys, I want full power loads. If the mission were taking out hogs and yotes, sure you can chance one of those running off.

So no one should have ever used an MP5 or any of its variations? 300 blk with 220 gr subsonic has more energy than any full power/speed 9mm load and far more than the 9mm subs due to the increase in bullet weight. But then if the need arises you can swap mags to full power 300 blk and have vastly more power than any 9mm.

 

[BurnOut]

No way I'd put my life on the line with a sub round. If the mission is to kill bad guys, I want full power loads. If the mission were taking out hogs and yotes, sure you can chance one of those running off.

It's about the same ballistic energy as .45 ACP; I imagine the average engagement distance isn't too far off of pistol distances for that sort of use case.

Or I could be full of shit, you decide.

 

[346ci]

It's about the same ballistic energy as .45 ACP; I imagine the average engagement distance isn't too far off of pistol distances for that sort of use case.

Or I could be full of shit, you decide.

Right, so why not use a suppressed .45 for the secret squirrel stuff and transition to a rifle if needed.

 

[346ci]

So no one should have ever used an MP5 or any of its variations? 300 blk with 220 gr subsonic has more energy than any full power/speed 9mm load and far more than the 9mm subs due to the increase in bullet weight. But then if the need arises you can swap mags to full power 300 blk and have vastly more power than any 9mm.

I would not want a MP5 with subs or supers in place of a 5.56 rifle. Why worry about swapping mags so you can take out your target?

 

[BurnOut]

Right, so why not use a suppressed .45 for the secret squirrel stuff and transition to a rifle if needed.

Magazine capacity and aimed burst/full auto fire?

 

[jda2631]

I would not want a MP5 with subs or supers in place of a 5.56 rifle. Why worry about swapping mags so you can take out your target?

Noise and not having to carry 2 guns. Any gun shot suppressed but super sonic is still pretty loud when you're trying to be invisible. So with a blackout, you can shoot subs for when you need to be as quiet as possible but then still have full power of a rifle with just a mag change instead of having to have a 2nd gun. And the blackout cycles great with subs and supers without changing anything. You may be able to shoot 556 sub sonic and the gun cycle, I'm not sure about this? But you'd be shooting a really tiny bullet really slowly.

 

[strikeeagle1]

^^^This.

 

[hlee]

And, the 45acp will always be subsonic, so you don't have the choice to shoot substantially "hotter" loads.

 

[LRRPF52]

I think your impression of armaments in an SF BN is a bit off. More accurately, each Team has a random assortment of weapons outside of the MTOE with no rhyme or reason given to why other than they were acquired and added to the property book at some point. I havent ever seen an MP5-SD in a Company arms room, but we do have UMP45s with suppressors (with no way to get .45 ammo, ever. Period. Also on that note, I havent seen a single round of MK262 over the past three combat deployments). Other weapons are available to be drawn but Ive never heard of anyone above the team level considering certain weapons for particular missions.

Ive seen 300BLK guns (not at my unit) but only very rarely. I think this is novel concept, but truly won't have any appreciable effect on teams being able to complete their missions.

Rick

We had MP5SDs as special items of request for SR in the late 1990s as part of a certain CJSOTF in one of the theaters. I remember it specifically during isolation, as well as PZ posture with the Teams that got them before we had a chance to request them. I carried a suppressed M4A1 instead. One of the teams we were in PZ posture with had one before we boarded MH-47s.

Buddies of mine in other Groups had MP5A3 in their inventory, and used them for ADVON and other meetings. There's actually footage of one of them doing a tribal leader sit-down in the earlier days of OEF. Understanding that there are wide variations in small arms available at different times within SOCOM, especially over the last 16 years, one can see that there is no hard and fast rule.

My basic position on 300 BLK remains the same. I may be totally wrong, but everything I'm seeing is that it is to replace some of these weapons while retaining the discreet capabilities appropriate for ADVON, suppressed capabilities for SR, and local security for various sub units when staging a raid.