Solid beginner's bolt gun for learning shoot long range?

[Upstate43]

Barrel life is much longer on .308. A good .308 barrel won't see a significant accuracy degradation for at least several thousand rounds, likely more.

Basic .308 ammo is much cheaper (a simple comparison on ammo seek will demonstrate that). Match-grade ammo for both will cost about the same, but with .308 you at least have the option of saving money by using cheaper ammo for practice.

There are plenty of good .308 rifles (new and used) that can be had for a steal on gunbroker.

6.5CM offers lower recoil (not that .308's recoil is horrible by comparison, especially with a good brake). And it offers loads with better BC's. In theory, this means you'll have an easier time acquiring targets and cheating the wind with the 6.5 CM. In practice, I don't know how much of a difference it will make for the average shooter, or a beginner one.

To put it another way: you, as a new shooter, are not necessarily going to see exponentially better performance just because you're shooting 6.5CM. Good fundamentals and practice will be the two biggest factors which determine your progress early on. If/when you get to the point where you're competing at high-level PRS type events, then the advantages of 6.5CM might become more relevant.

Get what you can afford. The .308 ammo and platforms are easier to get into if money is tight.

 

[scudzuki]

LOL, I was having this "223 getting stuck in Lee die" problem for many years (I'm stubborn) , it's in the trash now and I'm ordering a Dillon carbide sizer soon to eliminate that problem. Of course if I stopped picking up that free brass on the ground....

Recently trying out 223AI. Yuh know those 88 grain Hornady's/.545BC at 2800 fps do pretty good in the wind. Only 24.5 grains of Varget, medium load, very light recoil and that 981Y 15" plate needs a paint job real bad now.

I've resized tens of thousands (not an exaggeration, I can show you the 25k of reloads I have stockpiled) of .223 cases including probably half range pickup brass in Lee resizing dies and never has a single case gotten stuck. I ALWAYS use Hornady 1 shot lube applied with a few quick spray passes on 50 cases stood up in a reloading tray. It's so fucking easy I just shake my head when I read about all the trouble reloaders will go to applying other lubes via various painstakingly slow methods (or 1 Shot lube by spraying in a bag) and still getting stuck cases or dents. I get around 1000 .223 cases from a $7 can of lube. Also resize .260, 6.5CM, 6x47, and .308 (almost entirely Lapua brass) using the same lube and application method (although the bigger the case the heavier the spray passes) and never stick cases.

 

[Filthy fish]

https://gun.deals/


Here is how to find the cheapest gun on the internet

 

[MarinePMI]

Barrel life is much longer on .308. A good .308 barrel won't see a significant accuracy degradation for at least several thousand rounds, likely more.

Basic .308 ammo is much cheaper (a simple comparison on ammo seek will demonstrate that). Match-grade ammo for both will cost about the same, but with .308 you at least have the option of saving money by using cheaper ammo for practice.

There are plenty of good .308 rifles (new and used) that can be had for a steal on gunbroker.

6.5CM offers lower recoil (not that .308's recoil is horrible by comparison, especially with a good brake). And it offers loads with better BC's. In theory, this means you'll have an easier time acquiring targets and cheating the wind with the 6.5 CM. In practice, I don't know how much of a difference it will make for the average shooter, or a beginner one.

To put it another way: you, as a new shooter, are not necessarily going to see exponentially better performance just because you're shooting 6.5CM. Good fundamentals and practice will be the two biggest factors which determine your progress early on. If/when you get to the point where you're competing at high-level PRS type events, then the advantages of 6.5CM might become more relevant.

Get what you can afford. The .308 ammo and platforms are easier to get into if money is tight.

I get what you're saying, but there's a reason .308 is in it's own class these days. If you want cheap practice in the wind, buy a .223. If you want to shoot long range (IMHO) just skip the extra cost, and get a 6.5. Barrels are like tires, they need to be replaced after time.

 

[steve123]

I've resized tens of thousands (not an exaggeration, I can show you the 25k of reloads I have stockpiled) of .223 cases including probably half range pickup brass in Lee resizing dies and never has a single case gotten stuck. I ALWAYS use Hornady 1 shot lube applied with a few quick spray passes on 50 cases stood up in a reloading tray. It's so fucking easy I just shake my head when I read about all the trouble reloaders will go to applying other lubes via various painstakingly slow methods (or 1 Shot lube by spraying in a bag) and still getting stuck cases or dents. I get around 1000 .223 cases from a $7 can of lube. Also resize .260, 6.5CM, 6x47, and .308 (almost entirely Lapua brass) using the same lube and application method (although the bigger the case the heavier the spray passes) and never stick cases.

Yeah, it's this one particular die, I don't think it was heat treated right. The problem has always been a PITA, just when I think I'm safe it kicks my ass, lol. I've gotten cases stuck in other dies before but that's rare and I didn't have enough 1 shot on them back when I used to use it.

Last month I made sure I put an excess amount of Imperial die wax on a nickel plated 223 case and it still got stuck, I was both surprised and disgusted, that was the last straw.

I did buy a 223AI Lee die set recently, it has worked great but it just so happens it's a close fit to that chamber so it barely sizes the case, it's just right actually. I seriously doubt I'll ever get a stuck case but I bought new brass to be used in this rifle only. This is the first time I've had a production die this close, in 50 years.

Most of the rest of my dies are custom and I never have problems with them because they barely size those cases too.

Well, I'm glad you haven't had the problems I did.

 

[Dai Bando]

New to bolt guns and wanna see if long range is your thing?

You have 300 yards available on your own place?

Hell, buy an Anschutz 54 second hand, DIP rail, Burris XTR Sig rings, SWFA 10x MQ and a whole bunch of whatever ammo it likes.

By the time your good at ringing a 3" steel at 300, center fire shit will be easy!

 

[Upstate43]

I get what you're saying, but there's a reason .308 is in it's own class these days. If you want cheap practice in the wind, buy a .223. If you want to shoot long range (IMHO) just skip the extra cost, and get a 6.5. Barrels are like tires, they need to be replaced after time.

No, I don't think you get what I'm saying.

For the top-level competitors, the advantages of 6.5CM might be worth it.
For the average shooter, choosing 6.5CM over .308 will not make or break their performance. I've seen very good shooters use .308 and dominate local competitions where most everyone else was using 6.5CM.

And barrels are like tires, but .308 barrels are like A/T tires (they'll last longer) whereas 6.5CM barrels are like F1 tires (they need to be changed more frequently).

A new shooter like the OP is better off spending money on practice and ammo rather than barrels and more expensive ammo.

 

[Rondogg]

You may want to update your knowledge...Lapua brass for CM has been out a while now...

Hornady over priced junk??? Probably need to update your knowledge on that also. Maybe you got a bad batch, but Hornady outsells the rest for most reloaders.

 

[MarinePMI]

No, I don't think you get what I'm saying.

For the top-level competitors, the advantages of 6.5CM might be worth it.
For the average shooter, choosing 6.5CM over .308 will not make or break their performance. I've seen very good shooters use .308 and dominate local competitions where most everyone else was using 6.5CM.

And barrels are like tires, but .308 barrels are like A/T tires (they'll last longer) whereas 6.5CM barrels are like F1 tires (they need to be changed more frequently).

A new shooter like the OP is better off spending money on practice and ammo rather than barrels and more expensive ammo.

Look, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this; you favor .308, I get it. That being said, the more forgiving cartridge for wind calls is the 6.5 CM. There's no arguing that, the math doesn't lie. And we all know that the thing that most shooters (new and old) screw up is wind calls.

As to the A/T versus F1 tires...PRS is a race isn't it?

But, please, continue on...

 

[MarinePMI]

Hornady over priced junk??? Probably need to update your knowledge on that also. Maybe you got a bad batch, but Hornady outsells the rest for most reloaders.

Not sure what this means, but perhaps you should read my posts more carefully. I use Hornady brass.

The point was, that Lapua brass has been available a while now (which Old308 stated "was soon to follow" as far as being available).

Perhaps next time when you quote someone, you should read it more closely (especially with being so new here).

 

[rookie7]

Buying guns based on "might be able to do", vs. what you actually do with them, always leads to dissatisfaction ime. It sounds like most of your shooting will actually be at less then 300 yards. You asked for what you should learn on, not a do everything rifle, which often does nothing except sit in the safe. just my opinion, having been down this road many times.

After being on the net for over a few decades the statement above ranks in the top 5 of the wisest I have ever read.

Listen to his advice!

 

[308pirate]

Still looking at either a .308 or 6.5. I think I've spent too much time struggling to get .223 cases unstuck from my sizing die and it's causing me to subconsciously hate it lol.

You seem hell bent on finding any and all excuses to avoid the best advice you've been given, which is to start with a 223 bolt rifle with a useful barrel (1 in 8 or faster)

If the trouble you have with 223 is stuck cases in your sizing die then the rational answer is to either improve your case lubrication, get a different brand of die, or do both. The rational answer is not "I hate 223 Remington"

 

[Upstate43]

Look, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this; you favor .308, I get it. That being said, the more forgiving cartridge for wind calls is the 6.5 CM. There's no arguing that, the math doesn't lie. And we all know that the thing that most shooters (new and old) screw up is wind calls.

You're absolutely right. But this mentality that new shooters need 6.5CM in order to do well is where I disagree. Unless they practice and learn the proper fundamentals, they're going to get their butts kicked regardless of which cartridge they choose. I'd almost argue it's a moot point until a shooter has progressed to the upper echelons of competition shooting.

As to the A/T versus F1 tires...PRS is a race isn't it?

PRS is a race to get accurate shots off. It's not a race to wear out your barrel, unless you feel like spending extra money. A sponsored shooter may not care about such issues. A novice or casual shooter likely will.

 

[MarinePMI]

PRS is a race to get accurate shots off. It's not a race to wear out your barrel, unless you feel like spending extra money. A sponsored shooter may not care about such issues. A novice or casual shooter likely will.

Exactly my point. If you go to F1 race, you don't show up in a Ford F-150 with A/T tires. If you run PRS Open class you're either competitive or not (.308 is NOT competitive, hence it's own "tactical" class, which also includes .223). So, if you want to be in a race, and competitive, you're going to go through barrels.

But let's be honest here, how many casual shooters go through 3000rds in a year (roughly the life of a 6.5CM barrel)? And if you are (usually due to PRS competitions), then you just have to accept that barrels wear out sooner, just like the softer F1 tires.

You're statement "PRS is a race to get accurate shots off." is exactly what wears barrels out...even in a .308. So if both barrels will have accelerated barrel wear, why would you hamstring yourself with a less competitive cartridge? If you shooting that much, 3000 vs 5000rds ain't going to mean shit. You're going to be replacing barrels regardless. There's no free lunch.

And BTW, the OP reloads. Go look at the price difference in match bullets between .308 and 6.5...again, no free lunch. 6.5 costs less to reload, but you burn the barrel quicker. .308 costs more to reload for, but the barrel wears out slower. It's a wash. Hence, go with the cartridge that has the performance edge. You're going to pay either way.

 

[steve123]

I can only surmise that the 308 shooters live in places where the wind doesn't blow much and the distances are medium. Even so the recoil with heavy bullets and warm loads is getting up there, although a brake helps. I've seen two of the highest regarded firearms instructors in the world shooting factory 175 have a horrible time connecting in AZ winds. This was in field conditions lacking good wind flags. They call wind for a living basically, BTW. I should mention that one of these guys just won a victory in a specialized 1000Y benchrest match, how's that for being a good wind caller!!! I was just a nobody with a 6x47L and getting almost twice the amount of hits, why???, my 6 had almost half the wind drift.

I'm all for a challenge and extra barrel life but I'll take the higher hit percentage of the 6.5 if I had to make one choice - wind.

Like DB mentioned, using a 22rf for your property to 300Y, it's cheap to shoot even with match ammo, and a fun challenge. Low noise, almost no recoil, lot's of elevation dialed, just a great way to get the fundamentals of riflery down. If it's windy then get out a bigger gun.

I have this nifty 5mmFBI wildcat cartridge, it's a 20 caliber based off 221 fireball but improved. Little 32 grainers at 3675 fps with 17.7 grains of powder. It's proven to be the perfect 200-500Y plinker in medium winds. I'll probably get ridiculous barrel life because this is a light load. People literally laugh when they shoot it and hit steel so far away.

 

[OLD308]

Hornady over priced junk??? Probably need to update your knowledge on that also. Maybe you got a bad batch, but Hornady outsells the rest for most reloaders.

No need in updating my experience with Horniday brass. I have it on hand as someone always gets suckered into buying it. Primer pockets become loose far faster than Lapua with my loads. That’s my experience and everyone I know that shoots and reloads. Glad you found some that work with in your loaded pressures and rounds fired. As far as Hornady out selling the rest, that means nothing. Millions of people buy shake weights, Chia pets, and weather rocks every year.

 

[CharlieNC]

Seven years ago I decided I wanted to try learning to shoot prone. Uncertain whether I would like and stick with it, I bought a Savage Hog Hunter in 223 for $435 and immediately replaced the stock. Years and several ballistically superior rifles later it is still my favorite to shoot out to 1000yd. While the factory 20in barrel shot ok, it was replaced with a 22in Brux that is very accurate. Vertical dope and poi control is a given; yes wind can be challenging but honestly shooting it to 1000yd is otherwise boring. I shoot a custom 223 in mid range Ftr, very competitively to 600yd. Other than hunting if I could have only one rifle for targets it would be a 223. In your case it would be an excellent low cost starter until you determine a longer term focus; then its still an excellent trainer.

 

[Yellowhammer]

Like I mentioned I got really interested in jumping into getting a precision type gun and then life got busy for a couple of weeks. Starting next week things should get back to normal. Ultimately this idea was born of the fact that: 1. I find myself with a nice scope and no rifle to put it on & 2. For all the guns I do have I do not have a precision type setup in the collection.

Some clarifying thoughts:

-I have lots of guns but the reality is I don't shoot a whole lot. Spread across all calibers I'm probably shooting 1000 rounds a year. Barrel wear isn't really on my radar. Like everybody else I'm busy and don't get as much range time as I'd like. When I do it's rushed, people calling, worried about getting home to take care of whatever the crisis of the day is.

-My little 40 acre plot isn't set up great to shoot long range while meeting my ultra-safety conscious personal standards. Most of my shooting is 100m down into a gully where I've hung a variety of steel targets. I think I might be able to get a 300m lane setup but it's going to take building a berm. It's on "the list" of stuff to do.

-Locally we have the CMP marksmanship park which stretches out to 600m so there is some opportunity there.

-While I wouldn't call myself an expert shooter I'm not really new at it either. I shot competitive small bore in my younger years, grew up on irons, routinely shot expert with the M-16A2/Irons in the Army etc. so the fundamentals of marksmanship aren't terribly foreign to me.

So my thoughts would be:

.223: I've got a bunch of them. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head without going to look. If I'm looking for something different than what I already have then .223 isn't it.

Which brings us to .308 & 6.5CM: Honestly, the majority of what I'm hearing here and elsewhere is 6.5CM is the way to go because, if someone starts getting into PRS seriously, they are going to end up at 6.5CM anyways.

So I think I've figured out whenever I get a bolt gun what I want (20 inch Tikka CTR) in what flavor (6.5CM). Now I have to avoid getting distracted by something else shiny (dual tube nvgs or a new 6.5g upper) and buy myself one. A couple weeks ago the SiCO BOGO deal got me at the last second and now I've got 2 new suppressors waiting on stamps.

 

[Bradu]

Why are we worried about barrel life on a 6.5 creedmoor? If you have the money to buy or reload 3000 rounds then a $500-600 barrel is pretty insignificant. It's not like it's a 28 nosler or 300 norma that we are talking about. I would rather see a newer shooter go with a 6.5 over a 308 for a better hit ratio at longer distances. A guy making more hits is likely to want to keep shooting vs less hits and getting discouraged.

If you figure 3k rounds on a 6.5 and a $600 barrel then you at 20 cents a round for barrel life. 5k rounds of 308 at the same barrel cost is 12 cents a round.

 

[MarinePMI]

Why are we worried about barrel life on a 6.5 creedmoor?

Because 1985 is calling, and they want their .308's back.

 

[tna9001]

What's the benefit of a 308 over a 6.5 for someone buying their first bolt gun?

You get to buy another rifle, one chambered in 6.5CM

 

[Bradu]

Because 1985 is calling, and they want their .308's back.

I like my 308s and will always have one but if I had to choose I would go .260 every time. I know when the wind is going to strong that it's time to leave the 308 in the safe lol

 

[SLG]

While its awesome how fast gun enthusiasts will fight with each other (sarcasm), I wonder if some of you might have missed the part where the OP said he has less than 300 yards at home, and only 600 at the range he goes to. None of that qualifies as long range. If you can't make hits at those distances, with a 223, then wind calling is not your only issue. I've missed shots with a 16" 308 in competition, at as short a range as 400 something. Winds were a measured 30- 45mph. Not the same thing by a long shot.

Now, if the OP thinks he's going to hunt with this gun, then 223 might not be ideal (as he said), but it is still the better choice for learning to shoot. Even in the wind. Especially in the wind.

 

[Bradu]

While its awesome how fast gun enthusiasts will fight with each other (sarcasm), I wonder if some of you might have missed the part where the OP said he has less than 300 yards at home, and only 600 at the range he goes to. None of that qualifies as long range. If you can't make hits at those distances, with a 223, then wind calling is not your only issue. I've missed shots with a 16" 308 in competition, at as short a range as 400 something. Winds were a measured 30- 45mph. Not the same thing by a long shot.

Now, if the OP thinks he's going to hunt with this gun, then 223 might not be ideal (as he said), but it is still the better choice for learning to shoot. Even in the wind. Especially in the wind.

That's kind of what I"m thinking. I've shot more .223 than I can count, of course none were out of a bolt gun. A 6.5 or .308 would give me options if I ever did want to shoot further. Plus a 6.5 can reach out there and still have enough juice to kill something if I ever luck out and get to go hunting out west or something.

Maybe you missed this part, I went ahead and quoted it for you ?

 

[Upstate43]

This is getting kind of petty here.

Exactly my point. If you go to F1 race, you don't show up in a Ford F-150 with A/T tires. If you run PRS Open class you're either competitive or not (.308 is NOT competitive, hence it's own "tactical" class, which also includes .223). So, if you want to be in a race, and competitive, you're going to go through barrels.

All my comparison was doing was illustrating that .308 barrels are longer-lived relative to 6.5CM. Either one is well-suited to PRS, assuming good construction. The 6.5 CM barrel wears quicker because of the nature of 6.5CM loading. Professional or otherwise competitive shooters may be okay with that tradeoff. For someone who is new, its not so important. I'd advise someone to spend money on instruction and ammo rather than getting the latest and greatest rifle/cartridge and more frequent barrel changes.

Also, .308 is included in the "tactical" class because its a standard military/LEO cartridge. It can still participate in the open classes.

But let's be honest here, how many casual shooters go through 3000rds in a year (roughly the life of a 6.5CM barrel)?

You're statement "PRS is a race to get accurate shots off." is exactly what wears barrels out...even in a .308. So if both barrels will have accelerated barrel wear, why would you hamstring yourself with a less competitive cartridge? If you shooting that much, 3000 vs 5000rds ain't going to mean shit. You're going to be replacing barrels regardless. There's no free lunch.

Honestly, if the shooter is engaged in 2-3 classes/competitions per year and engages in regular practice, that 2k-3k mark can be hit relatively quickly. And yes, a .308 with that type of usage will still wear out quickly as well, but the shooter will have an extra 2k-3k rounds worth of barrel life over the 6.5CM....that equates to more practice time before the shooter has to spend money on a new barrel.

So let's stop pretending that the two cartridges are the same in that regard.

And BTW, the OP reloads. Go look at the price difference in match bullets between .308 and 6.5...again, no free lunch. 6.5 costs less to reload, but you burn the barrel quicker. .308 costs more to reload for, but the barrel wears out slower. It's a wash. Hence, go with the cartridge that has the performance edge. You're going to pay either way.

Again, this is getting petty. A box of 100 match-grade .308 bullets is usually priced to within $1-$2 of what a box of 100 match-grade 6.5CM bullets are going for. There isn't much of a difference there.

However, there is a large difference in the price of basic (non-match) .308 and 6.5CM ammo. You can save a lot of money by practicing with basic .308 ammo.

 

[MarinePMI]

And when I got into LR shooting, I had no idea there was a 1/2 mile range within 30 mins of my house...I had/have a .308. Shot it once at distance...went home and bought Pac-Nor pre-fit 6.5CM barrel. I think at the time I was one of the few (if not the only) 6.5CM shooters around here.

Bottom line is, you don't know, what you don't know. He could find a range that has some distance. Let's face it, this is the fastest growing shooting sport right now. People will find a way to shoot long range. Local farmer/rancher, concrete quarry, BLM land, with discreetly planted t-posts.

Its like the old yarn about parachutes and guns. "Guns are like parachutes. Rarely will you every really need one, but when you do need one, nothing else will quite do."

Same goes for being under gunned...

 

[MarinePMI]

This is getting kind of petty here.



All my comparison was doing was illustrating that .308 barrels are longer-lived relative to 6.5CM. Either one is well-suited to PRS, assuming good construction. The 6.5 CM barrel wears quicker because of the nature of 6.5CM loading. Professional or otherwise competitive shooters may be okay with that tradeoff. For someone who is new, its a factor worth heavy consideration.

Also, .308 is included in the "tactical" class because its a standard military/LEO cartridge. It can still participate in the open classes.



Honestly, if the shooter is engaged in 2-3 classes/competitions per year and engages in regular practice, that 2k-3k mark can be hit relatively quickly. And yes, a .308 with that type of usage will still wear out quickly as well, but the shooter will have an extra 2k-3k rounds worth of barrel life over the 6.5CM....that equates to more practice time before the shooter has to spend money on a new barrel.

So let's stop pretending that the two cartridges are the same in that regard.



Again, this is getting petty. A box of 100 match-grade .308 bullets is usually priced to within $1-$2 of what a box of 100 match-grade 6.5CM bullets are going for. There isn't much of a difference there.

However, there is a large difference in the price of basic (non-match) .308 and 6.5CM ammo. You can save a lot of money by practicing with basic .308 ammo.

Petty? LOL! You're the one that can't just let it go. LOL! smhg...I'm out.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

Why not go 6mm creedmoor over 6.5? It should have less recoil and plenty of velocity, no?

 

[MarinePMI]

buh...buh...buh...barrel life...

(LOL! Okay, now I'm really out.)

 

[Upstate43]

Petty? LOL! You're the one that can't just let it go. LOL! smhg...I'm out.

Your counterpoints really don't hold up to scrutiny in my opinion. Saying that the barrel life and ammo cost issues are a wash between the two just isn't accurate.

There is this trending mentality within the firearms community, which you're reinforcing, that a new shooter needs to spend the money on the latest and greatest gear and cartridges in order to make progress. The OP doesn't need 6.5cm; he can learn everything that he needs to learn on a .308 rifle and save some money while he's at it. IF/when he gets in the ultra-competitive levels of PRS, 6.5cm would make sense, but I don't think he is anywhere close to that stage in his marksmanship.

 

[Bradu]

Your counterpoints really don't hold up to scrutiny in my opinion. Saying that the barrel life and ammo cost issues are a wash between the two just isn't accurate.

There is this trending mentality within the firearms community, which you're reinforcing, that a new shooter needs to spend the money on the latest and greatest gear and cartridges in order to make progress. The OP doesn't need 6.5cm; he can learn everything that he needs to learn on a .308 rifle and save some money while he's at it. IF/when he gets in the ultra-competitive levels of PRS, 6.5cm would make sense, but I don't think he is anywhere close to that stage in his marksmanship.

You know a lot of people recommend inexperienced shooters to go to a match to learn. It's the quickest way to figure out what works and to figure out what gear is needed. Good to see you know what's best for him hahaha

 

[avastcosmicarena]

buh...buh...buh...barrel life...

(LOL! Okay, now I'm really out.)

How does .224 Valkyrie compare when it comes to barrel life? If it's inside 800 yards, it shouldn't really be at any disadvantage.

 

[MarinePMI]

I have no idea. It's a relatively new cartridge, so data is limited. I try and stick to what I have experience with, when making comments.

Lowlight and other's have been shooting it. Might be worth starting a thread on that subject, so as to garner more attention/responses than leaving it buried in this thread.

 

[MarinePMI]

Your counterpoints really don't hold up to scrutiny in my opinion. Saying that the barrel life and ammo cost issues are a wash between the two just isn't accurate.

Hey, if that makes you feel more confident in your opinion...go for it.

There is this trending mentality within the firearms community, which you're reinforcing, that a new shooter needs to spend the money on the latest and greatest gear and cartridges in order to make progress.

That's not a trending mentality, that's just the firearms community in general. At least it's what I've seen over the last 30 odd years. Actually, it applies to most commodities. If not, we'd still be all driving Model T Fords, instead of the all the new 4 cylinder, dual scroll turbos with Car Play and on board Navigation.

But again, if that makes you feel more comfortable in your logic and reasoning that it's just a trend...<shrug>

 

[308pirate]

Your counterpoints really don't hold up to scrutiny in my opinion. Saying that the barrel life and ammo cost issues are a wash between the two just isn't accurate.

There is this trending mentality within the firearms community, which you're reinforcing, that a new shooter needs to spend the money on the latest and greatest gear and cartridges in order to make progress. The OP doesn't need 6.5cm; he can learn everything that he needs to learn on a .308 rifle and save some money while he's at it. IF/when he gets in the ultra-competitive levels of PRS, 6.5cm would make sense, but I don't think he is anywhere close to that stage in his marksmanship.

1. The 6.5 Creedmoor was released by Hornady in 2007. Hardly the "latest and greatest"
2. Shooting precision rifles is not a cheap sport. If a barrel that dies in 3000 rounds instead of 5000 is a financial deal breaker, this may not be the sport for you.

 

[SLG]

Maybe you missed this part, I went ahead and quoted it for you ?

Seriously dude? I actually mentioned that part in my post. Right up above where you added his quote. If you're having trouble finding it, Its the part in english.

Furthermore, I wasn't being snarky, I was trying to steer the conversation back out of the ditch. Here, I'm being snarky. For fun. No offense meant, especially if english isn't actually your first language.

Look, ultimately, the OP is going to buy what he wants, and he really probably isn't going to care what we say, unless it confirms his choice for him. My whole point was and has been that buying a gun based on what "might" get done, is a good way to buy a safe filler. Further, the "best" gun for learning to shoot precision rifle, is not the same as the "best" for hunting, or crossover, or for PRS, or for whatever category you want to pick.

 

[AMGtuned]

I like tried and true, myself. Cant seem to get on the 6/6.5 bandwagon. It's like the "cool kid" thing in my eyes, and I just dont do that. I have 2 .308 rifles and love them: need more power? A little windy? ; out comes the .300 win mag. Although I'm sure that has its downfalls too, right? Fuck it guy, go buy a .50 and hit the gym, no wind nor freight train will stop you.....lol. .243 Winchester might be a good learner? Ammo availability, LOTS of factory load hunting rounds, decent bc's, minimal recoil.

And what is all this recoil talk anyway? A Rifle is a stupid machine, it operates on a straight line. Isnt part of fundamentals being straight behind the weapon? Follow through? Early on, I couldn't understand this, now I think it's fun to watch bullet flight at long distance. Also feels good to spot your own impacts while your buddies are recovering from flinch. Trigger time, no replacement for trigger time, whatever your caliber. Dont be scared of recoil, your brain will make you flinch. In the end, buy what you want, buy 10 of them, buy the new, or buy the old, and go try it.

 

[Bradu]

Seriously dude? I actually mentioned that part in my post. Right up above where you added his quote. If you're having trouble finding it, Its the part in english.

Furthermore, I wasn't being snarky, I was trying to steer the conversation back out of the ditch. Here, I'm being snarky. For fun. No offense meant, especially if english isn't actually your first language.

Look, ultimately, the OP is going to buy what he wants, and he really probably isn't going to care what we say, unless it confirms his choice for him. My whole point was and has been that buying a gun based on what "might" get done, is a good way to buy a safe filler. Further, the "best" gun for learning to shoot precision rifle, is not the same as the "best" for hunting, or crossover, or for PRS, or for whatever category you want to pick.

I can read just fine ? He said he might shoot farther and might go hunting with it. That eliminates the 223 especially when he's made it pretty clear he doesn't want another 223.

 

[AMGtuned]

Somebody get these fellas a playground to settle this on.......

 

[spaniel]

I like my 308s and will always have one
but if I had to choose I would go .260 every time. I know when the wind is going to strong that it's time to leave the 308 in the safe lol

Threads like this amuse me.

I don't shoot PRS, someone please tell me, what is the drift difference between 308 and 6.5CM at 600 yards in a 10mph wind, and how relevant is that on PRS targets? I can tell you in F-class, lots of FTR shooters out-shoot Open shooters with 284s. Experience and capability WAY trumps relatively small differences in wind drift that only comes into play when High Master shooters are facing off. The thought that shooting a 308 will cause someone to miss so many more targets that they quit seems like needless drama.

The other thing that amuses me is that perhaps 4 years ago everybody on here thought everyone needed to own a 308 and now it's useless and a 6.5CM is needed....and the 260Rem has been around a long time....fads....

My buddy recently shot his first F-class with a 243, as did I before. Like me, he improved greatly through his first match as he learned. The round he was shooting was pretty meaningless as for learning. I'm pretty sure, as happened with me, I was quickly shooting Master with a 243. Yes, you lose a few points and won't win matches vs 284s. I gained a lot more from going to a dedicated F-class rifle design than I did from the round used. But quit? C'mon.

 

[308pirate]

someone please tell me, what is the drift difference between 308 and 6.5CM at 600 yards in a 10mph wind, and how relevant is that on PRS targets?

Funny you should ask

My 308 load:
Hornady 178 ELD-X @ 2670 FPS
Drift using your parameters: 1.3 mils

Typical 260 Rem / 6.5 Creed
Hornady 140 ELD-M@ 2750 fps
Drift under the same conditions: 1.1 mils

At 600 yds 1.3 mils span 28 inches and 1.1 mils span 23.75 inches. If you're centered and miss a 10 mph pickup or letoff, you get a clean miss regardless of caliber if shooting a 12" plate.

But let's hope none of us misses a 10 mph change, even at the target.

So let's try the same with a 5 mph pickup/let off, which is easier to miss. In that case the same loads above would drift:
308: 0.7mils (15")
6.5: 0.6 mils (13")

Still a clean miss off a 12" plate

Still assuming a 12 x 12 square target, a shift worth .3 mils will get you an edge hit. The 308 load in this example will deflect .3 mils at 600 yards with a 2 mph crosswind. The 6.5 example will do so with also a 2 mph wind shift. All calculations performed with JBM ballistics.

I too think that driver skill is far more important than horsepower.

By the by, once I got tired of competing with service rifles in NRA Highpower I switched to a 260 Rem match rifle based on a fully blueprinted Model 70 with a 28" Krieger light palma barrel. My 600 yd load was 42 grains of H4350 in Remington cases and a Lapua Scenar 139. I say that only to show that I'm not a stranger to the cartridges we're discussing here.

Now, beyond 850 yds or so is when the 6.5 and 6 mm bullets show their advantage.

 

[Bradu]

Threads like this amuse me.

I don't shoot PRS, someone please tell me, what is the drift difference between 308 and 6.5CM at 600 yards in a 10mph wind, and how relevant is that on PRS targets? I can tell you in F-class, lots of FTR shooters out-shoot Open shooters with 284s. Experience and capability WAY trumps relatively small differences in wind drift that only comes into play when High Master shooters are facing off. The thought that shooting a 308 will cause someone to miss so many more targets that they quit seems like needless drama.

The other thing that amuses me is that perhaps 4 years ago everybody on here thought everyone needed to own a 308 and now it's useless and a 6.5CM is needed....and the 260Rem has been around a long time....fads....

My buddy recently shot his first F-class with a 243, as did I before. Like me, he improved greatly through his first match as he learned. The round he was shooting was pretty meaningless as for learning. I'm pretty sure, as happened with me, I was quickly shooting Master with a 243. Yes, you lose a few points and won't win matches vs 284s. I gained a lot more from going to a dedicated F-class rifle design than I did from the round used. But quit? C'mon.

I will be the first to admit I don't get to shoot as often as I would like because of work so I will gladly take the advantage. I don't recall saying anything about 600 yards so what is your point exactly? Don't recall the OP saying anything about 600 max either, he said if he gets the chance to shoot farther. Great long winded post though lol

 

[Rondogg]

Not sure what this means, but perhaps you should read my posts more carefully. I use Hornady brass.

The point was, that Lapua brass has been available a while now (which Old308 stated "was soon to follow" as far as being available).

Perhaps next time when you quote someone, you should read it more closely (especially with being so new here).

I apologize, I noticed I made a mistake after I posted it, and didn't think my comment would piss you off. I was confirming that Hornady brass has served many well. Since your such a long term member which means nothing to me, I will just continue to be a reader.

 

[spaniel]

I will be the first to admit I don't get to shoot as often as I would like because of work so I will gladly take the advantage. I don't recall saying anything about 600 yards so what is your point exactly? Don't recall the OP saying anything about 600 max either, he said if he gets the chance to shoot farther. Great long winded post though lol

"Semi-locally we have the CMP marksmanship park that goes out to, IIRC, 600m. My private property I might can come up with a 300m lane but the hills & trees make it harder."

A little reading comprehension goes a long way, skippy. OP doesn't appear to often have access to 300m, with 600m max.

 

[spaniel]

Funny you should ask

My 308 load:
Hornady 178 ELD-X @ 2670 FPS
Drift using your parameters: 1.3 mils

Typical 260 Rem / 6.5 Creed
Hornady 140 ELD-M@ 2750 fps
Drift under the same conditions: 1.1 mils

At 600 yds 1.3 mils span 28 inches and 1.1 mils span 23.75 inches. If you're centered and miss a 10 mph pickup or letoff, you get a clean miss regardless of caliber if shooting a 12" plate.

But let's hope none of us misses a 10 mph change, even at the target.

So let's try the same with a 5 mph pickup/let off, which is easier to miss. In that case the same loads above would drift:
308: 0.7mils (15")
6.5: 0.6 mils (13")

Still a clean miss off a 12" plate

Still assuming a 12 x 12 square target, a shift worth .3 mils will get you an edge hit. The 308 load in this example will deflect .3 mils at 600 yards with a 2 mph crosswind. The 6.5 example will do so with also a 2 mph wind shift. All calculations performed with JBM ballistics.

I too think that driver skill is far more important than horsepower.

By the by, once I got tired of competing with service rifles in NRA Highpower I switched to a 260 Rem match rifle based on a fully blueprinted Model 70 with a 28" Krieger light palma barrel. My 600 yd load was 42 grains of H4350 in Remington cases and a Lapua Scenar 139. I say that only to show that I'm not a stranger to the cartridges we're discussing here.

Now, beyond 850 yds or so is when the 6.5 and 6 mm bullets show their advantage.

Thank you for the hard numbers. So the difference is a rounding error until actual skill becomes the leveling factor.

Beyond 850 yards, all of these rounds pale to the 7mms, if we are gating on wind drift. In fact my 284 will shoot inside any of these numbers at 600.

 

[Bradu]

"Semi-locally we have the CMP marksmanship park that goes out to, IIRC, 600m. My private property I might can come up with a 300m lane but the hills & trees make it harder."

A little reading comprehension goes a long way, skippy. OP doesn't appear to often have access to 300m, with 600m max.

He also said if he ever did want to shoot out farther. It's just like the guy I just started shooting with recently, we were limited to 700 yards but as he found out it gets relatively easy so he talked to some people and now we have a spot to go to 1150. Another member actually mentioned something about him possibly finding a place that he might not know about but good effort ??? keep trying buddy, you will get there

 

[Bradu]

Thank you for the hard numbers. So the difference is a rounding error until actual skill becomes the leveling factor.

Beyond 850 yards, all of these rounds pale to the 7mms, if we are gating on wind drift. In fact my 284 will shoot inside any of these numbers at 600.

Oh good, now we aren't even in the same book lol. You really know how to debate a topic ?

 

[SLG]

Holy cow. This really is worse than not talking about rifles. Its like those dumb bumper stickers that say how a bad day fishing is better than a good day at work.

And, since I get to shoot basically every. single. day. , I think I'll take my opinions, and my reading comprehension, and go back out to the range. Just got a nice radius today, and need to zero it tonight.

You can always tell who's actually pulling the trigger, and who just plays on the internet. The question in this thread is, can the OP tell, and does he care?

 

[Bradu]

This thread became comical hours ago, you just have to roll with it and enjoy it ?

 

[steve123]

I'm just describing some differences.

In F-class you have nice wind flags to read and wind dummies just to the left and right of you, look down the scope and see the trends on the spotting disc's.

Vs - Field course or tactical, a kestrel to get wind speeds, often no wind flags, just you and the wind. Unless of course team mates are sharing the windage they used. Then there is all the positional and the shooting off of obstacles, your wind guess needs to be correct or you'll have a tough time of it. Plus the steel gets shot up and some of those are not so reactionary, when that happens you can't tell exactly where you hit on it half the time, so sometimes you assume you hit here but you really hit there, when you compensate and miss, and you see where you missed, then you have a better idea, but that miss was a zero.

On steel it's either a hit or miss, on F-class paper that same errant shot would likely result in at least some points.

""""Percentage wise"""", if you take two guys with equal ability, the guy with the cartridge that has the least wind drift will come out ahead, because nobody is perfect at guessing wind. You will see an anomaly once in a while, like a FTR shooter beating out open. That only proves everything went right for that guy on that day, and he's a very good shot and wind reader.

Recoil - less recoil helps when in positional, etc. Some guys like recoil, lol??? Whatever, the less I have to fight recoil the better. Let's play the Macho Macho man song for these studs.