Rifle Scopes Speed of LPVO vs Red Dot

[tspinaker]

I'm considering changing my Aimpoint Comp M4 to a Vortex Razor 1-6. I've read you can see the dot well in daylight with the Vortex. How much speed do you lose in target acquisition of a red dot vs LPVO on low setting? I'm thinking it would be just as fast as long as I train with it. My eyes are also not quite what they used to be when I was younger, so that's why I'm considering the change.

 

[5RWill]

It’s close

 

[MK20]

Do yourself a favor and hunt down a Steiner P4xi 1-4. Truly Aimpoint bright and damn near a true 1x. Cheap too. I find it to be 99% as fast as a red dot and the best choice for a do it all rifle.

 

[Gasgun]

I’ve got the Razor and a ATACR 1-8.
They give up very little speed to the red dot, but they are a compromise.
I’d say that unless you are doing a lot of shooting at longer ranges, the weight, expense, and slight loss of speed might not be worth it.

 

[MK20]

It really comes down to what part of the country you will be running it in. Out west, LPVO. East of the Mississippi, generally red dot with magnifier sometimes.

 

[tspinaker]

I was wondering about the weight too. I know the Razors are typically heavy, so I figured a 1-6 would be heavier than and Aimpoint. I also noticed the Razor has brightness adjustment. Are the lower settings compatible with night vision?

 

[rob.sfo]

What’s the intended use? Home defense, 3Gun, range toy, duty, etc.? I’d pick something different for all of those.

I’ve used both on the clock at 3Gun matches and in training, and my splits aren’t discernibly different.

LPVO adds weight and cost if you’re getting quality glass that is truly 1x.

The high end of magnification also depends. 4x, 6x, 8x, 10x are all options. I prefer a red dot on my shorty pistol, 6x on my competition 556 and 8x on my 762.

 

[tspinaker]

I would probably just put the red dot on my truck gun, and put the LPVO on my AR as sort of a "do everything" gun. I was thinking hunting, target shooting, etc. I definitely would want a true 1x on the lower setting, as well as good quality glass.

 

[MK20]

I picked up my Steiner for 446 dollars. I got a good deal from a friend but you can find them around the mid 500’s

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Zero speed difference between a good LPVO (like a razor) and a red dot. IF you practice.

 

[BigRed308]

I’ve got the Trijicon 1-8. Great glass and brightness. Splits are no different than my MRO or Aimpoints. Selling the Trijicon just based on change of needs definitely sacrificed with the Trijicon though

 

[tspinaker]

I've looked at the Trijicon as well. I'm weighing it against the Vortex.

 

[tspinaker]

I'm guessing I wouldn't be able to mount a PVS-14 behind an LPVO like I would a red dot. I may just have to pick up a PVS-30.

 

[BigRed308]

Shoot me a PM if you’re looking for a low usage Trijicon

 

[Texaslongshot]

I have never understood for 95% percent of people why they would want to have an aim point type optic over a LPVO. If you train the speed difference in a red dot and a LPVO will be null or fractions of fractions of seconds. So you would trade fractions of fractions of seconds for all of the advantages of a LPVO. Who wants to take a head shot or partially exposed target at 100 yards with a red dot vs a LPVO? Who wants to engaged someone at 300 yards with an aim point vs LPVO? I think that the popularity of the red dot type optics is actually a training scar from everyone training on short ranges from 0-50 yards where those shine but is not realistic of the uncertainty of real world engagements. If training took place on ranges from 0-400 yards i think things would be a lot different and why you see the 3 gun world totally embracing the LPVO. Now if i was a swat team member and my primary job was room clearing then yes i would go red dot. Other than that i will take a LPVO all day long!!

 

[Hoploman]

There's no difference in speed for me. Quality LPVO's have huge FOV and good eyebox and...if anything, gives a better view than a reddot due to less optic body occlusion. You get a ghost ring effect. Factor in they have an eye piece focus which is great for people with vision issues.

Only real advantage to the dot is unlimited eye relief. If you're going to shoot from some awkward possitions, dot is the way to go. Also, smaller size and weight. Positions like being on your side, crouched in some semi-fetal position behind a vehicle axle like in some Magpul Instructional DVD would demand the use of a dot.

Low end LPVO's are not the same, due to old style or poor design eye box, smaller FOV and tunnel vision effect. Those are NOT better or equal at 1x over a dot.

 

[wade2big]

I have never understood for 95% percent of people why they would want to have an aim point type optic over a LPVO. If you train the speed difference in a red dot and a LPVO will be null or fractions of fractions of seconds. So you would trade fractions of fractions of seconds for all of the advantages of a LPVO. Who wants to take a head shot or partially exposed target at 100 yards with a red dot vs a LPVO? Who wants to engaged someone at 300 yards with an aim point vs LPVO? I think that the popularity of the red dot type optics is actually a training scar from everyone training on short ranges from 0-50 yards where those shine but is not realistic of the uncertainty of real world engagements. If training took place on ranges from 0-400 yards i think things would be a lot different and why you see the 3 gun world totally embracing the LPVO. Now if i was a swat team member and my primary job was room clearing then yes i would go red dot. Other than that i will take a LPVO all day long!!

If I can see the target, I can hit it using a red dot. When targets are hard to see, that is when the LPVO is advantageous. Engaging a man at 300 yards in your example can be done easily with a AK47 and iron sites. Put him in scrub brush in a tree line at that distance and the LPVO magnification would definitely help.

i have both because I can, but my main rifle wears an Aimpoint because when and how I would need it in real life, the Aimpoint has many advantages over a scoped rifle.

 

[LawnMM]

After hours and hours of training and thousands of rounds the only advantage to a red dot is the weight.

Inside a hundred yards scope shadow and eye relief are irrelevant on man sized targets. Put the dot or crosshair on the target and squeeze the trigger.

 

[Texaslongshot]

If I can see the target, I can hit it using a red dot. When targets are hard to see, that is when the LPVO is advantageous. Engaging a man at 300 yards in your example can be done easily with a AK47 and iron sites. Put him in scrub brush in a tree line at that distance and the LPVO magnification would definitely help.

i have both because I can, but my main rifle wears an Aimpoint because when and how I would need it in real life, the Aimpoint has many advantages over a scoped rifle.

"If i can see the target i can hit it using a red dot". My question is can you see and hit targets from 200-400 yards with the same speed and accuracy as you can with your red dot? IF you can i tip my hat too you. For me a LPVO helps me tremendously at those ranges. Inside 100 yards i have found minuscule speed differences that I do not believe are even close to giving up for all of the benefits of a LPVO

Regarding engaging a man at 300 yards with an AK 47 and irons sight sure it can be done but can it be done better is the real question. You admit that if you put him in scrub bush in a tree line that a LPVO would defiantly help so is it going to hurt if he isn't? Also how are you going to predict if your in a gunfight with someone out in the open or in scrub brush or only partially exposed behind cover.

So i get it. Things are mission specific so if your a swat thats primarily room clearing or a rifle is solely for home defense then yea i get that but for almost everything else i think a LPVO gives huge versatility and increases your gunfighting ability over red dot.

You said that when and how you would need it in real life the aim point as many advantages. That could certainly be true. What are the many advantages that you see?

 

[MK20]

The real reason lots of folks run red dots is that lots of LE and mil training is heavy on CQB because that is a training intensive and perishable skill. Most combat for the vast majority of folks is not CQB though. I think that a good LPVO is the best compromise of something like an ACOG and a red dot.

 

[wade2big]

@Texaslongshot , 200-400 is a piece cake with an AR15 and a red dot zeroed at 200 yards shooting at 2/3 silhouettes shooting off the side of a fence post. I bet you could do the same.

My real life scenario is the crash in the night. My red dot is always on and ready to go. I would be engaging “bad guys” in or around my home. A scoped rifle is not an advantage in this scenario which would be the most likely I would deal with. I wouldn’t have to fiddle with the illumination knob on the LPVO. Everything would be up close and personal.

Beyond this, I agree with what you are saying as shooting further out is made easier with a magnified optic no doubt.

 

[Texaslongshot]

Wade2big,

Completely agree. Crash in the night up close and personal red dot could not be a better choice!!

 

[MK20]

Yep. Aimpoint.

 

[hypno02]

Zero speed difference between a good LPVO (like a razor) and a red dot. IF you practice.

Ok this is bad advice.

If you practice..with both...with today’s technology the rds will be faster.

Add dynamic positions into the drill? Rds will be faster.

Weak hand shooting? Rds will be faster.

5yrd range on a human silhouette? Best situation to justify they’re the same.

I have plenty of rounds downrange with the g2r, mk6, mk8, and nx8. To say any of those are equal to a compm4, romeo4m, or T2 in regards to speed is just plain foolish.

 

[LawnMM]

@Texaslongshot , 200-400 is a piece cake with an AR15 and a red dot zeroed at 200 yards shooting at 2/3 silhouettes shooting off the side of a fence post. I bet you could do the same.

My real life scenario is the crash in the night. My red dot is always on and ready to go. I would be engaging “bad guys” in or around my home. A scoped rifle is not an advantage in this scenario which would be the most likely I would deal with. I wouldn’t have to fiddle with the illumination knob on the LPVO. Everything would be up close and personal.

Beyond this, I agree with what you are saying as shooting further out is made easier with a magnified optic no doubt.

All y'all saying the red dot is best indoors, you have lights on those guns for nighttime, right?

Pick up your "always on" RDS and hit your wall with a light and let me know how ideal what happens next is in your mind.

Not saying they don't have a place, just saying that place is usually on a short rifle during daylight hours.

 

[rob.sfo]

All y'all saying the red dot is best indoors, you have lights on those guns for nighttime, right?

Pick up your "always on" RDS and hit your wall with a light and let me know how ideal what happens next is in your mind.

Not saying they don't have a place, just saying that place is usually on a short rifle during daylight hours.

I've been thinking of swapping my red dot for a 1x prism for this reason, and because I have an astigmatism. The prism has an etched reticle that works with or without illumination, and I think would work better in this scenario.

 

[wade2big]

All y'all saying the red dot is best indoors, you have lights on those guns for nighttime, right?

Pick up your "always on" RDS and hit your wall with a light and let me know how ideal what happens next is in your mind.

Not saying they don't have a place, just saying that place is usually on a short rifle during daylight hours.

We are indoors so ranges are short. If you happen to be startled enough to flash yourself in the mirror or hit the wall right in front of you with a flashlight, don’t be alarmed. You are close enough that you can look through your red dot sight and put the boogie man in the middle of the glass and still kick his ass.

i practice this very same thing with my son. He has a red dot on his rifle that doesn’t have the battery life of an Aimpoint. We turn it off and use it somewhat like a peep sight on closer in targets. We aren’t aiming, we are point shooting as soon as we get our “sight picture”. Much faster and plenty effective. Everything that goes bang isn’t a sniper rifle even though most on this site think they are.

 

[LawnMM]

Not what I'm talking about.

 

[wade2big]

Not what I'm talking about.

Clarify if you will.

 

[308pirate]

I'm considering changing my Aimpoint Comp M4 to a Vortex Razor 1-6. I've read you can see the dot well in daylight with the Vortex. How much speed do you lose in target acquisition of a red dot vs LPVO on low setting? I'm thinking it would be just as fast as long as I train with it. My eyes are also not quite what they used to be when I was younger, so that's why I'm considering the change.

I answered this question for myself by repeating the same set of basic drills 10 times with a reflex sight (Aimpoint PRO) and a LPVO with daylight bright red dot (Steiner P4Xi 1-4X).

I found a very slight difference in favor of the Aimpoint for the first 2- 3 reps then the LPVO closed the gap to a statistical zero. In other words, the difference is zero after a very short familiarization period.

You do need to make sure the scope's eyepiece focus is optimized for 1X use with both eyes open.

 

[308pirate]

Add dynamic positions into the drill? Rds will be faster.

Weak hand shooting? Rds will be faster.

Those two things are like 1% of the situations where you find yourself using a rifle.

You know what's really foolish? Using them to justify equipment choices.

 

[Luke]

I see it like this - even if you're a half second (heck, maybe even a full second) slower with a LPVO on 1x versus a dedicated red dot, having 4x, 6x, or 8x on tap is usually much more useful. I'm rarely clearing houses in Mosul and having quckdraw battles with armed bad guys, but I use a magnified optic to look for game, make more precise shots at distance, etc pretty much every time I take my rifle out.

 

[erwos]

Those two things are like 1% of the situations where you find yourself using a rifle.

You know what's really foolish? Using them to justify equipment choices.

This is a little unfair. Some people may genuinely be doing this more often than you seem to think, and for them, it's a real consideration. I mean, even if it's just training, he's still got a valid argument. That said, I have no problem switching shoulders and shooting both eyes open with an LPVO - really surprised me the first time I did it, but it was effortless. Non-standard positions is probably a better argument for a reflex sight given the eyebox issue some LPVOs have - guess I need to try doing some urban prone and other weirdness to see how it works out.

Anyways, back on topic, I think some of the... myths? confusion? on the LPVO speed topic stem from what was common in LPVOs a decade ago, vs what we have access to today. "True" flat 1x LPVOs were a lot more rare and expensive, illumination wasn't as good (especially on the lower end), there wasn't as much trust in scope durability, etc. Meanwhile, these days, you can buy sub-$500 LPVOs that are stupid easy to run both eyes open (Burris RT-8, PST Gen II 1-6x, Whiskey5 1-5x, Steiner p4xi, etc.), and even better stuff at $500-$1250. The gun community is generally very conservative, especially outside of competition circles, and new paradigms are slow to filter through. (Consider that, for a long time, the old and extremely expensive S&B Short Dot 1-4x was basically the cool guy choice for an LPVO.)

 

[308pirate]

This is a little unfair. Some people may genuinely be doing this more often than you seem to think, and for them, it's a real consideration.

Don't disagree. But that's not the way the statement I responded to was framed.

 

[LawnMM]

Clarify if you will.

Was hoping you might experiment and figure it out/experience it on your own.

I'm not talking about startling yourself in a mirror or lighting up a wall right in front of your face (why would you do that? ?)

However, if you're indoors and have a decent light on the gun, AND you've bothered to try it at night or in some sort of training curriculum you'll notice something else:

A good light reflecting even off living room distances will wash out the dot on a lot of optics.

Your point about centering the optic on the bad guy and firing is valid but you're still guessing.

Since we're pointing out pros and cons Nan etched reticle on an LVPO isn't prone to this.

You may wash out the illumination but the reticle is still clear as day. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen red dots with etched reticles to take advantage of this.

 

[wade2big]

Was hoping you might experiment and figure it out/experience it on your own.

I'm not talking about startling yourself in a mirror or lighting up a wall right in front of your face (why would you do that? ?)

However, if you're indoors and have a decent light on the gun, AND you've bothered to try it at night or in some sort of training curriculum you'll notice something else:

A good light reflecting even off living room distances will wash out the dot on a lot of optics.

Your point about centering the optic on the bad guy and firing is valid but you're still guessing.

Since we're pointing out pros and cons Nan etched reticle on an LVPO isn't prone to this.

You may wash out the illumination but the reticle is still clear as day. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen red dots with etched reticles to take advantage of this.

What you are saying can sure happen. The dot needs to be brighter than otherwise necessary or what you stated will happen. If this does happen because the site isn’t on bright enough, the bad guy through the sight and shoot method works wonderfully. You make a Valid point.

I have both a LPVO and a red dot. The LPVO equipped rifle is a more well rounded setup for range use, varmints,ass kicking, etc.
That being said, my Aimpoint equipped rifle stays close by more often than not.

 

[erwos]

You may wash out the illumination but the reticle is still clear as day. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen red dots with etched reticles to take advantage of this.

A re-release of the original dual-circle-reticle Vortex Spitfire 1x with a fiber optic aiming dot would be VERY compelling for any number of uses. I don't know if there's a technology issue with combining prism optics with FO illumination, but I'd be on board with one.

 

[Crang]

Was hoping you might experiment and figure it out/experience it on your own.

I'm not talking about startling yourself in a mirror or lighting up a wall right in front of your face (why would you do that? ?)

However, if you're indoors and have a decent light on the gun, AND you've bothered to try it at night or in some sort of training curriculum you'll notice something else:

A good light reflecting even off living room distances will wash out the dot on a lot of optics.

Your point about centering the optic on the bad guy and firing is valid but you're still guessing.

Since we're pointing out pros and cons Nan etched reticle on an LVPO isn't prone to this.

You may wash out the illumination but the reticle is still clear as day. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen red dots with etched reticles to take advantage of this.

Pretty low tech but for the house gun been experimenting with a ghost ring rear and one of these from Blitzkreig for the front. Both eyes open its maybe even a hair faster than a red dot, doesnt wash out when I hit the light, doesnt need batteries, lightest weight, etc. The longest shot for me is 30 feet so it doesnt take much. I love my red dots on carbines and lpvos for hunting and other things. With a same plane aperture rear its plenty accurate for the range as well on a shorty just flipping to the small aperture. Easy enough to snap shoot not even using the rear at house distances. Whats old is new again even if it fails on tacticool points. I admit it felt weird to ditch the optic but enjoying the experiment.

 

[dpb1776]

I have a Leupold vxr patrol 1.25-4 and an aimpoint patrol I have had both for a few years and used both in matches. I do run lights on both carbines but after using the leupold in two gun matches I started using it in indoor carbines matches also and have not noticed really an difference in speed between it and the aimpoint up close. I now actually use the LPVO equipped gun as my home defense and go to rifle now. I won't be getting rid of my aimpoint and it may find a home on a pistol caliber carbine soon. But I have no issue using a LPVO optic for home defense, course the aimpoint works fine also, play with both see what you like

 

[Hoploman]

If we're talking crash in the night....I don't even bother with dots and any optics or electronics nonsense.

My "go to" weapons are equipped with XS big dots. Plenty precise for any distance you could ever justify to a jury. No batteries. No on / off. No loss of zero. No breaking. No being too dim or too bright. No scope shadow or tube in the way. Less weight and bulk too.

Just a big dot out front. You know, like a good old fashion shotgun bead, but better. Super fast. It just plain works. It is the most reliable. It is by far the least cool, least sexy option. But practicality is like that. Boring but solid.

Dangerous game hunters knew what they were doing (or they would be dead).

Anyway - back on topic of red dot vs LPVO.

As others metioned, red dot might be slightly better when you aren't expecting a fight due to battery life, and this would be Aimpoint. However, LPVO or ACOG is better when you are. I wouldn't be too worried about it because if one is expecting trouble, one has time to flee, do something else or get armored up with a side arm, and get some other armed and armored buddies.

Assuming you're not instantly awoken by a crash and you are stumbling out of bed in your boxers to grab your rifle - the LPVO is going to be better. There is a reason why LPVO dominates some types of competition. It gives up virtually nothing up close at 1x, but has other big advantages at range.

 

[Gasgun]

Was hoping you might experiment and figure it out/experience it on your own.

I'm not talking about startling yourself in a mirror or lighting up a wall right in front of your face (why would you do that? ?)

However, if you're indoors and have a decent light on the gun, AND you've bothered to try it at night or in some sort of training curriculum you'll notice something else:

A good light reflecting even off living room distances will wash out the dot on a lot of optics.

Your point about centering the optic on the bad guy and firing is valid but you're still guessing.

Since we're pointing out pros and cons Nan etched reticle on an LVPO isn't prone to this.

You may wash out the illumination but the reticle is still clear as day. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen red dots with etched reticles to take advantage of this.

Seriously?

Do you really think that someone would mount a red dot and a light on a HD gun and not even bother to check to see if the illumination is set properly for use with the light?

That was the first thing I did. Even before zeroing it. In every room of the house.

It’s not rocket science.

 

[Downtown]

It's been mentioned, but battery life is a important consideration, assuming we're talking a civilian self defense weapon. Is that what we're talking about? Because I've more than one rifle. The one I'd grab at home in the middle of the night has an always on Aimpoint. Seems an obvious choice.

 

[tspinaker]

It's not for defense. My truck gun will have the Aimpoint on it and will always be on. The gun it will be going on is a 16" 5.56 that I will use for a variety of things. I was just trying to get an idea of what to expect with an LPVO.

 

[Downtown]

My "variety of things" rifle has a Razor 1-6. That seems perfect for that type of rifle. Does great in 3- gun and seems about as fast as an Aimpoint.

 

[tspinaker]

Thank you all for your input. It looks like I'll have to scoop up an LPVO after the holidays.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Ok this is bad advice.

If you practice..with both...with today’s technology the rds will be faster.

Add dynamic positions into the drill? Rds will be faster.

I suppose if by "dynamic positions" you mean you're in the middle of a hot game of Twister and suddenly need to shoot under a car that happens to be a Lamborghini without breaking position, then yes I'm sure an RDS is easier to use.

What are your first shot times with an RDS vs. LPVO at 5yds? 50yds? 80yds on a partial target?

 

[RollinCoal11]

Just went through this change myself. Went from Aimpoint T2 to a Swarovski 1-6. As far as speed goes it’s just a training issue. You will be just as fast with the lpvo as You would a red dot

 

[Delicatessen]

If you can try it out, lpvo red dot and fixed similar to elcan/bravo4/Trijicon style optic. For me I went from lpvo to the other 2 on ars. Red dot for things like 14.7” or pistols fixed prism on 18-20” ones. My eyes are not the best but no astigmatism to deal with and for close in movement/awkward position stuff the red dot was best followed by Trijicon. To be clear I have not tried the $2k+ lpvos.

 

[striped1]

The LBPO will be slightly slower, as you are looking through a longer tube. I shoot 3 gun with a lvpo and Steel challenge with a 9mm dot and a .22 lvpo. The 9mm dot is hands down faster. That said what you gain in real world versatility from the lvpo far makes up for the negligible real world time difference

 

[black5.3]

A lot of these arguments are kinda entertaining..... my contribution to the thread is: buy what you like running whether is be irons, rds, or lpvo and practice with it. Get professional training with it that will put you in stressed shooting situations like under time, shooting and moving, shooting from inside/around vehicles and from cover/concealment. If its a home defense gun only, take low light or nighttime shooting classes and training geared towards single man room/house clearing and then practice in your house. You may get weird looks from the wife but thats going to happen anyway. Don’t over complicate it and turn it into something it doesn’t have to be. Its your gun/optic and no one can tell you whats best for you. Good luck and know that you will probably have to experiment and spend some money before you find what works for you.