Something Wrong With Reloads, Can't Figure Out Why? Need Help!

[Ryder Bohannon]

So I just started reloading for my 6.5 creedmoor and my first time out I actually got really good results. I was happy to find that my reloads shot better than the factory ammo I've been shooting. However, my second and third batch of reloads ended up shooting sporadically all over the place and I can't figure out why!

Setup

Rifle - 6.5 Creedmor Browning X Bolt Hells Canyon Long Range w/ muzzle break - 1:7 twist - 1300 Shot Count
Brass - Hornady once fired factory ammo brass
Primers - CCI BR2
Powder - Hogdon H4350
Bullet - Hornady ELD Match 147gr
Press - Lee Precision Breech Lock Hand Press

Reloading Process

1. Deprime using lee precision deprimer
2. Clean primer pocket
3. Two 20min runs through ultrasonic
4. Air dry in food dehydrator at 165F for 30-45min
5. Brush inside of neck out with bore brush
6. Primer pocket uniform and flash hole debur
7. Hornady One Shot Lube
8. Measure Shoulder length
9. Full length resizing with Redding Type S Bushing Die w/.288 bushing (Took depriming pin out and i'm not 100% sure i put it back together correctly but it seem like I did)
10. Measure Shoulder length again
11. Dry off lube
12. Trim cases to 1.910"
13. Case mouth debur inside and outside
14. Prime cases
15. Measure powder RCBS M500 mechanical scale to desired charge for each 5 shot group (Started at 36.0 and worked up to 41.5 in .5 increments)
16. Seat bullet to 2.270" CBTO with lee precision seating die (0.010" off the lands/measured with Hornady OAL Guage)

Results from first day
5 Shot Groups from 100 yards

36.0gr - 0.680 MOA
36.5gr - 0.809 MOA
37.0gr - 0.741 MOA
37.5gr - 0.590 MOA
38.0gr - 0.903 MOA
38.5gr - 0.580 MOA
39.0gr - 0.777 MOA
39.5gr - 1.202 MOA
40.0gr - 1.064 MOA

Did the EXACT same process for next batch of reloads

Results from Second Day
5 Shot Groups From 200 yards (No I didn't just shoot worse because it's at 200yds I normally shoot just as good from this distance)

37.5gr - 1.415 MOA
37.8gr - 0.856 MOA
38.1gr - 1.08 MOA
38.4gr - 1.21 MOA
38.5gr - 1.815 MOA
38.8gr - 1.63 MOA
39.1gr - 1.75 MOA
40.5gr - 1.75 MOA
41.0gr - 1.49 MOA

At this point I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on so I did thorough inspection of my gun and made sure everything was tightened down securely which it was. I figured that my gun must be dirty because it starts to shoot sporadically when it gets too dirty so I ran 1 patch of Hoppes no 9 down it and 1 dry patch (Got a little bit of copper out of it but the gun dirty seem too dirty at all). Chalked it up to the gun being dirty and reloaded for the next day

Did the EXACT same process for next batch of reloads

Results from Third Day
5 Shot Groups from 200 yards

37.5gr - 1.804 MOA
37.8gr - 1.076 MOA
38.1gr - 1.665 MOA
38.4gr - 1.030 MOA
38.5gr - 2.30 MOA
38.8gr - 1.625 MOA
38.8gr - 2.25 MOA
41.5gr - 1.75 MOA

At this point I started thinking something is wrong with my loads so I fired two 5 shot factory load groups to see what would happen

5 Shot Groups with Hornady ELD Match 140gr Factory Ammo

1.20 MOA
0.930 MOA

Normal groups for shooting this factory round usually groups around 1 MOA

After firing the factory loads I'm thinking that there has to be something wrong with my hand loads but I can't for the life of me figure out what I could be doing wrong because I did the exact same thing that I did the first day and those loads shot really well!

Possibilities and troubles I ran into when handloading these batches

1. When using the Redding Type S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die I thought that since the fired brass would have expanded to my chamber that I would need to bump the shoulder back 0.001" so that it would fit in my chamber. However, even with the bushing die screwed all the way down to the shell holder the brass still came out the same length to the shoulder when measured with hornady comparator guage and calipers and in fact some times I would get even longer measurements by 0.001" than before I resized it?! I think I can see where the lube is still on there near the webbing of the case where the die didn't go down the full length of the case, but my necks are certainly getting resized and when I chamber the brass it chambers and extracts just fine!

2. I don't have my lyman univeral case trimmer bolted down to a reloading bench (I don't have a bench so I have to do it on my counter top) so it moves around on me while i'm trying to trim the brass to length and sometimes the brass ends up catching on the trimmer and I get unevenly trimmed brass around the mouth. I thought this happened with all 3 batches I made though so if it was messing it up then I feel that it would have messed up my first batch as well

3. I can't remember if I let my first batch air dry or if I ran it through the dehydrator but I can't see how that would make any difference.


From what I've concluded so far it has to be my reloads that are messed up. I think it has to be something with the brass that I did because of issues with resizing and trimming so my next step is to buy all new lapua brass and fire them to see what happens.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

[Precision Underground]

I dropped the ultrasonic cleaning a while back. I did a bunch of tests and it made zero difference in accuracy. It’s not worth the pain of drying and still wondering if there was some moisture left in the cases.

I would be hesitant to say it’s the loads for sure without more testing. You are loading 147gr and comparing to factory 140 gr. Get some factory 147 or get some 140 bullets to load.

Those charges are pretty low compared to what I normally load. All rifles are different but around 42gr for the 140s is pretty standard. I don’t see any use in running anything near 37gr, even with the 147s.

Load up some 140s between 41-42 at the same ogive length as factory loads. Then shoot a few groups side by side with factory 140s. This should give you a definitive answer as to if it’s the loads or not. This may save you a lot of tail chasing.

 

[XLR308]

I have the same die set but I use an RCBS shell holder and have enough adjustment that I can actually set the shoulder back .0005-.0015" on new brass that has never been fired.
If you have a concentricity tool you might want to check and see what kind of run out you have on your loaded rounds.
I don't use the expander ball on mine instead I run a Tin coated turning arbor through the necks after I resize to ensure consistent neck tension and minimize run out.
What size bushing are you using for the necks ?

 

[Jack's Dad]

Check your scope mounts. May be loose.

 

[jd5521]

Are you measuring overall length to the tip of bullet or to ogive?

 

[6brshooter]

What press? Wondering about runout.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

I dropped the ultrasonic cleaning a while back. I did a bunch of tests and it made zero difference in accuracy. It’s not worth the pain of drying and still wondering if there was some moisture left in the cases.

I would be hesitant to say it’s the loads for sure without more testing. You are loading 147gr and comparing to factory 140 gr. Get some factory 147 or get some 140 bullets to load.

Those charges are pretty low compared to what I normally load. All rifles are different but around 42gr for the 140s is pretty standard. I don’t see any use in running anything near 37gr, even with the 147s.

Load up some 140s between 41-42 at the same ogive length as factory loads. Then shoot a few groups side by side with factory 140s. This should give you a definitive answer as to if it’s the loads or not. This may save you a lot of tail chasing.

- The cases coming out of the dehydrator are certainly dry, I don't think there would be any moisture left in the case. The reason I didn't get a tumbler is because I live in an apartment and it would be too noisy.

- I have shot many Hornady ELD Match 147gr factory loads out of my rifle and it shoots just under Sub MOA consistently. I have some 142gr Sierra Match Kings as well that I could try though

- The reason I started so low is because it was my first time ever reloading and I wanted to be safe so I followed the manuals by the book. Even at 41.5 I haven't ran into any pressure signs so I'm going to keep slowly increasing and get into the 42.0's

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

I have the same die set but I use an RCBS shell holder and have enough adjustment that I can actually set the shoulder back .0005-.0015" on new brass that has never been fired.
If you have a concentricity tool you might want to check and see what kind of run out you have on your loaded rounds.
I don't use the expander ball on mine instead I run a Tin coated turning arbor through the necks after I resize to ensure consistent neck tension and minimize run out.
What size bushing are you using for the necks ?

- Shouldn't I only need to set the shoulder back if the brass won't chamber into my rifle? I feel like my brass isn't expanding to my chamber size because even with the shoulder never getting bumped back it still fits into my chamber.

- I don't have a concentricity tool

- I don't think any of my dies have neck expanders in them

- I'm using .288 bushing (Measured a loaded Hornady ELM Match 147gr round which was .290 so I went with .002" neck tension)

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

Check your scope mounts. May be loose.

Check them and they were locked down. Check all of the screws on my rifle and everything was locked down perfectly.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

Are you measuring overall length to the tip of bullet or to ogive?

For seating my bullet i'm measuring case base to ogive length

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

What press? Wondering about runout.

Lee precision breech lock hand press

 

[XLR308]

- Shouldn't I only need to set the shoulder back if the brass won't chamber into my rifle? I feel like my brass isn't expanding to my chamber size because even with the shoulder never getting bumped back it still fits into my chamber.

- I don't have a concentricity tool

- I don't think any of my dies have neck expanders in them

- I'm using .288 bushing (Measured a loaded Hornady ELM Match 147gr round which was .290 so I went with .002" neck tension)

Your correct in not needing to bump the shoulder any more than needed for easy chambering ( .001-.002") but by the way I read your OP I got the impression you couldn't bump the shoulder.

You can check concentricity visually by rolling them on mirror but that is only visual reference and you won't have an actual measurement but will be able to see run out if it's present that way.

Your size die should have arrived assembled with the size button installed and an additional pin with just the holder and no neck button.

 

[XLR308]

Lee precision breech lock hand press

You may have some major inconsistencies trying to use a hand press with a mid size rifle round due to flex and the amount of effort it would require.
You just don't have the feel of what is going on compared to a rigid mounted bench type press.
You might be strong as an ox I don't know but there is a major difference.

 

[jd5521]

If you’re .10 off the lands you might try .20 and see if your groups tighten up. If they do but you think they can do better jump to .30 and go from there. Your rifle may not like .10 off the lands...

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

If you’re .10 off the lands you might try .20 and see if your groups tighten up. If they do but you think they can do better jump to .30 and go from there. Your rifle may not like .10 off the lands...

Well I had trouble with inconsistent readings when using the Hornady OAL guage on my rifle so I'm not 100% certain that i'm 0.010" off of the lands but I do know that all of the batches that I made even the first batch that shot really well and the two batches that shot so poorly all had CBTO lenngths of 2.270"

 

[antithesis]

Too many variables. You are going to need to sort them out one by one. Some additional thoughts...

When you say once fired, was that before you started or is each group using the original batch?
When was the last time you calibrated the scale?
If you have to trim after every firing then your chamber is stupid big and/or you DO have an expander button in that die.
Have you checked the gap between your die and the shell holder (has the die moved)?
You are measuring CBTO, but how much bullet is left in the neck?
I don't see that you brush the necks. Sonic cleaners leave a gripping residue inside the necks.
What type of water and cleaner are you using? Are you rinsing them? Cleaning agents are not powder friendly.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

Too many variables. You are going to need to sort them out one by one. Some additional thoughts...

When you say once fired, was that before you started or is each group using the original batch?
When was the last time you calibrated the scale?
If you have to trim after every firing then your chamber is stupid big and/or you DO have an expander button in that die.
Have you checked the gap between your die and the shell holder (has the die moved)?
You are measuring CBTO, but how much bullet is left in the neck?
I don't see that you brush the necks. Sonic cleaners leave a gripping residue inside the necks.
What type of water and cleaner are you using? Are you rinsing them? Cleaning agents are not powder friendly.

- Once fired meaning I bought factory Hornady ELD Match 147gr ammo and shot them in my rifle then saved them and used them for my reloads

- I calibrate (re zero) the scale after each 5 loads at a certain grain is made and then move on to the next five loads in the batch and so on

- The only time I had to trim was after resizing the brass that was shot out of the factory ammo that I had. After that the case length has stayed the same and has not needed to be retrimmed

- There is no gap at all between the die and the shell holder I have the resizing die seated flush with the shell holder

- How do I measure how much bullet is left in the neck?

- I do brush the inside of the necks with a bore brush after they dry I forget to put that in my post, I apologize. However, even after ultrasonic cleaning I shine a flashlight down inside the case and there is always residue left inside there.

- I'm putting sink water into the ultrasonic along with the hornady one shot case cleaning solution that the ultrasonic recommends. I do remember now that I washed the brass off inside and out after they came out of the ultrasonic with sink water on my first batch and let them dry whereas on the 2nd and 3rd batch I took them straight from the ultrasonic and put them into the dehydrator without rinsing them off. Then I noticed this morning when I tried to pour the powder back out of one of my cases I loaded to make sure it was the right amount, some of the grains of powder were sticking to the inside of the case and I had to tap it on the counter to get them to come out.

 

[jd5521]

IMHO I would go back to square one and find your accuracy node/nodes with measurements taken from the factory rounds. Then once the powder charge is found I would mess with seating depths. But, as pointed out above, I would ditch the hand press and get a bench press...

 

[Precision Underground]

- The cases coming out of the dehydrator are certainly dry, I don't think there would be any moisture left in the case. The reason I didn't get a tumbler is because I live in an apartment and it would be too noisy.

- I have shot many Hornady ELD Match 147gr factory loads out of my rifle and it shoots just under Sub MOA consistently. I have some 142gr Sierra Match Kings as well that I could try though

- The reason I started so low is because it was my first time ever reloading and I wanted to be safe so I followed the manuals by the book. Even at 41.5 I haven't ran into any pressure signs so I'm going to keep slowly increasing and get into the 42.0's

- I thought mine were dry as well but then decided to run a q-tip down around inside the case and found moisture. Just plain water on squeaky clean brass will dry easily but if there is left over gunk inside it can hold that moisture, bigtime. Did the first batch of reloads dry for days/weeks and the second and third batch get loaded same day?

- Doesn't matter. You still can't be positive it's your loads if you aren't comparing apples to apples while the issue is present.

The only thing that 100% for sure changed was your distance. Take some reloads and some matching factory loads and go shoot at 100 yards. Same bullet, same ogive measurement, same distance. You have to keep variables to an absolute minimum when tracking issues down or you will go in circles.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

- I thought mine were dry as well but then decided to run a q-tip down around inside the case and found moisture. Just plain water on squeaky clean brass will dry easily but if there is left over gunk inside it can hold that moisture, bigtime. Did the first batch of reloads dry for days/weeks and the second and third batch get loaded same day?

- Doesn't matter. You still can't be positive it's your loads if you aren't comparing apples to apples while the issue is present.

The only thing that 100% for sure changed was your distance. Take some reloads and some matching factory loads and go shoot at 100 yards. Same bullet, same ogive measurement, same distance. You have to keep variables to an absolute minimum when tracking issues down or you will go in circles.

After Antithesis's post above it made me realize that the first batch I did I rinsed the brass with water inside and out after they came out of the ultrasonic and left them to dry overnight. However, the 2nd and 3rd batches I made I forgot to rinse the brass with water after ultrasonic cleaning them I just took them straight from the ultrasonic and put them in the dehyrator and let them dry. He was saying that cleaning agents are not powder friendly. I noticed on the 3rd batch when I tried to pour some powder out of one of my cases I loaded to make sure it was the right amount, some of the grains of powder were sticking to the inside of the case and I had to tap it on the counter to get them to come out.

 

[antithesis]

- How do I measure how much bullet is left in the neck?

I could have just as easily asked for you loaded OAL and approximated, however...

Probably more than a few ways to get it done, some are more accurate than others, none need to be precise. A couple of ways to go about it.

(((bullet base to bullet OGIVE + case OAL) - CBTO) - length of BT)
The first part is pretty easy and gets you most of it. Measuring the boat tail does not need to be precise (get it close with a caliper).

-or- pull a bullet that has been seated using a Kenetic puller and measure from the top of the BT to where the top of the neck was. If you have very low neck tension you may want to score the bullet at the case mouth with a razor blade before you pull it.

If the powder is sticking to the case walls or you have residue from the solution in the case that is where I would start. If you are only talking about the 1 or 2 kernels that stick in the flash hole then no big deal on that front, but cleaning solution do not play well with powder. Anything that is in the case is getting lit on fire along with the powder.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

I could have just as easily asked for you loaded OAL and approximated, however...

Probably more than a few ways to get it done, some are more accurate than others, none need to be precise. A couple of ways to go about it.

(((bullet base to bullet OGIVE + case OAL) - CBTO) - length of BT)
The first part is pretty easy and gets you most of it. Measuring the boat tail does not need to be precise (get it close with a caliper).

-or- pull a bullet that has been seated using a Kenetic puller and measure from the top of the BT to where the top of the neck was. If you have very low neck tension you may want to score the bullet at the case mouth with a razor blade before you pull it.

If the powder is sticking to the case walls or you have residue from the solution in the case that is where I would start. If you are only talking about the 1 or 2 kernels that stick in the flash hole then no big deal on that front, but cleaning solution do not play well with powder. Anything that is in the case is getting lit on fire along with the powder.

No it wasn't 1 or 2 kernals sticking in the flash hole it was sticking to the case walls

 

[Long Range 338]

- The reason I started so low is because it was my first time ever reloading and I wanted to be safe so I followed the manuals by the book. Even at 41.5 I haven't ran into any pressure signs so I'm going to keep slowly increasing and get into the 42.0's

So this could be the issue. Not to be condescending as I'm not the all knowledgeable reloader but I grew up reloading and there are some aspects to the process that need to be shown, not just explained.
You are a beginning reloader and are jumping straight to some advanced techniques. You may need to slow down and try to find somebody to help you thru the process. Youtube can be very insightful but you have to be able to discern the good info from the bad. LOTS and LOTS of good info on this site and very advanced reloaders so the information is here, just take your time and be thoughtful as you go thru it all. We can all make the best of recommendations but you are left to deal with the consequences!
See if you can find somebody in your area to give you some hands on show and tell and you will probably learn more in an hour than several days of mucking thru it on your own.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

So this could be the issue. Not to be condescending as I'm not the all knowledgeable reloader but I grew up reloading and there are some aspects to the process that need to be shown, not just explained.
You are a beginning reloader and are jumping straight to some advanced techniques. You may need to slow down and try to find somebody to help you thru the process. Youtube can be very insightful but you have to be able to discern the good info from the bad. LOTS and LOTS of good info on this site and very advanced reloaders so the information is here, just take your time and be thoughtful as you go thru it all. We can all make the best of recommendations but you are left to deal with the consequences!
See if you can find somebody in your area to give you some hands on show and tell and you will probably learn more in an hour than several days of mucking thru it on your own.

I get where you're coming from but I don't think that would explain why I had such drastic differences between my first batch and my 2nd/3rd batch of reloads.

 

[RRG]

Check your scope mounts. May be loose.

Yeah, I agree, probably something simple, if the scope mounts check out OK. Then check the action screws, they could be loose.

 

[918v]

Ditch the UltraSonic. If you gotta have it, then get some Imperial Dry Neck Lube and use that prior to bullet seating. I think you are experiencing cold welding of the neck to the bullet.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

Ditch the UltraSonic. If you gotta have it, then get some Imperial Dry Neck Lube and use that prior to bullet seating. I think you are experiencing cold welding of the neck to the bullet.

I have some imperial dry neck lube but didn't use that when seating the bullet I will give it a try

 

[blownPrimer]

First thing I would say is relax--my gut reaction is that you have some variation which may not match your expectations from your first go (which could have been luck of perfect set-up circumstances)--but your over-all magnitude of deviations don't strike me as cause for "equipment malfunction freak-out."

I've reloaded 6.5 creed for my AR build (which introduces the added complexity of auto-feed) and in general the cartridge is pretty "tolerant" of a wide range of load configurations. 147 is getting up there on the heavy side of projectiles; while your twist is more than enough, lower velocities could factor into stabilizing the bullet. Reading through the whole thread another thing that jumps out at me--though I may be misreading it--is you mention a short jump to lands--but you also indicate a relatively short COL (I've gone well past 2.9" with some bullets and still not engaged the lands) so I'm a bit suspicious about your freebore length--though I find it highly unlikely that it would be on the short side--but I haven't shot that gun so who knows.

I've bought Hornady's 6.5 creed whitetail hunter ammo--a very ho-hum interlock bullet--and shot .5 MOA with it out of my AR. Hornady makes VERY good factory creedmoor ammo--so good that I often have troubles exceeding their performance without investing a TON of time reloading. I would suggest you first buy a few boxes of their factory stuff in the 129 to 140 gr projectile weight range and see what your gun likes, then try to replicate it. Unless your absolutely positive you know your chamber's dimensions with precision--I wouldn't go on a "bump the shoulder bender." (unless maybe the case definitely has "stretched" beyond proper headspace tolerance, which could be a bigger issue) Keep it simple and get a set of hornady dies which are usually defaulted to small base tolerance.

Lastly, I bought a BLR in 7-08 and had good days with good loads--and then inexplicably bad days with the same load. I eventually figured out that I had to be on my game the way I held the rifle--the foreend is quite narrow and free recoil shooting simply didn't work for me. Once I supported the foreend firmly I returned to happy one-hole land. : ) Just a few "shots in the dark."

 

[918v]

I have some imperial dry neck lube but didn't use that when seating the bullet I will give it a try

Dump a third of the ceramic balls out and shake the container real good to get the graphite distributed evenly within the media. Then dunk the case neck in and out several times to get enough graphite in the neck.

 

[Precision Underground]

After Antithesis's post above it made me realize that the first batch I did I rinsed the brass with water inside and out after they came out of the ultrasonic and left them to dry overnight. However, the 2nd and 3rd batches I made I forgot to rinse the brass with water after ultrasonic cleaning them I just took them straight from the ultrasonic and put them in the dehyrator and let them dry. He was saying that cleaning agents are not powder friendly. I noticed on the 3rd batch when I tried to pour some powder out of one of my cases I loaded to make sure it was the right amount, some of the grains of powder were sticking to the inside of the case and I had to tap it on the counter to get them to come out.

Sounds like they were still damp. Not rinsing is not going to make powder stick to the inside if they are totally dry. His post about sticky necks was meaning the neck will be so clean that it will grab the bullet tightly and make for inconsistent neck tension.

 

[Steel head]

Lee precision breech lock hand press

Lol
I started with one of those.
My first hits at 1000+ were loaded on it.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Ditch the UltraSonic.


If you gotta have it, then get some Imperial Dry Neck Lube and use that prior to bullet seating. I think you are experiencing cold welding of the neck to the bullet.

Follow the first part of this advice. Just take a few fired cases, steel wool the carbon off the necks before sizing, load and shoot, see what happens.
Nothing good comes from sonic cleaning brass to bare metal, especially if you have to add another foreign substance to the equation to prevent something from happening that did not need to happen. Tumbling with ss pins at least polishes the inside of the necks.

I have said for yrs that you really can't up pressures that greatly with more neck tension, but altering the surface of the necks(sonic cleaning, not tumbling after annealing), all bets are off.
Not sure how to put this, in reloading, you have to have a consistent flow of dynamics that work, adding a process to overcome what was done just doesn't make any sense. Leave the carbon inside the necks alone, and screw your neighbors, put a tumbler inside a box to tone down the noise.

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have been suggested. I was trying to work up a load for my .223 last year, and it didn't matter what I did, I couldn't get shit to hit. Bullets were left, then right. They were all over the target. Turns out the scope was malfunctioning, not loose in the rings, but internally. Sent it back to Vortex. They took care of it and my rifle is back to shooting like it should. If you have another scope, swap it out and give it a try.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have been suggested. I was trying to work up a load for my .223 last year, and it didn't matter what I did, I couldn't get shit to hit. Bullets were left, then right. They were all over the target. Turns out the scope was malfunctioning, not loose in the rings, but internally. Sent it back to Vortex. They took care of it and my rifle is back to shooting like it should. If you have another scope, swap it out and give it a try.

Thanks for the reply I thought of that too, but I shot some factory loads and they shot just fine so that makes me think it can't be the gun or the scope

 

[bax]

Something changed. Since the gun still shoots factory loads, it appears to be in your handloads.

For what it's worth, I think you need to eliminate steps and double check steps until you find the problem

• drop the ultrasonic until you solve this problem, just wipe the cases clean with a rag
• if you can chamber a fired case, I would stop trying to bump shoulders until you solve this problem, just neck size
• Do not use the expander ball. If you must expand, use a mandrel.
• be VERY careful with powder charges, maybe charge 5 cases then pour each one back onto the scale pan to check. I just disassembled 600 rounds of pistol ammo when I didn't do that.
• verify your max COL. Make fake rounds and seat the bullets further out until you confirm max-COL. I personally load 300 win mag with 230 grain bullets just off the lands and 308 with 175 grain about 0.023 off the lands.
• You sorta checked the scope by shooting with factory ammo. If you can't find the issue, I would revisit the base and then the scope.
• you sorta checked you, the shooter, with factory ammo. I assume that you are shooting off a bench? Make sure that it is the same bench, benches vary. Do all of your testing at 100 yards. Eliminate variables. Whatever is left, however unlikely, must be the issue.

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

Something changed. Since the gun still shoots factory loads, it appears to be in your handloads.

For what it's worth, I think you need to eliminate steps and double check steps until you find the problem

• drop the ultrasonic until you solve this problem, just wipe the cases clean with a rag
• if you can chamber a fired case, I would stop trying to bump shoulders until you solve this problem, just neck size
• Do not use the expander ball. If you must expand, use a mandrel.
• be VERY careful with powder charges, maybe charge 5 cases then pour each one back onto the scale pan to check. I just disassembled 600 rounds of pistol ammo when I didn't do that.
• verify your max COL. Make fake rounds and seat the bullets further out until you confirm max-COL. I personally load 300 win mag with 230 grain bullets just off the lands and 308 with 175 grain about 0.023 off the lands.
• You sorta checked the scope by shooting with factory ammo. If you can't find the issue, I would revisit the base and then the scope.
• you sorta checked you, the shooter, with factory ammo. I assume that you are shooting off a bench? Make sure that it is the same bench, benches vary. Do all of your testing at 100 yards. Eliminate variables. Whatever is left, however unlikely, must be the issue.

Thanks, I ordered some new lapua brass to eliminate the ultrasonic, I also made a new batch and washed the brass off after taking it out of the ultrasonic to see if that was the issue as well.

 

[antithesis]

Thanks, I ordered some new lapua brass to eliminate the ultrasonic, I also made a new batch and washed the brass off after taking it out of the ultrasonic to see if that was the issue as well.

Brush the necks!

 

[918v]

I stainless tumble my brass so I share your problems. The way I overcame the inaccuracy issue is through the following process:

I size the brass, then dunk the clean necks into the ceramic media with graphite, then expand the necks with an expander mandrel. This forces the graphite into the pores. The end product is firm but smooth bullet seating that leaves no seater stem marks on the bullet nose.

 

[bax]

Thanks, I ordered some new lapua brass to eliminate the ultrasonic, I also made a new batch and washed the brass off after taking it out of the ultrasonic to see if that was the issue as well.

I did not speak forcefully enough. You don't need the inside of your necks that clean. It isn't helping you. It may be hurting you. Process steps that you do not do cannot have a negative impact. When you are starting out, do the fewest possible steps and make sure that every step is done perfectly. After you get your handloads working consider adding ultrasonic cleaning back into your process. You are not looking for the next .10 or .05 MOA, you need to get below 1 MOA. Go back to basics, leave out exotic stuff with unknown effects. Ultrasonic cleaning is exotic.

 

[Precision Underground]

I did not speak forcefully enough. You don't need the inside of your necks that clean. It isn't helping you. It may be hurting you. Process steps that you do not do cannot have a negative impact. When you are starting out, do the fewest possible steps and make sure that every step is done perfectly. After you get your handloads working consider adding ultrasonic cleaning back into your process. You are not looking for the next .10 or .05 MOA, you need to get below 1 MOA. Go back to basics, leave out exotic stuff with unknown effects. Ultrasonic cleaning is exotic.

There is literally zero reason to sonic clean brass. There are several reasons not to sonic clean it.

 

[antithesis]

There is literally zero reason to sonic clean brass. There are several reasons not to sonic clean it.

I do it, and I don't have problems. It is quick, and it does not beat the crap out of clean cut case mouths. Ultrasonics are not the problem. It is bad chemical choices, bad water choices, bad temp choices, and assumptions that you don't need to do anything other than dip and rinse that give bad results.

 

[Precision Underground]

I do it, and I don't have problems. It is quick, and it does not beat the crap out of clean cut case mouths. Ultrasonics are not the problem. It is bad chemical choices, bad water choices, bad temp choices, and assumptions that you don't need to do anything other than dip and rinse that give bad results.

If you plan on letting your brass dry for 24 hours before loading it and have time to line it all up mouth-down to make sure no water gets left inside, and you have time time to lube necks before seating bullets then sure. But I don’t have that time or patience, especially for a process that is totally unnecessary. Ultrasonics are not the problem but ultrasonics open the door for lots of problems. The fact that this tread exists is actual evidence of that.

 

[antithesis]

If you plan on letting your brass dry for 24 hours before loading it and have time to line it all up mouth-down to make sure no water gets left inside, and you have time time to lube necks before seating bullets then sure. But I don’t have that time or patience, especially for a process that is totally unnecessary. Ultrasonics are not the problem but ultrasonics open the door for lots of problems. The fact that this tread exists is actual evidence of that.

The reality is cleaning brass is not necessary as a rag and a case neck brush take care of the essentials.. So if you are short on time them why bother doing anything other than wipe and brush? I clean my brass because it makes the number and frequency of other things that need to be cleaned because of dirty brass at a minimum. You don't even need to tumble after annealing as case neck brushes take care of things quickly and should be used after tumbling regardless. But yeah, I have enough brass, enough room, the right tools, and it fits my process.

As for the reason for this thread, can probably say that about most problem threads. I would argue that many threads about problems with handloads should actually start with an honest evaluation by the shooter as to how well they shoot before trying to figure out what is wrong with their loads.

 

[Milo 2.5]

The reality is cleaning brass is not necessary as a rag and a case neck brush take care of the essentials.. So if you are short on time them why bother doing anything other than wipe and brush? I clean my brass because it makes the number and frequency of other things that need to be cleaned because of dirty brass at a minimum. You don't even need to tumble after annealing as case neck brushes take care of things quickly and should be used after tumbling regardless. But yeah, I have enough brass, enough room, the right tools, and it fits my process.

As for the reason for this thread, can probably say that about most problem threads. I would argue that many threads about problems with handloads should actually start with an honest evaluation by the shooter as to how well they shoot before trying to figure out what is wrong with their loads.

Dry tumbling after an anneal for 2 hrs takes way less effort than brushing individual necks of cases. I can't or never will be able to compare the 2 methods as I will never use your method.
A good share of the newer innovations in reloading are geared toward time savings, some stick, others get weeded out with time and common sense.

 

[bax]

"A good share of the newer innovations in reloading are geared toward time savings, some stick, others get weeded out with time and common sense. "

I agree which is why I suggested that the OP do the fewest possible activities. Handloading is really simple - once you do it for 50 years like I and many others here have done. I have never used stainless pins or ultrasonic and my crappy Remington 308 with a bushnell scope and 6,000+ rounds through it will typically shoot .4 to .7 MOA with LC LR brass, 4064, and 175 SMKs.

I tumble my brass so that it will be clean on the outside and not get crossed up when I close the bolt. I anneal my brass but I also know that I do that more to extend the brass life, all the accuracy I get out of that happens beyond 700 yards. The inside of the brass takes care of itself. Maybe I could do better but my crappy gun shoots groups that are half the size of the OP with a caliber that is not as good as his and I don't clean the snot out of my brass so I don't think he needs to either. I think, there be dragons. Yes, that is a bit of ego but it is real world experience and a real data point.

After two bad experiences, the OP shot a 0.9 MOA group with factory ammo in this weapons so he isn't a klutz and he didn't get flustered. His first handloads in this weapon shot 0.5 to 0.9 (ignoring the last 2 groups). Then his handload group 2 shot one 0.8, one 1.0 and the rest were 1.2 or worse. His third handload group shot two 1.0 groups and everything else was 1.6 or worse.

Something is different and something is wrong. I think that a 0.1 jump is too much, I would go for 0.01 -- that is a hundredth of an inch, not a tenth of an inch and I would check the actual length using a different technique. I would check the powder scale, scope, and base. I might hunt for a hotter node, I don't know this caliber but I hear things. I would stop trying to bump the shoulder and I would stop the exotic cleaning until this gun is shooting again. I would also clean the weapon but I recognize that many of you don't so maybe that is just my experience. I do wonder what the targets look like - weather report?

 

[Precision Underground]

The reality is cleaning brass is not necessary as a rag and a case neck brush take care of the essentials.. So if you are short on time them why bother doing anything other than wipe and brush? I clean my brass because it makes the number and frequency of other things that need to be cleaned because of dirty brass at a minimum. You don't even need to tumble after annealing as case neck brushes take care of things quickly and should be used after tumbling regardless. But yeah, I have enough brass, enough room, the right tools, and it fits my process.

As for the reason for this thread, can probably say that about most problem threads. I would argue that many threads about problems with handloads should actually start with an honest evaluation by the shooter as to how well they shoot before trying to figure out what is wrong with their loads.

To each his own I guess. I find cleaning a die once a month a lot easier than sonic cleaning, rinsing, dumping, lining up 1000 pieces of brass to dry, and then having to lube necks to avoid cold welding every time I need to load. It is literally a feel good process that does not benefit the ammo at all.

There is nothing wrong with it if you do it right but I can not see a single benefit of all of those extra steps. What it does do is add a lot of variables that can be a pain to track down when it goes south. Variables like your first batch of ammo doing great and your second and third doing not so great because the cases were still damp inside...

 

[Ryder Bohannon]

UPDATE - Gave my rifle a really good cleaning this time, ran a bore brush, a patch of hoppes no 9 (let soak for 20-30min) followed by a dry patch 3 times and quite a bit of copper came out. Took the gun to the range and it took about 20 shots for the groups to start tightening back up. Once they tightened up with factory ammo I shot the reloads again and groups tightened back down to 0.5 - 0.8 MOA.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I'm glad the mystery is solved. I will get flamed for posting this, but a lot of guys here make reloading way too difficult. I made every "mistake" in the book before I started reading here and shooting long range. I had very little trouble shooting half moa groups for three shots(I know, not a real group) to 500 yards. I loaded everything with a Lyman DPS and used a Lee press and dies. I didn't tumble or anneal and I crimped EVERYTHING with the Lee factory crimp die. I had a cheap Salvage that would shoot 3/8" at 100 for 3 shots very consistently as a .243 with 70 gr Noslers and as a 22/250 is would shoot under 1/2" with 55 gr Noslers and we'll under half moa with 55 gr Bergers. That was loaded with dirty Winchester brass with too much shoulder bump with a ton of firings on them. Now I have a lot more issues trying different things and not keeping it simple than I ever did before I knew what I was doing. Unless something is broken, it is fairly easy to load 1/2" at 100 yd ammo. All this other shit that goes down the rabbit hole comes in when you are trying to maintain that half moa to distance,or when you are trying to cut half moa down to quarter moa and under. At a certain point the law of diminishing returns kicks in BIG TIME. My advice is to keep things as simple as possible until you learn the basics. Then start chasing the diminishing returns. I think most of us here that are annealing and exploring different methods of sizing, seating, and case prep do it because we like to experiment. I don't think a lot of it is really necessary to shoot .5-.6 moa at close range with a well built gun.

 

[JOE62]

You try those 142 SMK's and you will throw rocks at Red tipped bullets. Your 7.5 twist should like the 150's. My rifle will not shoot any weight (130,140,147) any where near as good as the Hornady BTHP's. Glad to hear you got it figured out.

 

[clcustom1911]

UPDATE - Gave my rifle a really good cleaning this time, ran a bore brush, a patch of hoppes no 9 (let soak for 20-30min) followed by a dry patch 3 times and quite a bit of copper came out. Took the gun to the range and it took about 20 shots for the groups to start tightening back up. Once they tightened up with factory ammo I shot the reloads again and groups tightened back down to 0.5 - 0.8 MOA.

Excellent. Now, when you do your H4350 with your 147's, go up past 41.5g and work up to 42 or 42.5 in .2g increments. Hornady brass has a larger internal volume than your incoming Lapua Brass....

For example when I used Hornady vs Prime/Norma brass: Prime was on average 10 grains heavier.

With your Lapua Brass... it's heavier and stronger than Hornady. You will need to lower your charge weight by 1 to 2 grains to have the same velocity as the Hornady.

Like @MakeSawdust said above. The Rabbit Hole is an insidious bastard that really sneaks up on you. Next thing you know, shit's all over the place and you need to narrow down what could be wrong from 20 different variables.

I use all Lee presses and dies, and have been doing so since I started reloading a decade ago. I'm no authority at all, but I refuse to get truly insane to try to get my groups to shrink from .5moa down to .4moa.

My 147 ELDm Thread was a great learning experience for me and my other Nosler 130 RDF thread I reference in there was a good experience as well.

Welcome to the world of one day it's, "MAN!! What awesome shooting I did today!!" To "what the fuck happened today?!?!?"