Solved my Problem with Fliers and Intermittent Accuracy Loss.

[Vodoun daVinci]

Not sure where else to put this...I have been having trouble this Season with fliers. One out of every five just not anywhere near the group...I tried everything, knowing it was me. Still, the problem persisted and the problem continued to get worse with overall accuracy steadily declining. I was baffled until last Thursday when after about 20 rounds the bullets started hitting all over the target...I blamed the wind but settled down to do some dry fire.

Unloaded the gun and set myself up, lined up the target and "snap" the firing pin pops. And the sight picture moves - a lot. What the fuck....run the bolt and settle down and "snap" it moves again. Then it dawns on me and I reach up and push my scope and it moves. The picatinny base is loose enough that I can move it and slide it easily.

Now that I get it home and pull it all off I can see that the finish on the underside of the rail and the top of the receiver is abraded/polished off in spots. The damn thing has been shifting for some time obviously. So this time it gets LocTite.

I have red LocTite and don't think I'll need to pull that rail again...or should I go get some blue and call it good?

VooDoo

 

[Newbie2020]

Blue will work fine. Blue has never failed me or my smith.

 

[Romeo458]

I'd go blue. It holds, and if you ever need to or want to take it off its easier.

 

[DeadAss]

Blue. I will never use Red on a scope mount again.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Cleaned her all up with acetone and then remounted the rail with blue LocTite and new screws. Tomorrow when the LocTite is fully set I'll put the scope back on and Thursday I'll be out re zeroing. If I return to <.70 MOA at 200 yards I'll know I have solved it. This has been vexing me for 6 months not being able to understand why groups keep opening up and 20% flyers.

Can't stand not hitting exactly what I'm shooting at.....

VooDoo

 

[MadDuner]

Glad you were able to find the cause!

 

[Mike Casselton]

Did it look something like this?

Had the same problem with a factory installed base on my Creed.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

It looked *exactly* like that.....

VooDoo

 

[Mike Casselton]

I was ready to say fuck it and rebarrel the rifle.
I reached up to turn the scope down to watch someone else's impact and noticed a shift as I turned the power ring.
I thought "WTF?" Got it to do it again so I pulled the scope and I could move the base by hand.
Got home, cleaned it up and used blue locktite on the screws.

 

[Huskydriver]

It's exactly why everyone's first response is to check rings and bases because it happens a ton. Glad you were able to find it

 

[Mike Casselton]

I'm pretty sure I caused mine since I checked the torque on the base screws before I ever shot it.
If I had trusted that Remington uses some form of thread locker and actually torques the screws, I wouldn't have disturbed the thread locker that was already on it.

I just have a hard time believing that Remington would have taken the time to do it correctly.

 

[A&8's]

I use RockSett.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Went to the range, rezeroed, and then went on to 200 yards. I'm back...

2 MOA Orange Dots with a 1 MOA center. At least I learned better trigger control and nailed a bunch of other fundamentals trying to solve an accuracy/inconsistency problem that was actually a loose and moving scope base. I have a sneaking suspicion that base has been shifting for months.

It's LocTite forever for me from now on. Now I can get off the Kiddie Range and back out to 600 yards.

VooDoo

 

[Ajrich]

Depending on the # blue loctite you may need a primer if its stainless action.

 

[Mike Islander]

I always clean all screws and surfaces with acetone and use blue Loktite on every scope, light, grip mount. It should be standard procedure. That's how I learned it and thought everyone did this till I got onto the forums.

Glad you solved the problem. Almost always if POI is inconsistent it's the mounting system. Rarely a bad scope. Rarely a bad barrel or stock installation issue.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Don't know what base you are using, but you need one with a recoil lug and all of mine have benefitted from bedding as well.

 

[supercorndogs]

Does the scope also need a recoil lug is is the friction force from the clamping adequate to hold it?

 

[Yerman]

You should consider bedding the rail and getting a rail with a recoil lug if you don’t already have one.

If you do bed it, make sure you do your research. You’ll need a release agent, scuff up the bottom of the rail to get some “bite”, etc. J.B. Weld works well.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Does the scope also need a recoil lug is is the friction force from the clamping adequate to hold it?

Depends on the caliber and weight of the rifle (free recoil velocity), the size and weight of the scope, and the coefficient of friction between the inner surface area of the scope rings and the surface of the scope body...

Not sure where you were going with that, but if there were such an option available, the answer would be...it depends.

 

[supercorndogs]

If the scope doesn't need a recoil lug in the rings, I think it is likely that a recoil lug on the base is not necessary either.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

If the scope doesn't need a recoil lug in the rings, I think it is likely that a recoil lug on the base is not necessary either.

So you think his sight base loosened and started moving around because...what?

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

The base is an EGW 20 MOA base for Savage SA receivers - they do not incorporate recoil lugs. The rifle is chambered in 6.5CM and has about 800 rounds on it. It has been shifting for about 300 rounds at least. The reason the rail shifted is that the mounting screws (I believe they are #8) were not set with LocTite and worked loose. They are barely loose and even when detected the shifting is literally on the order of thousandths...

Set yer screws with Blue Loctite with 6.5 CM Savages - we'll see if it works loose again but I'm highly skeptical that we will see another issue like this. Lock yer screws.

VooDoo

 

[supercorndogs]

So you think his sight base loosened and started moving around because...what?

Why did the base come loose and the rings stay tight? Why will a base slide if rings don't? Why does only my Seekins base have a lug, while my Nightforce, Larue and EGW have none? Why do you think they don't come loose on me? Why do you think the rail is coming loose because its sliding, and not sliding because its coming loose?

Over tightening and stretching out the tiny hardware is probably the biggest reason they come loose.

My Seekins base, with a recoil lug, shows the same rub marks on top of the action as my other bases with no lug.

Edit, I miss-spoke. I Looked at my Nightforce base, on my 300wm and it does have a recoil lug.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Why did the base come loose and the rings stay tight? Why will a base slide if rings don't?

Differences in clamping force, surface area, and coefficient of friction.

Why does only my Seekins base have a lug, while my Nightforce, Larue and EGW have none?

Because you Seekins is better built, your Nightforce is old (they have lugs now), and your Larue and EGW suck.

Why do you think they don't come loose on me?

Because you haven't overloaded them?... Because you properly torqued and locktited them?... Because you don't shoot heavy calibers and heavy scopes in light rifles?... Because you don't shoot them much at all?

Any number of reasons that I have no way of determining.

Over tightening and stretching out the tiny hardware is probably the biggest reason they come loose.

It's possible, but you have no evidence of that.

My Seekins base, with a recoil lug, shows the same rub marks on top of the action as my other bases with no lug.

Then it isn't making proper contact and needs bedding.

But...how is it slipping and rubbing if you always locktite and they don't come loose?

What would cause them to move at all...hmmmm...could it be recoil?

 

[rgv]

Why did the base come loose and the rings stay tight? Why will a base slide if rings don't? Why does only my Seekins base have a lug, while my Nightforce, Larue and EGW have none? Why do you think they don't come loose on me? Why do you think the rail is coming loose because its sliding, and not sliding because its coming loose?

Over tightening and stretching out the tiny hardware is probably the biggest reason they come loose.

My Seekins base, with a recoil lug, shows the same rub marks on top of the action as my other bases with no lug.

I don't know about the Seekins, but the Precision Armament, Near, and MDT rails with recoil lugs all have elongated screw holes so the rail can slide forward and get proper contact with the front receiver ring.

My opinion is that in these days of 35+ ounce scopes and heavy one+piece Spuhr type mounts, that loctite, 8x40 screws, and a rail with a recoil lug is not overkill.

 

[supercorndogs]

I don't know about the Seekins, but the Precision Armament, Near, and MDT rails with recoil lugs all have elongated screw holes so the rail can slide forward and get proper contact with the front receiver ring.

My opinion is that in these days of 35+ ounce scopes and heavy one+piece Spuhr type mounts, that loctite, 8x40 screws, and a rail with a recoil lug is not overkill.

Why the bigger screws?

 

[rgv]

Why the bigger screws?

greater clamping force.

 

[Baron23]

Not sure where else to put this...I have been having trouble this Season with fliers. One out of every five just not anywhere near the group...I tried everything, knowing it was me. Still, the problem persisted and the problem continued to get worse with overall accuracy steadily declining. I was baffled until last Thursday when after about 20 rounds the bullets started hitting all over the target...I blamed the wind but settled down to do some dry fire.

Unloaded the gun and set myself up, lined up the target and "snap" the firing pin pops. And the sight picture moves - a lot. What the fuck....run the bolt and settle down and "snap" it moves again. Then it dawns on me and I reach up and push my scope and it moves. The picatinny base is loose enough that I can move it and slide it easily.

Now that I get it home and pull it all off I can see that the finish on the underside of the rail and the top of the receiver is abraded/polished off in spots. The damn thing has been shifting for some time obviously. So this time it gets LocTite.

I have red LocTite and don't think I'll need to pull that rail again...or should I go get some blue and call it good?

VooDoo

Have you thought about bedding the rail while you are at it?

Just a though since the wear on the finish seems to be in particular spots, yeah?

Edit: ooops, once again late to the party. never mind! haha

 

[supercorndogs]

Differences in clamping force, surface area, and coefficient of friction.


Because you Seekins is better built, your Nightforce is old (they have lugs now), and your Larue and EGW suck.


Because you haven't overloaded them?... Because you properly torqued and locktited them?... Because you don't shoot heavy calibers and heavy scopes in light rifles?... Because you don't shoot them much at all?

Any number of reasons that I have no way of determining.


It's possible, but you have no evidence of that.


Then it isn't making proper contact and needs bedding.

But...how is it slipping and rubbing if you always locktite and they don't come loose?

What would cause them to move at all...hmmmm...could it be recoil?

I don't think they are slipping and rubbing, take any base off any 700, some of mine are bedded too BTW. and I will bet you dollars to donuts that there will be "rub marks" under the base. If you remove the action forma chassis, it also develops the same kind of marks on the bottom of the action, behind the recoil lug.

You can't determine why mine don't, just like you can't determine why his did. You don't have any of that information about his setup either. Your opinion is that bases need recoil lugs. Mine is that they don't.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I have bedded a few bases back in the day. That was also during the time that I’d invest a lot in accurizing/blueprinting R700 actions and lapping scope rings. With the quality and consistency of today’s actions, no more.

As far as this base, I’d clean up the holes and screws, blue Loctite ‘em and torque’em down to about 30 in lbs and call it good. If the screws loosen up, bedding won’t have prevented that.

 

[Snuby642]

I use RockSett.

So when you go to remove scope you put the whole gun in a wash tub and boil it? Lol

 

[supercorndogs]

It would be easy to pull the barrel and trigger and boil the action and base in the soup pot.

 

[Snuby642]

Sounds yummy.

I suppose if wanting a " permanent " base that stuff will not move till boiled I know that first hand from suppressor mounts.

Usually takes me 3 loads of boiling water into deep butter tub with mount submerged.
But no more overnite stuff.

Guess would not hurt an action. I was thinking of scope. Lol

A pot deep enough to submerge action can be set in a corner barrel up.
The boiling water dumped into it.

I got tired of holding things in the water boiling.

Boil water separately and change out in the holding pot.
Three quick 10 minute soaks like this and the rockset lets go of mounts for me. About 30 minutes total.

 

[supercorndogs]

Wife: What are you making honey!

Me: Remchester Chowder.

 

[A&8's]

So when you go to remove scope you put the whole gun in a wash tub and boil it? Lol

Unless you put a shit ton on the screws, it don't require hot water to remove. A dot it all that is needed on screws you want to remove later.

 

[Snuby642]

Been afraid to put it on a screw .

I accidentally mixed red instead of blue once on some # 4 screws, pita.

 

[sharpshot50]

I've had this happen a few times and I won't even put a rifle away before using blue loctite on every mounting screw when I mount something new now. I generally just get a toothpick, dip it in the end of the tube of loctite, then spread it down the screw threads. It has about a half millimeter of spread on each thread and holds forever.

I just don't trust anything to hold without it anymore. My favorite part is that the blue loctite frequently comes in a red rube with blue marking on it. Really?! You couldn't just make the tube blue to avoid "it's late and I'm going braindead" types of confusion?!

 

[Snuby642]

Yes that is how I ended up with the wrong application.

And then there is permatex brand if you run out and I think all in a blue tube.

Lots of fun when you look the next day and have that oh shit moment.

 

[rcmigpilot]

I use the paste tubes like this, drag the edge of the screw across, doesn't drip or get any place you don't want it.

 

[JCHayes]

In any case, screws should be checked periodically.

 

[acudaowner]

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Well, it worked itself loose again. New screws with cleaned threads, Blue Loctite...started having weird flyers again and put pressure on the scope and could see the base shifting. Took the scope off and son of a *BiTcH!* 3 out of the 4 screws holding the rail down have backed out enough to let the rail move.

Should I try Red Loctite this time? Is it possible the screws are not getting fully 20 inch pound tight? The heads seem to want to strip really easily so I might try and round up some socket head screws this time. Damn this is frustrating...I'd think about bedding it but I don;t think that;s the problem. Seems like the rail fits flush along the length just fine.

The damn screws keep backing out....

VooDoo

 

[A&8's]

Use Rock Sett and torque to 23"lbs.

 

[hereinaz]

Well, it worked itself loose again. New screws with cleaned threads, Blue Loctite...started having weird flyers again and put pressure on the scope and could see the base shifting. Took the scope off and son of a *BiTcH!* 3 out of the 4 screws holding the rail down have backed out enough to let the rail move.

Should I try Red Loctite this time? Is it possible the screws are not getting fully 20 inch pound tight? The heads seem to want to strip really easily so I might try and round up some socket head screws this time. Damn this is frustrating...I'd think about bedding it but I don;t think that;s the problem. Seems like the rail fits flush along the length just fine.

The damn screws keep backing out....

VooDoo

Bed the bases with epoxy. Wax the receiver and screws, then bed the scope base. Pull it up, clean and use red loctite.

Or, just epoxy the bases to the receiver. You can always cook the epoxy and break the bond.

 

[Snuby642]

How aggressively did you clean the reciver screw holes?

A strong solvent several times with compressed air to blow it out.

Let it come back up to room temperature and blow out once again.

If you use red loctite you will need a soldering iron to heat up and remove them if you ever have too.

 

[bigdaddydmd]

Sounds like 4 new #6 or #8 screws are in your future depending on which size you have. I'd replace them, bed that rail, and then go blue Loctite again. If they backed out under proper torque with blue locktite then the threads may be stretched/buggered. You did say it felt like the screws were about to strip.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

How aggressively did you clean the reciver screw holes?

A strong solvent several times with compressed air to blow it out.

Let it come back up to room temperature and blow out once again.

If you use red loctite you will need a soldering iron to heat up and remove them if you ever have too.

Very. Acetone and anhydrous isopropyl.

Compressed air blow out. Check. Done last time.

It was clean, clean, clean.

I have a plan - new screws (with real heads not jackass bullshit easily stripped screw heads) trimmed to correct size. Bedded and locked down with red Loctite. Bought new screws today and it has been cleaned (again) and screws are being filed to size. I think the old/original screws are bottoming in the threaded holes and binding *before* they have achieved sufficient torque.

Why the fuck are these screws so fucking dainty? I got a big ass scope and heavy rings secured to the receiver with teeny, tiny, dainty little screws. On a gun that seems to love to shake shit loose.

I'm re engineering and getting serious this time. Stand by for locked down and torqued down with bedding. This is bullshit.

VooDoo

 

[A&8's]

IF...they were bottoming before proper torque, That, in itself, is/was an obvious problem.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Obvious to who? How was I supposed to know they didn't thread the fucking hole to the bottom/all the way thru? I torqued it to spec and the rail was seemingly rock solid. The torque driver snapped at 20 inch pounds and the rail was solid. How was I supposed to know the fucking screw was bottomed out and only really giving me 8 inch pounds of compression on the fucking rail?

I suppose I could have got all Smarty Pants and measued the depth of the hole and the length of the screw to within thousandths but I failed. I didn't do that.

VooDoo

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Anyway...bought new screws with heads that are actually tight and won;t round out or get the heads stripped and hand filed them to the right length to be sure they were not bottoming out in the unthreaded bottom part of the holes. Cleaned and degreased the holes with acetone multiple time and then dried them with compressed air. Cleaned the new screws with acetone and scuffed up the underside of the rail and the top/mating surfaces of the rifle receiver with 220 grit and cleaned with acetone.

Bedded the rail with Red Loctite and secured all screws with Red Loctite and torqued to 20" pounds. It's curing. We'll see..if it comes loose now?

It goes to a gunsmith and gets a steel rail and bigger screws...still don't understand the reason for a dainty, tiny screw when they are holding a scope against recoil of some pretty powerful stuff. But whatever....

I also learned to throw the supplied screws that come with EGW rails in the trash and buy better screws with a better/tighter Torx head. The shitty/cheap screws coupled with a low end Torx bit are a recipe for stripping the head and not getting sufficient torque. $6 worth of screws from Fastenal was a must for this. Plus the threads on the new screws were just cut better and really gave a positive and solid lock.

VooDoo