Rifle Scopes Speed of LPVO vs Red Dot
- Thread starter tspinaker
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1x on the Razor 1-6. An old pic, and I suck at through the scope pics, I had around but as you can see not much of the scope body is seen and it's a big eye box. You can see it best in the upper left. The right side is dark as there was a curtain there.
The one below is on 6x. The house is about 60 yards away if i remember correctly.
The one below is on 6x. The house is about 60 yards away if i remember correctly.
Really interesting discussion. I am far from an authority on kicking doors down, but I have a house, kids in that house and guns in that house. In other words, this particular problem has crossed my mind and I do train a little here and there.
I have experimented with holographic sights, reflex sights, LPVOs, OEGs and magnified prism scopes with bright illumination. If my life depends on it, I can make them all work. OEG type use with both eyes open and bright illuminated dot in the reticle works very well for my eyes somehow.
If I have to respond to a threat that is going to pop up at some undisclosed but nearby location, I am a little faster with non-magnified sights and a little faster with holographic sights than reflex sights. I suspect that my slight astigmatism plays a role in that.
For known drills, there does not seem to be any practical difference for me between any of these. However, I am not very fast to start with, so the optic is probably not the limiting factor.
If you think of this in terms of three sequential stage: detection, identification and engagement (assuming we are talking abuot clsoe distances), the one where there is a difference for me is detection. That is where I am faster with the holographic UH-1 (or EOTech although I do not own one right now, having switched to the rechargeable UH-1) than with anything else. I have a suspicion that the distorted dot in the reflex sight is slightly distracting for me. With identification and engagement, there does not seem to be any real difference for me.
Now, on flashlight use: there are probably different schools of thought on this and I am no expert. I took a couple of classes with flashlight and after that experience, I went and setup all the relevant parts of my house with dim night time lighting. I live in a very urban area, so there is no farm to protect and neighbors are near by. Given rather complicated geometry of the hallways, a handgun is probably my best bet, although I do have a couple of long guns on hand just in case, most critically a pump shotgun loaded with proper shot that will not take out half the neighborhood.
ILya
I have experimented with holographic sights, reflex sights, LPVOs, OEGs and magnified prism scopes with bright illumination. If my life depends on it, I can make them all work. OEG type use with both eyes open and bright illuminated dot in the reticle works very well for my eyes somehow.
If I have to respond to a threat that is going to pop up at some undisclosed but nearby location, I am a little faster with non-magnified sights and a little faster with holographic sights than reflex sights. I suspect that my slight astigmatism plays a role in that.
For known drills, there does not seem to be any practical difference for me between any of these. However, I am not very fast to start with, so the optic is probably not the limiting factor.
If you think of this in terms of three sequential stage: detection, identification and engagement (assuming we are talking abuot clsoe distances), the one where there is a difference for me is detection. That is where I am faster with the holographic UH-1 (or EOTech although I do not own one right now, having switched to the rechargeable UH-1) than with anything else. I have a suspicion that the distorted dot in the reflex sight is slightly distracting for me. With identification and engagement, there does not seem to be any real difference for me.
Now, on flashlight use: there are probably different schools of thought on this and I am no expert. I took a couple of classes with flashlight and after that experience, I went and setup all the relevant parts of my house with dim night time lighting. I live in a very urban area, so there is no farm to protect and neighbors are near by. Given rather complicated geometry of the hallways, a handgun is probably my best bet, although I do have a couple of long guns on hand just in case, most critically a pump shotgun loaded with proper shot that will not take out half the neighborhood.
ILya
You are in my layman‘s opinion spot on about:
Bump in the night inside my home, pistol with a bright white light I think is my best option. Far more maneuverable and easier for me to get in my hand in the middle of the night as it is right beside me. I guess I could sleep with an AR right beside the bed but I don’t. I train with my G19 with TLR7 and am very proficient with it. I could, if I wanted, keep a 33rnd magazine in it while I dream about Hilldawg going to prison and buying a good used WRX to tear up and down the mountain....
Outside is a different matter and for the aforementioned rural use a rifle is the best tool.
Something else I’m not sure has been explored completely is an etched reticle vs. a light created dot.
A reticle will work with no battery and with a white light at night is very usable. Illuminated is better still but knowing if the world goes to $#a+ and no batteries are available then the optic is at least still viable Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Maybe some pictures can be taken of LPVO reticles with white lights at night to see the true story.
This is a very good and informative thread, lets keep the purse swinging at bay and explore with open minds what is best depending on each individual’s circumstances.
So, after everyone quits arguing over nuance and minutiae what have you decided on?
I am going to keep my RDS for another gun, but I'm going to go with an LPVO. It seems like there are too many advantages not to.
Well, I slept on it and I did a thing.
I have been eyeing the Bushnell Elite 1-8.5s @gr8fuldoug has had on sale for a couple of weeks. I emailed then called him and he told me he has gone from 800 down to 50 left....
I asked if there was such a thing as an affordable 34mm scope mount and he pointed me at the Steiner.
Dang if that yankee
Now the question... put the 1-8.5x on the 10.5s and have possibly the baddest azz short ARs in my AO or put the 1x4s on the shorties and the new Bushnells on the 16” carbines...
https://cameralandny.com/shop/bushn...792c-0135-0d94-00163e9110c0?variation=1588817
Congrats on your binge purchasing! ?
Up to you on what optic goes on your 10.5”... experiment and let us know!
You do know how to add dimensions or tangents to a discussion... relevant ones though, I like it.
Illuminated dot/reticle hands down beats an otherwise etched/non-illuminated reticle with white light use.
The human eye looks for and is drawn to what stands out as odd. The more flagrant the better. In your house with a non illuminated reticle and white light, you can often pick out the reticle easily against your whitish drywall. (If you have darker colored walls or vertical wood paneling or such it makes it even worse) But you’re still looking for a black straight fine line among a lot of shadows and straight lines in your house. There is no flagrant CONTRAST.
This is where red dots literally shine... and catch your attention when tenths of seconds matter. You don’t have to hunt for it or “find it” in the scope... it’s just THERE.
There is a marked difference between playing around w optics in your house or static pictures (which can be very useful like some above) v under even timed competition pressure and even more difference in a lethal force encounter. A poster above (a cop I believe) pointed out a good lesson in why LPVOs sound good until dynamic situations are introduced to the mix. This of course assumes we’re talking about INSIDE your house or in your backyard/driveway.
Now for the battery and SHTF issue... if the S really HTF where battery supply is a big issue then you’ve immediately changed your location of likely use of the weapon from just your house and immediate surroundings to your block or neighborhood to moving counties or states away. (which then means you’re no longer relying on your previous assumptions about where you were likely to use your weapon in which case your optics and even weapon choice might change ) But if you still want a RDS then, I’d suggest an Aimpoint M4s or M5s. AA or AAA batteries that last 4+ years constant on and you can get rechargeables to use till you die. I’m not aware of rechargeable button type batteries that render virtually all illuminated scopes’ illumination worthless. Trijicon illumination would be a viable option if you’re planning that way.
There has not been all that much development with 1x prisms scopes. Most of what is out there is comparatively low end, but that may be finally changing. I am seeing some development from the OEMs that will make them a little faster to use. SwampFox seems to have a pretty decent one coming out, but we'll see how it does.
Fundamentally, I want something with a fiber optic light pipe or some other means of generating a bright dot in a 1x prism scope. While the etched reticle is clearly visible and all, it is also slower.
The eyepiece has to be a little bigger to have wide FOV with forgiving eye position as well. Eyepiece also has to be adjustable, so that you can tune some distortion out.
A few years ago, Trijicon said they were working on a 1x Compact ACOG, but that never materialized somehow. Then, they introduced the MRO, so perhaps they decided to focus on an Aimpoint Micro competitor.
Vortex Spitfire (and other clones from the same OEM) are effectively first generation products. They work fine, reticles need to be better thought out and FOV needs to be higher. They have around 80ft @ 100 yards FOV (compare to 100-120 on good LPVOs), which does slow you down a little. That's a nice compact solution for people with sever astigmatism, but I really want to see what Gen 2 will look like.
Generally, for use with a flashlight, I have been experimenting with where a red dot sight should be positioned and decided that I want right around the front of the receiver. At close distances, I am hitting pretty much the same spot whether the illuminated dot is on or not. Putting the red dot a little further from my eye makes the housing look kind of like a ghost ring. When the sight is closer to my eye it does not work as well.
ILya
Beyond CQB it kinda goes out of the window IMO and for CQB point shooting is fastest. Depends on how accurate you need to be though.
I completely get what you’re putting down except...
with a circle reticle there is a good amount of contrast. Obviously illumination is better, not arguing that.
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Good pics. Thx ??
I suggest trying them on non sheen/non-reflective materials, with non-reflective backgrounds... like cabelas camo hunting patterns, work jean jackets, Sports jerseys, fifteen feet out your back deck, in your garage, etc Then have someone arbitrarily turn the illumination on or off on you (so it’s a surprise) do it moving quickly remaining “target focused” and see if you really pick up the reticle.
And yes, a lot of this goes out the window in a real life situation. A co worker recently was in an OIS and didn’t hit an armed male from 2-3 yards w his duty handgun. And he wonders why I train a lot lol. In most ways my training helped me prevail in my situations, in other ways I got lucky.
Of your pics I’d note this... to me at least, the first pic BEGINS to illustrate my point, that the reticle begins to blend or not be distinct with the background/target. Also I’d note the red dot doesn’t seem to be set on an appropriately bright setting for nighttime WML use.
Please remember I’m a fan of LPVO and they have a great role but I’d make sure they have a legit “daylight bright” center circle or red dot to augment the etched reticle.
What scope was that?
And thanks for encouraging the discussion. Now I’m going to have to revisit my LPVO next week with all this in mind.
It’s the SWFA SS1-4HD FFP that was introduced in 2011.
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While I agree, on paper, the FOV numbers look bad. But in actual use with both eyes open, it's a not as big a deal as it seems. The Spitfire AR does a better job of making the housing "disappear" compared to the original Spitfire. Taking off the lens cap vs just flipping it open, makes a difference too. It would be nice if it was brighter though.
My friend Karen (an NRA instructor, Ducati Monster rider and all around badazz) has a 19 WRX in blue and it is unbelievable!@Lawless....everybody should have a hill-climb/rally car
I want an older one but finding one that is unmolested will be hard.
I've been watching prices on bugeye STI's and Evo 9's for years, but good ones aren't getting any cheaper.
I think for what they are intended for, DMR type use, they will work great. These wont be dialed, holding on the reticle will be the way they are used. It’s still just a ruler in front of your eyes.
I agree that standard mil hashes in addition to the shoulder width stuff would have been better.
I agree that standard mil hashes in addition to the shoulder width stuff would have been better.
Any opinions for a 4x32 ACOG with an RMR? Seriously debating between this combo and an NX8/Kahles/Razor E. Price is roughly similar with mounts.
Seen a few mentions of the ACOG/RMR combo, but nothing really comparing it directly to quality LPVO.
Seen a few mentions of the ACOG/RMR combo, but nothing really comparing it directly to quality LPVO.
That in a 30mm tube at about 19 oz or le
The RMR is a bit too high on those setups for my tastes because no one makes a low enough mount for the ACOG. I have a DPP piggybacking my LPVO but my scope mount is a low 1.125 high so it works. It somewhat takes the LPVO out of the 1x game at that height but that's what the DPP is for, but when I go prone at 6x the better cheekwekd of the 1.1 high mount is appreciated. It works for me. YMMV
This subject is like a wave. It seems like most folks will do Red Dot for a bit, get frustrated with lack of mag, then switch to LPVO, get frustrated with eyebox, then switch back... ad infinitum.
It's a shame that the NXS 1-4 isn't made anymore. On 1x, the exit pupil was big enough that you could practically use it like a dot. Plus it didn't have the janky reticle of the Accupoints.
It's a shame that the NXS 1-4 isn't made anymore. On 1x, the exit pupil was big enough that you could practically use it like a dot. Plus it didn't have the janky reticle of the Accupoints.
Yeah, it's a good alternative. I was lucky enough to scoop up an NXS off ebay for like 800, but the supply on 'em is running out, but it's getting harder and harder to find that original sauce.
Well, I ended up sending the Bushnells back. The glass was excellent and the turrets felt awesome. The reticle however was useless (to me) on 1x unless illumination was on.
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Well I’m not a bushnell hater at all. The Pro is extremely nice.I've toyed with the "plain" DMR II, but thought I'd wait. In no hurry at this moment. But thanks for that nano-review
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Own both PST II 1-6 and several red dots, one with 3x magnifier. I’ve never been a fan of the school of thought that if you can hit it with a red dot, no magnification is needed. I can hit a 300 yard silhouette no problem but in the real world I would sure as hell prefer to know exactly what I’m trying to hit beforehand. Yes magnifiers are a thing but by the time you add one, you’re at the weight of a variable 1-whatever and 6x or higher beats 3x.
I will add that for my eyes, the PST II is true 1x in close quarters because outside, the 1x seems ever so slightly less zoomed than the naked eye. I actually put it on 1.1x or so outdoors to compensate.
I will add that for my eyes, the PST II is true 1x in close quarters because outside, the 1x seems ever so slightly less zoomed than the naked eye. I actually put it on 1.1x or so outdoors to compensate.
I agree that in some occasions I would prefer a red dot over an optic that can magnify, but I disagree with the idea that magnified optics are only useful when you can't see the target. Sometimes it's nice to be able to resolve the target in detail, even when it's only 200m away.
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